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Posted: 7/27/2014 8:16:08 PM EDT
[#1]
sounds like you need the desicsant and a good dehumidifier.
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Posted: 7/27/2014 8:18:03 PM EDT
[#2]
What is the humidity level inside and outside the safe?
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Posted: 7/27/2014 8:49:02 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm not sure what's going on. As far as m limited understanding about such things go, I don't believe the golden rod actually removes water.
Rather, I believe the idea is that by raising the temp, it lowers the relative humidity. In other words, by making the air warmer, it can hold more water before reaching saturation. I don't believe that it actually increases the amount of water in the air, but I don't know that. I have a couple hard drives in my safe, which might act like golden rods. My safe is in the above ground living area, and I can go months without recharging my single, large rechargeable dehumidifier (plug int to recharge). The room is 77 degrees and the safe is 79 degrees at 47% at the top. FWIW, I try to keep the humidity between 40% and 50%. If it goes too low, I take the dehumidifier out. I've never had it go above 50% with the humidifier in place. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:32:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what's going on. As far as m limited understanding about such things go, I don't believe the golden rod actually removes water. Rather, I believe the idea is that by raising the temp, it lowers the relative humidity. In other words, by making the air warmer, it can hold more water before reaching saturation. I don't believe that it actually increases the amount of water in the air, but I don't know that. I have a couple hard drives in my safe, which might act like golden rods. My safe is in the above ground living area, and I can go months without recharging my single, large rechargeable dehumidifier (plug int to recharge). The room is 77 degrees and the safe is 79 degrees at 47% at the top. FWIW, I try to keep the humidity between 40% and 50%. If it goes too low, I take the dehumidifier out. I've never had it go above 50% with the humidifier in place. That's exactly what the goldenrod does, minimize the risk of condensation (which, unless you keep your safe in a garage or other unheated portion of your house, is IMO not really a concern) I use Drierite's color-changing calcium sulfate product, in a few plastic containers with holes in their lids, and just recharge when it turns pink (i.e. stick in oven at 425 for an hour or so). I bought a 5 lb jar years ago, gave half of it away. About $10/lb. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:00:27 AM EDT
[#5]
As others said, the golden rod just raises the temp, so presumably the humidity is high in your basement. I have a big Eva Dry in my safe and I only need to charge it every few months, because I run a dehumidifier that keeps the basement around 40% humidity.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:22:51 AM EDT
[#6]
I use two of the large Eva-dry's in my gun safe and the safe is in the home with central air and heat and I still have to recharge both without fail every two weeks.
Strange this thread came up because not only am I going to buy a dehumidifying rod today I am also going to run electrical power to my led Litetechauto lighting kit as well. I still intend to use both Eva-Dry's and it will be interesting to see how long they last before a recharge after placing the rod. I do enter my safe at least once every day. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:50:11 PM EDT
[#7]
This situation does make sense. When you raise the temperature in the safe with the Dryrod, you create a low pressure zone. The higher pressure cold and humid air in the surroundings are drawn to the dry warm places, and unless the door is air-tight, there would be a constant circulation. That natural force to bring environmental equilibrium would draw the moisture to the safe interior.
