Tried posting this in the SBR section and got crickets, thought I'd try one last time here.

I just purchased one with the direct thread setup so I'm gathering it's an older one but I'm really having trouble finding much info on them. I know there are several generations out there but I want to know the differences. Anyone know of a good source for this info?

I am wishing like hell they would bring in the B & T  TP .380.....I have a friend who would just love one.

I wouldn't mind a TP 9.....

Have you shot it yet?  Do you like it?

Haven't even filed yet.

Dang!  I am dying to know what you think...that is one kick ass looking piece.

Thx, I really want to know what year they were imported before they updated the barrel to the 3 lug. Also, I'm farely certain DSA duracoated it back in the day. I should be able the confirm that at least. The suppressor says something about being manufactured by dsa for B @ T.

IIRC your TP9 was a demo model for DS Arms.  That camo job is very specific.  I will try to find some pictures on a hard drive for you.  I was told the owner of DS Arms was friends with Karl and brought the TP9s and some parts in.  But, they didn't push the brand hard enough and DS Arms stopped carrying them.  

You would have what would be the second gen of the DS Arms imports if it has the tri-lug barrel.  The first batch had the threaded barrel extension.  The current production TP9s have a few updates:  ambidextrous mag release, coated bolt carrier, ghost ring rear sight, riveted NOT bolted side rail from factory, and an insert for the stock axel pin.  Just about everything BUT the Navy selector.  

I started a thread a little lower in this section about the generations of TP9s.  Hopefully we'll get a response.  


How much was the asking price for the package?

ETA:  I will check some serial numbers for the approximate date of the change over.  Forgot to respond to that part.

 You *might* have luck calling DS Arms.  They pretty much told me to go fuck myself when the new TP9 I purchased didn't come with an owner's manual and I called to request one.  

So, I emailed B+T in Thun and Karl Brugger himself responded and mailed me a manual from Switzerland.  He was less than happy with DS Arms at  that point. I'm pretty sure they had a falling out.

My TP9 is a DSA first gen gun with the threaded muzzle and has the US 07 prefix with a 100XX serial number.

I know DSA changed to the gen 2 three lug muzzle model pretty quickly, and virtually every DSA gun I've seen has been the later gen 2.

I have a new gen and that's what my biggest gripe is, looks wise I want the selector not the cross bolt.

I would buy another just for that cosmetic feature

Thx for all that info. This barrel is threaded and the suppressor was made for it.

I got it for $1800 before stamps. The gun store I bought it from was having a fire sale on all class 3 items since they are closing. I had to sell some pistols to afford it but I'm still super excited.

Cha-ching
Damn I want one, but damn they're expensive.
Perfect cross between a pistol and a subgun.

Double tap.

Double double tap.

Gun and can?!?!
Damn man, you stole that.

If so Daaaaaamn

Yep, I'm not the kind of guy that makes purchases for that much but I couldn't pass on it.

Was yours a factory SBR?

No, it was a regular Title 1 pistol to start with.

I wanted one of the factory SBRs with the built in vertical grip instead of the rail, but my dealer couldn't get one. DSA offered them but every time he tried to order one he either got the runaround or was told they were out of stock.

^{ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!!!!?????}


$1800????!!!!!!

I can actually believe the price he paid.

First it is a used Title 2 SBR with a used suppressor, meaning TWO tax stamps right out of the gate which automatically limits the number of people who will even think about buying it. It is also a used gun floating on the used gun price market.

Second it could be on second hand hard form 4s, which means an out of state buyer might have to pay a two more $200 transfer stamps on both it and the can, further adding to the acquisition cost and limiting its appeal to "normies".

Third it is an unusual, uncommon weapon with severely limited "name recognition" with "normies" despite it also being in a non-standard "custom" paint finish. Combine that with very rare, very expensive parts and magazines and you have the makings of a shelf warmer for many gun stores if it isn't priced to move.

Fourth the suppressor is technically "used" (and used suppressors are practically given away in most markets) as well as it being a dedicated can with no adapters that can only be used with that specific gun.

Fifth, and something only us nuts would know, is that it is a first gen gun that doesn't have the benefits of the later gen 2 and 2.5 guns. It also will have the DSA rollmark rather than a B&T USA rollmark. Again, collector nut stuff only.