You can read a bit more about dew-point and humidity in some posts HERE. To prove the idea, shut off the Dryrod, dry the desiccant packs, and see how if they last longer. You should really need one solution or the other. The two approaches are fighting each other. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 10:32:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This situation does make sense. When you raise the temperature in the safe with the Dryrod, you create a low pressure zone. The higher pressure cold and humid air in the surroundings are drawn to the dry warm places, and unless the door is air-tight, there would be a constant circulation. That natural force to bring environmental equilibrium would draw the moisture to the safe interior. You can read a bit more about dew-point and humidity in some posts HERE. To prove the idea, shut off the Dryrod, dry the desiccant packs, and see how if they last longer. You should really need one solution or the other. The two approaches are fighting each other. Unless the door is airtight you're not creating a low-pressure zone in your safe with a golden rod. Not a measurable one, anyway. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 1:07:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless the door is airtight you're not creating a low-pressure zone in your safe with a golden rod. Not a measurable one, anyway. well, I'll defer to the Ideal Gas Law... PV=nRT... Pressure is directly proportional to Temperature. 5 degrees may not sound like much, but it would result in a pressure differential that will induce flow. It may not be a hurricane, but elevated temperature does result in pressure differentials that change air density. That density change dives air flow. The pressure differential may not be measurable, because the leaky door seals are allowing the flow of air to continuously equalize the environment. That equalizing flow, however small, is carrying moist air. It's a basic law that some guy named Boyle discovered (with help). Small temperature differences can have very powerful effect, it's what drives the weather of the world. Just because you can't see it, doesn't diminish it's power or existence. Do the test I suggested. It may be enlightening... I'm just offering a logical scientific explanation. Could be totally wrong if there are other variables in the environmental equation that we don't know about. Regardless, there is a logical explanation based on science. The saturation of desiccant packs at such a high rate is not normal, and the most notable quantifiable influence is the presence of a heating element. Then again, maybe it's just a bunch of cockroaches pissing on the desiccant packs and laughing their asses off. |
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Posted: 8/2/2014 11:15:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This situation does make sense. When you raise the temperature in the safe with the Dryrod, you create a low pressure zone. The higher pressure cold and humid air in the surroundings are drawn to the dry warm places, and unless the door is air-tight, there would be a constant circulation. That natural force to bring environmental equilibrium would draw the moisture to the safe interior. You can read a bit more about dew-point and humidity in some posts HERE. To prove the idea, shut off the Dryrod, dry the desiccant packs, and see how if they last longer. You should really need one solution or the other. The two approaches are fighting each other. I experienced something very similar several years back. I hypothesized along the same lines. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 8:48:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well, I'll defer to the Ideal Gas Law... PV=nRT... Pressure is directly proportional to Temperature. 5 degrees may not sound like much, but it would result in a pressure differential that will induce flow. It may not be a hurricane, but elevated temperature does result in pressure differentials that change air density. That density change dives air flow. The pressure differential may not be measurable, because the leaky door seals are allowing the flow of air to continuously equalize the environment. That equalizing flow, however small, is carrying moist air. It's a basic law that some guy named Boyle discovered (with help). Small temperature differences can have very powerful effect, it's what drives the weather of the world. Just because you can't see it, doesn't diminish it's power or existence. Do the test I suggested. It may be enlightening... I'm just offering a logical scientific explanation. Could be totally wrong if there are other variables in the environmental equation that we don't know about. Regardless, there is a logical explanation based on science. The saturation of desiccant packs at such a high rate is not normal, and the most notable quantifiable influence is the presence of a heating element. Then again, maybe it's just a bunch of cockroaches pissing on the desiccant packs and laughing their asses off. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless the door is airtight you're not creating a low-pressure zone in your safe with a golden rod. Not a measurable one, anyway. well, I'll defer to the Ideal Gas Law... PV=nRT... Pressure is directly proportional to Temperature. 5 degrees may not sound like much, but it would result in a pressure differential that will induce flow. It may not be a hurricane, but elevated temperature does result in pressure differentials that change air density. That density change dives air flow. The pressure differential may not be measurable, because the leaky door seals are allowing the flow of air to continuously equalize the environment. That equalizing flow, however small, is carrying moist air. It's a basic law that some guy named Boyle discovered (with help). Small temperature differences can have very powerful effect, it's what drives the weather of the world. Just because you can't see it, doesn't diminish it's power or existence. Do the test I suggested. It may be enlightening... I'm just offering a logical scientific explanation. Could be totally wrong if there are other variables in the environmental equation that we don't know about. Regardless, there is a logical explanation based on science. The saturation of desiccant packs at such a high rate is not normal, and the most notable quantifiable influence is the presence of a heating element. Then again, maybe it's just a bunch of cockroaches pissing on the desiccant packs and laughing their asses off. I'm not typically one to argue, but if "T" increases (using a dry rod), then "P" will increase also, as "V", "n", and "R" are all constants. So an increase in temp would result in an increase in pressure inside the safe, making a high pressure zone, no? You'd think this would in turn keep any outside cooler, moist air out even more. Also, other than the relationship of an increase in temp raising dew point, I think the main purpose of the dry rods in a safe is to cause circulation within the safe. You put the dry rod in the bottom of your safe, the cooler, denser air within the safe is heated up by the dry rod, causing it to rise within the safe and create circulation inside of the safe. This avoids having a cool, damp pocket of air stagnate and cause rust in the lower portion of your safe. Also, the circulation could cause your dehumidifiers to pick up more of the moisture within the safe since that air is being moved around inside. Just my thoughts on it, could be wrong, could be right. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 4:03:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I use a Golden Rod in my safe along with 5 of the remington type plug in units. With the Golden Rod plugged in I am having to recharge the dessicant every 7 days. When I unplug the Golden Rod and use the Dessicant Plug ins separately they last 10 to 14 days. The safe is in an air conditioned basement that is finished. Is it possible the golden rod is heating the inside enough that when I open the door cold are is mixing inside with the warm air causing condensation; this in turn is causing the dessicant plug ins to fill up faster? In the Winter with the heater on I am lasting about two weeks using both. Sounds to me like you just have a humid climate in the basement, maybe get a bigger and more of the Eva Dry dehumidifiers. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 4:35:26 PM EDT
[#13]
If T goes up, so does P or V because they're on opposite sides of the equation. If anything you would create higher pressure. I think you're on the right track, but just thinking about it a bit wrong. I think the answer here is that the increased air temperature will cause the air in the safe to rise and pull cold air in the bottom. Just like when I get in a hot shower and a cold breeze always comes under the curtain. Something has to fill in behind the rising hot air. The goldenrod is creating a draft.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well, I'll defer to the Ideal Gas Law... PV=nRT... Pressure is directly proportional to Temperature. 5 degrees may not sound like much, but it would result in a pressure differential that will induce flow. It may not be a hurricane, but elevated temperature does result in pressure differentials that change air density. That density change dives air flow. The pressure differential may not be measurable, because the leaky door seals are allowing the flow of air to continuously equalize the environment. That equalizing flow, however small, is carrying moist air. It's a basic law that some guy named Boyle discovered (with help). Small temperature differences can have very powerful effect, it's what drives the weather of the world. Just because you can't see it, doesn't diminish it's power or existence. Do the test I suggested. It may be enlightening... I'm just offering a logical scientific explanation. Could be totally wrong if there are other variables in the environmental equation that we don't know about. Regardless, there is a logical explanation based on science. The saturation of desiccant packs at such a high rate is not normal, and the most notable quantifiable influence is the presence of a heating element. Then again, maybe it's just a bunch of cockroaches pissing on the desiccant packs and laughing their asses off. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 5:15:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If T goes up, so does P or V because they're on opposite sides of the equation. If anything you would create higher pressure. I think you're on the right track, but just thinking about it a bit wrong. I think the answer here is that the increased air temperature will cause the air in the safe to rise and pull cold air in the bottom. Just like when I get in a hot shower and a cold breeze always comes under the curtain. Something has to fill in behind the rising hot air. The goldenrod is creating a draft. Sorry, I should have been more technically explicit. I hate it when I make a hasty technical explanation, excuse me. We don't have a perfect seal... so Pressure is basically a constant. Volume is changing as the air temperature rises. That increased volume represent the "flow" as the heat rises and gathers in the safe, it is expanding. Since the closed container size does not change, the expanding air escapes past the upper door joints. That induces a "draft", which in turn pulls more cool air in at the bottom of the door. Sure, there is a "circulation" effect, but as the warmer air collects at the safe ceiling, the expanding gasses must go somewhere. I think of it as a circular pump, where the cool air comes in the bottom, gets heated and rises, and as the mass of heated air collects and expands, it "draws" the cool air as it escapes the top. So, as this relates to weather... a cold front always blows into the warmer zones, right? The barometric pressure of the warm zone is lower. That pressure differential is what drives the wind. Maybe it's not the best analogy for a safe environment. The scientific explanation was merely an effort to provide a potential real cause for the described problem. It may not be true at all, but it would be interesting to see if some testing supports the explanation. It still could be those damn cockroaches. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 7:18:18 PM EDT
[#15]
I now understand this a bit better.