And Sixth it may not have come with the "kit" that early DSA guns came with (OP doesn't show it, but it may have it). My DSA came with a hard case, three mags (two 30s and one 15 round mags), a single point sling, user manual and the muzzle specific thread protector.

All of that taken into consideration $1800 for that package used is about right IMO.

Personally I myself would only pay about five hundred bucks or so (about half what they went for new) for the used can right now, even with a double stamp transfer.

EDIT: Something else to consider is that these DSA guns were NOT $1800 MSRP guns like the current TP9's being sold by B&T. I got mine brand new the first year they were available for right around $1100. I think the MSRP on them from DSA was like $1200. Then when DSA got out of the game they and a bunch of their wholesalers liquidated the remaining stock at sub $1000 prices. I remember seeing green and tan guns selling on clearance from Zanders for like $800.

The TP9's price on the used market slowly grew to be around $1500, then it got a MASSIVE price jump when B&T started bringing in the new ones.

Brownells just listed a TP9 for $1750. They're becoming more popular. It went from "no fucking way" to "maybe some day" in my book.

The rifle is not used and it set on there shelf for 10+ years at $3600 for the package. I got it for 50% off. Shooters supply in Louisville KY has all remaining class III items on this sale. The can says licensed by brumer and thomet for DSA. The rifle had B&T USA on it and doesn't say DSA on it (small chance I missed this). It comes with the plastic case, sling, thread protector and one 15 round mag. Plus the 30 pictured.

I sent off for my two stamps today and I'm simply ecstatic

I will be over the moon as long as its reliable, and fingers crossed, I hope it's quite.

It should say DS Arms on the ejector side between the pins on the lower receiver. It also SHOULDN'T say B&T USA as that entity did not exist until just recently... unless that gun has a new replacement upper shell on it, which would be odd. The old upper shells say B&T Brugger and Thomet AG (which is the original Swiss company).

So if that gun and can were both unfired and on form 3's then that is indeed one rare bird... I'm kind of amazed it sat unfired and unsold for so long. My guess is the original SOT didn't advertise online as that pair would have been sold long ago even at $2500+. Hell the original MSRP on the Rotex cans was $1100 ten years ago.

That is what the new B&T USA gen 2.5 guns MSRP at. Everyone who lists them lists them at MSRP now as they are still very rare 'special order' guns.

Sadly I expect them to follow the same trajectory as the DSA guns... people who really want them will buy them, then the remainder will warm shelves until they clearance them out and discontinue them again.

Which is funny to me because it seemed like nobody wanted them the first time, then as soon as they discontinued them everybody wanted one... so they bring them back at a jacked up price point and bloop nobody wants them again.

Again, thx for the info. I most likely saw it today for the last time until I'm approved. Gun store was truly brick and mortar and did not do online sales, also they had a reputation for high prices and shitty attitudes, which seemed to have helped me in this case. I wish I would have taken better pics of the receiver. I'v been looking at so many online, sounds like I must be mistaken on. I'll be sure to update when I have the correct info.

Don't feel too bad about missing the DSA markings. The text block on my gen 1 is super light / shallow and not to the same size, font or depth quality as the Swiss markings.

Something else to look for is if it has the pistol notch rear sight or the actual rifle peep aperture rear sight. My gen 1 was a pistol and as such came with the pistol notch rear. I had to order my peep rear from DSA along with my stock after my form 1 came back.

Mine has the notched sights and it actually on a form 4. Does this mean it's not a factory SBR?

The iron sights on these things are kind of garbage, but you still might want to track down the rifle peep sight just to be "correct" for an SBR.

As to the gun being a "factory" SBR, as I understand it all the TP9's entered the US as pistols and were converted to SBRs by DSA. The import regulations to bring in SBRs from B&T are pretty thick, and if I remember right the true Title 2 guns were the ones with the built in vertical grips... and they were hens teeth to find. My dealer thought that perhaps those guns were LEO only, hence why we got the runaround on them when trying to order one years ago.

Edit: and does the gun transfer to you in a form 4 or is it currently on a form 4? There is a technical difference.

I completed a form 4.

Which you would have to do in both cases, and you should have filled out two separate form 4's (one for the gun and a second for the suppressor). My question was the current status of the gun (and by extension the can)... had someone already registered them previously or have they sat in that dealer's inventory for ten years since coming from DSA on a form 3?