Thanks. So as of this evening the two Eva-Dry 500's are being relieved of duty since my 18 inch Dri-Rod came in today and the BF 6636 is all wired and outfitted for 110 voltage and so now in it goes to keep things a bit more maintenance free. I am always amazed that people who use these Eva-Dry's can go months without recharging them and I have to do this twice a month. Could be because of the humidity of living on the gulf coast of Texas but still even in a home with constant use central air?? Anyway I will keep a close eye on my humidity gauge inside the safe. |
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Posted: 8/13/2014 8:29:12 AM EDT
[#16]
I'd be willing to mess around with things and post humidity/temp changes in my safe, just to see if we can find any correlation. Just for fun.
I'll report on conditions after a week of using different combinations of things in my safe. I have a humidity/temp gauge in my safe currently (near the top, stuck to the side with a magnet), and also have a camp temperature/alarm clock thing in my gun room on the reloading bench (b/c I also brew beer and try to keep that room a good temp for fermenting), so I can compare temp outside the safe vs temp inside the safe with humidity. Right now I have 2 plug-in small dehumidifiers, and either a 16" or 18" dry rod. Been running this setup since I got the safe, and it's been keeping my humidity levels low, but I do need to recharge the dehumidifiers every couple-few weeks or so. I'll update every Sunday with readings, starting with current setup, then I'll remove the dehumidifers and only run the dry rod for a week and post readings, then I'll unplug the dry rod and use only the 2 recharged dehumidifers for a week and post readings. Sound good? Should I do anything different? ETA: To get some sort of a control variable too, I'll take an inside the safe reading first, and then put the humidity/temp unit outside of my safe for a half a day or so to gauge what current humidity outside of the safe is as well, then I'll post the numbers each week. |
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Posted: 8/13/2014 11:44:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd be willing to mess around with things and post humidity/temp changes in my safe, just to see if we can find any correlation. Just for fun.
I'll report on conditions after a week of using different combinations of things in my safe. I have a humidity/temp gauge in my safe currently (near the top, stuck to the side with a magnet), and also have a camp temperature/alarm clock thing in my gun room on the reloading bench (b/c I also brew beer and try to keep that room a good temp for fermenting), so I can compare temp outside the safe vs temp inside the safe with humidity. Right now I have 2 plug-in small dehumidifiers, and either a 16" or 18" dry rod. Been running this setup since I got the safe, and it's been keeping my humidity levels low, but I do need to recharge the dehumidifiers every couple-few weeks or so. I'll update every Sunday with readings, starting with current setup, then I'll remove the dehumidifers and only run the dry rod for a week and post readings, then I'll unplug the dry rod and use only the 2 recharged dehumidifers for a week and post readings. Sound good? Should I do anything different? ETA: To get some sort of a control variable too, I'll take an inside the safe reading first, and then put the humidity/temp unit outside of my safe for a half a day or so to gauge what current humidity outside of the safe is as well, then I'll post the numbers each week. To establish a baseline, you probably need to verify that the conditions you have in your safe environment yield similar results to what the OP is complaining about. With the Dryrod on, the desiccant recharge period is around 7 days, and with the Dryrod off, it extends to 10-14 days. If you're seeing similar results, then you can correlate the humidity numbers you gather to those conditions and try other combinations to see how the variables change the resulting desiccant recharge period. One of the things on my hit list would be to improve the door seals and note how that changes the recharge period. Right now, there are too many unknowns in the equation. Each variable needs to be isolated and/or eliminated to understand the actual impact. There is another facet of this that I have been mulling over too, and I'm wondering if there is any reason to consider this. Another small but real thing that happens in the environment is equalization of humidity. The humidity in a closed environment will naturally equalize, such that when a point in the environment is somehow removing moisture from the air (a desiccant pack), the dry air that results causes the remaining moisture in the rest of the space to dissipate and equalize with that dryer air. In effect, the desiccant pulls the moisture to the drying element as the environment constantly normalizes. If that effect is significant or not, I'm not sure. This may also play a role in our puzzle. So, the point is that there may be results that are not completely explained by the simple model we are assuming is at work here. My experience with environmental systems lead me to believe this is a factor that we can't ignore. |
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Posted: 8/14/2014 5:15:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I now understand this a bit better. Thanks. So as of this evening the two Eva-Dry 500's are being relieved of duty since my 18 inch Dri-Rod came in today and the BF 6636 is all wired and outfitted for 110 voltage and so now in it goes to keep things a bit more maintenance free. I am always amazed that people who use these Eva-Dry's can go months without recharging them and I have to do this twice a month. Could be because of the humidity of living on the gulf coast of Texas but still even in a home with constant use central air?? Anyway I will keep a close eye on my humidity gauge inside the safe. I would use the Eva-Dry along with the Dri-Rod. I was told Dri-Rods take care of "relative" humidity but actual Eva Dry Dehumidifiers reduce "actual" humidity. |
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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:34:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would use the Eva-Dry along with the Dri-Rod. I was told Dri-Rods take care of "relative" humidity but actual Eva Dry Dehumidifiers reduce "actual" humidity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I now understand this a bit better. Thanks. So as of this evening the two Eva-Dry 500's are being relieved of duty since my 18 inch Dri-Rod came in today and the BF 6636 is all wired and outfitted for 110 voltage and so now in it goes to keep things a bit more maintenance free. I am always amazed that people who use these Eva-Dry's can go months without recharging them and I have to do this twice a month. Could be because of the humidity of living on the gulf coast of Texas but still even in a home with constant use central air?? Anyway I will keep a close eye on my humidity gauge inside the safe. I would use the Eva-Dry along with the Dri-Rod. I was told Dri-Rods take care of "relative" humidity but actual Eva Dry Dehumidifiers reduce "actual" humidity. But if you read back TSG says it would cause the two to work against each other. I think he knows far more about this than most of us. At least more than I do. |
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Posted: 8/17/2014 6:10:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But if you read back TSG says it would cause the two to work against each other. I think he knows far more about this than most of us. At least more than I do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I now understand this a bit better. Thanks. So as of this evening the two Eva-Dry 500's are being relieved of duty since my 18 inch Dri-Rod came in today and the BF 6636 is all wired and outfitted for 110 voltage and so now in it goes to keep things a bit more maintenance free. I am always amazed that people who use these Eva-Dry's can go months without recharging them and I have to do this twice a month. Could be because of the humidity of living on the gulf coast of Texas but still even in a home with constant use central air?? Anyway I will keep a close eye on my humidity gauge inside the safe. I would use the Eva-Dry along with the Dri-Rod. I was told Dri-Rods take care of "relative" humidity but actual Eva Dry Dehumidifiers reduce "actual" humidity. But if you read back TSG says it would cause the two to work against each other. I think he knows far more about this than most of us. At least more than I do. I don't see how that's possible. The Eva Dry dehumidifiers are not a heating element nor a cooling element. They literally just suck moisture from there air. They work in completely different ways and are unrelated to each other. My safe is at 25% humidity and how often I recharge my Eva Dry's has more to do with how often I open my safe than anything. If OP just used the a Golden Rod and the Eva Dry's didn't exist, his problem would still exist, only he wouldn't have the Eva Dry's to gauge his problem. Better to play it safe and just keep recharging the units, maybe not open the safe as often. |
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Posted: 8/17/2014 1:07:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Tagged.