I'm just still trying to process how this pair sat unsold / untransferred for so long. It allowed you to get a hell of a package but sheesh that original SOT must have been one hell of a terrible businessman.

Yea I actually filled out three of them. The TP9, Rotex can and I got a Benelli M2 Entry tactical 14" sbs for $650 also

The form 4s for the Tp9 and suppressor both show DS Arms as the manufacturer. So I guess that means it is not a factory SBR.

That makes perfect sense, as all Title II since 1968 may only be imported for LE/government use. The only way to import a pistol frame with a front VFG would be as a Title II firearm.

I own two of the DSA imports with the original threaded muzzle shrouds. For the record I paid $800 each for them. One is SBR's and one remains in pistol form. The gun you're buying is not a "factory" SBR, As those were not imported except as full auto dealer samples. You're probably looking at a SBR put together by a dealer that was never engraved with the maker info, which happens occasionally when SOTs build stuff for sample/display. DSA did have some custom duracoat jobs they brought out - I saw a digicam one, as well as a bright orange one and a yellow one with flames. They did not have DSA stamps on the side, as I recall. When you get it, check the bolt or barrel.  I think all in you did ok on the deal. The current price from B&T is stupid considering you're looking at about $22-2300 for a niche SBR. I really like mine (as well as my ability to run standard suppressor). It's a fun Gun and suppressed well, though the Rotex is really not the quietest can. Nevertheless, it'll still be hearing safe. Also, you can buy a true MP9 upper from several sources with the MP9 markings and ghost ring sight.

The switch to Gen 2 was almost immediate because it ran afoul of the ATFs policy of not permitting importation of firearms with threaded barrels. From what I understand, some of the first gen were even recalled to be changed to the nonstandard tri-lug because, at the time, there were no compatible silencers. I don't imaging there are many of the early gens out in the wild. Other companies, like CZ, import with non threaded barrels or with no barrels and add threaded barrels later.

Ive always wondered if someone could build me a 22tcm barrel for this.  Even at a high cost I would be interested in trying it but I have no idea who would be able to make it.

If you remove that first "1", I may consider it.

I shot one today, the pistol version.

Not just no, but hell no!

Trigger is utter shit, worse than an M&P....not kidding.
Sights are crap too. But I would not expect....wait....at $1700, yes I would.

too many little stamped parts for that kind of $...IMHO.

$800 is pushing it, If it were $600 ish....maybe, as long as the trigger work is not too expensive.

Due to the design of the mechanism, I doubt there is anything you can do to "improve" the TP9 trigger. Its a threadbare basic submachine gun trigger slightly altered to be semi only. For what it is worth pretty much all subgun semi clones have terrible triggers... Uzis, HKs, CZ Scorpions, Mac clones (shudder).

I think the "new" price of the TP9 is going to kill it in the US. It doesn't have the media cache the MP5K has, the design is too complex and nonstandard to compete with the bargain basement Scorpion, and it doesn't have the cheap surplus parts supply of the old Uzi. Heck, it doesn't even have a decent option for adding a factory style vertical pin handle grip. They are very much a niche "enthusiast" gun... even moreso than their newer line brothers (that cost just as much).

AWESOME Deal!

That plus there's not much in the way of suppressor options at the moment.
It really does make me wonder though, I see a fair amount of APC9's around, but that's just a blow back 9mm. They're also considerably more expensive.
The TP9 is lighter, more compact and cheaper but I see less of them. Not sure why. It may be because of the tri-lug/ threaded barrel options.

Sorry for the delay!  OPs pictures are down so I can't compare the differences in the finish around the rear sights.  I want the one with flames!



220_2018 by Joe Blow, on Flickr

I wonder if that flamejob gun has a built-in front grip, since it has the little rail adapter addon on it?

I believe it is a TP9 by the pistol rear sight. I'm going to check my pictures to see if the first MP9 DS Arms imported and exhibited has the ghost ring or pistol rear sight.

ETA:  Probably a TP9.  This is the MP9 DS Arms was demoing when they started import.  The second pic has the GR sight.

TMP001

TMP002

Thanks for the follow-up. Mine has the ACU pattern, pistol rear sights and a direct threaded suppressor. My suppressor does not have the added rail. I'll see if I can get the pics back up.