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Posted: 8/17/2014 4:34:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I don't see how that's possible. The Eva Dry dehumidifiers are not a heating element nor a cooling element.
They literally just suck moisture from there air. They work in completely different ways and are unrelated to each other. My safe is at 25% humidity and how often I recharge my Eva Dry's has more to do with how often I open my safe than anything. If OP just used the a Golden Rod and the Eva Dry's didn't exist, his problem would still exist, only he wouldn't have the Eva Dry's to gauge his problem. Better to play it safe and just keep recharging the units, maybe not open the safe as often. The Op in this thread stated that he has a considerably shorter life of the desiccant in his safe when the Dryrod is turned on. That simple observation is evidence enough to come to the conclusion that the two mechanisms are working against each other. The presence of a heating element is accelerating the saturation of the desiccant. That appears to be a fact, not a theory. The rest is one way to explain the observations with sound scientific processes. There may be unknown factors, but in the absence of any other information, the idea of Dryrod induced circulation causing a higher rate of air exchange to draw more moisture to the desiccant does make sense. |
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Posted: 8/17/2014 7:17:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Op in this thread stated that he has a considerably shorter life of the desiccant in his safe when the Dryrod is turned on. That simple observation is evidence enough to come to the conclusion that the two mechanisms are working against each other. The presence of a heating element is accelerating the saturation of the desiccant. That appears to be a fact, not a theory. The rest is one way to explain the observations with sound scientific processes. There may be unknown factors, but in the absence of any other information, the idea of Dryrod induced circulation causing a higher rate of air exchange to draw more moisture to the desiccant does make sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I don't see how that's possible. The Eva Dry dehumidifiers are not a heating element nor a cooling element.
They literally just suck moisture from there air. They work in completely different ways and are unrelated to each other. My safe is at 25% humidity and how often I recharge my Eva Dry's has more to do with how often I open my safe than anything. If OP just used the a Golden Rod and the Eva Dry's didn't exist, his problem would still exist, only he wouldn't have the Eva Dry's to gauge his problem. Better to play it safe and just keep recharging the units, maybe not open the safe as often. The Op in this thread stated that he has a considerably shorter life of the desiccant in his safe when the Dryrod is turned on. That simple observation is evidence enough to come to the conclusion that the two mechanisms are working against each other. The presence of a heating element is accelerating the saturation of the desiccant. That appears to be a fact, not a theory. The rest is one way to explain the observations with sound scientific processes. There may be unknown factors, but in the absence of any other information, the idea of Dryrod induced circulation causing a higher rate of air exchange to draw more moisture to the desiccant does make sense. Which basically means he is moving more air in and out of the safe, as would be the case with anyone that uses a dry rod. Do you think OP should kick the dry rod? If so maybe we all should based on what you are saying above. If it causes more air to move/exchange in and out of the safe, maybe dry rods are a bad idea? (just thinking out loud) The goal isn't to have Eva Dry's that fill up less frequently, the goal is to have no rust on the guns. That's why I would not say they are working "against" each other. Maybe his dehumidifiers will fill up faster, but his overall humidity will be down. If the dry rod is taking care of his relative humidity when the safe is closed, there isn't going to be a negative effect on the guns having an dehumidifier in the safe as well (taking care of the actual moisture). Working against the dehumidifier, maybe. Working against the guns....I don't see it. Just it's my thoughts. |
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Posted: 8/17/2014 9:15:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Which basically means he is moving more air in and out of the safe, as would be the case with anyone that uses a dry rod. Do you think OP should kick the dry rod? If so maybe we all should based on what you are saying above.
If it causes more air to move/exchange in and out of the safe, maybe dry rods are a bad idea? (just thinking out loud) The goal isn't to have Eva Dry's that fill up less frequently, the goal is to have no rust on the guns. That's why I would not say they are working "against" each other. Maybe his dehumidifiers will fill up faster, but his overall humidity will be down. If the dry rod is taking care of his relative humidity when the safe is closed, there isn't going to be a negative effect on the guns having an dehumidifier in the safe as well (taking care of the actual moisture). Working against the dehumidifier, maybe. Working against the guns....I don't see it. Just it's my thoughts. I don't think I ever said the guns were at risk of rusting. The problem at hand was the high frequency of drying out the desiccants. Until now, we had not addressed the risk to the guns. I think when both devices are working together, there is probably no higher risk of condensation, which is the key thing we are concerned with preventing. In my view, they both work fairly well independently. I think when you have large temperature swings, as in a garage installation without any climate control, the desiccant approach is better. The Dryrod only raises the temperature a few degrees in the safe, and with rapid large temperature swings, you could still see condensation. Neither solution is perfect. If the safe ambient is 40 degrees, and I open the dour and ambient air is 80% humidity and 85 degrees, you will get condensation. The dewpoint is 78 degrees in those conditions, and the guns are still around 40 degrees. There will be condensation on the cold steel, just like a glass of cold water, and neither preventative measure will stop the condensation... 
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Posted: 8/17/2014 10:56:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think I ever said the guns were at risk of rusting. The problem at hand was the high frequency of drying out the desiccants. Until now, we had not addressed the risk to the guns. I think when both devices are working together, there is probably no higher risk of condensation, which is the key thing we are concerned with preventing. In my view, they both work fairly well independently. I think when you have large temperature swings, as in a garage installation without any climate control, the desiccant approach is better. The Dryrod only raises the temperature a few degrees in the safe, and with rapid large temperature swings, you could still see condensation. Neither solution is perfect. If the safe ambient is 40 degrees, and I open the dour and ambient air is 80% humidity and 85 degrees, you will get condensation. The dewpoint is 78 degrees in those conditions, and the guns are still around 40 degrees. There will be condensation on the cold steel, just like a glass of cold water, and neither measure will stop the condensation... http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/DewPoint.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Which basically means he is moving more air in and out of the safe, as would be the case with anyone that uses a dry rod. Do you think OP should kick the dry rod? If so maybe we all should based on what you are saying above.
If it causes more air to move/exchange in and out of the safe, maybe dry rods are a bad idea? (just thinking out loud) The goal isn't to have Eva Dry's that fill up less frequently, the goal is to have no rust on the guns. That's why I would not say they are working "against" each other. Maybe his dehumidifiers will fill up faster, but his overall humidity will be down. If the dry rod is taking care of his relative humidity when the safe is closed, there isn't going to be a negative effect on the guns having an dehumidifier in the safe as well (taking care of the actual moisture). Working against the dehumidifier, maybe. Working against the guns....I don't see it. Just it's my thoughts. I don't think I ever said the guns were at risk of rusting. The problem at hand was the high frequency of drying out the desiccants. Until now, we had not addressed the risk to the guns. I think when both devices are working together, there is probably no higher risk of condensation, which is the key thing we are concerned with preventing. In my view, they both work fairly well independently. I think when you have large temperature swings, as in a garage installation without any climate control, the desiccant approach is better. The Dryrod only raises the temperature a few degrees in the safe, and with rapid large temperature swings, you could still see condensation. Neither solution is perfect. If the safe ambient is 40 degrees, and I open the dour and ambient air is 80% humidity and 85 degrees, you will get condensation. The dewpoint is 78 degrees in those conditions, and the guns are still around 40 degrees. There will be condensation on the cold steel, just like a glass of cold water, and neither measure will stop the condensation... http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/DewPoint.jpg Gotcha, I was misunderstanding you when you said "working against each other". I was under the assumption that meant working against the guns and rusting. Which is why we use these items. Thanks TSG. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 5:01:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Thanks for all the replies. Without the golden rod I am getting about two extra days with my plug in dessicant. The 10 to 14 day time frame was wrong, it was what I thought but watching the time frame between changes two extra days is it. I don't have a rust issue so far. If I am in and out of the safe it seems to not last as long.
I am still leaving the golden rod in for now. Paranoia I guess. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 9:48:25 AM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for all the replies. Without the golden rod I am getting about two extra days with my plug in dessicant. The 10 to 14 day time frame was wrong, it was what I thought but watching the time frame between changes two extra days is it. I don't have a rust issue so far. If I am in and out of the safe it seems to not last as long.
I am still leaving the golden rod in for now. Paranoia I guess. So what are your humidity levels? |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 10:51:22 AM EDT
[#28]
I have no idea. I need to buy something to check it with. I have those hanging closet bags and buckets in my basement. The hanging bags fill with water in about 30 days.
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Posted: 8/20/2014 11:55:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Your desiccants will absorb moisture until there is no moisture left to absorb. You need to get a hygrometer to measure the humidity levels both inside and outside your safe so that you can determine if the humidity is even a problem. If you remove too much moisture, you an also cause damage.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:21:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your desiccants will absorb moisture until there is no moisture left to absorb. You need to get a hygrometer to measure the humidity levels both inside and outside your safe so that you can determine if the humidity is even a problem. If you remove too much moisture, you an also cause damage. In your experienced opinion, what is the best option or combination to keep the best level of humidity? Thanks, |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 12:12:14 PM EDT
[#31]
I have a Dehumidifier in my basement about 5 feet from the safe and a Goldenrod inside.
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Posted: 8/23/2014 1:29:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your desiccants will absorb moisture until there is no moisture left to absorb. You need to get a hygrometer to measure the humidity levels both inside and outside your safe so that you can determine if the humidity is even a problem. If you remove too much moisture, you an also cause damage. Maybe wooden stocks can get dried out, but if you don't have anything with wood, what else is there to worry about? |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 2:55:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, I should have been more technically explicit. I hate it when I make a hasty technical explanation, excuse me. We don't have a perfect seal... so Pressure is basically a constant. Volume is changing as the air temperature rises. That increased volume represent the "flow" as the heat rises and gathers in the safe, it is expanding. Since the closed container size does not change, the expanding air escapes past the upper door joints. That induces a "draft", which in turn pulls more cool air in at the bottom of the door. Sure, there is a "circulation" effect, but as the warmer air collects at the safe ceiling, the expanding gasses must go somewhere. I think of it as a circular pump, where the cool air comes in the bottom, gets heated and rises, and as the mass of heated air collects and expands, it "draws" the cool air as it escapes the top. So, as this relates to weather... a cold front always blows into the warmer zones, right? The barometric pressure of the warm zone is lower. That pressure differential is what drives the wind. Maybe it's not the best analogy for a safe environment. The scientific explanation was merely an effort to provide a potential real cause for the described problem. It may not be true at all, but it would be interesting to see if some testing supports the explanation. It still could be those damn cockroaches.[/span][/span] I think you are on the right track but maybe I"ll add a bit more to the explanation (because I'm a nerd). If we're using the ideal gas law as our basis for explaining this problem and the safe is not perfectly air tight (which I'm sure is a good assumption), here is how I see it: The volume inside the safe is constant. Because the safe is not sealed, the pressure inside is essentially constant (at whatever the ambient atmospheric pressure is, which does change but we'll neglect it for this thought exercise). What happens to the air inside the safe as it warms up is that its specific volume changes, ie gets larger as it warms. Specific volume can be thought of as its density (actually it is the inverse of the density). A certain amount of air, whether it be a quantity of mass or moles (actual number of molecules) will take up more space as it is heated, making it less dense. This warmer, less dense air will tend to rise inside the safe and seep out the seal at the top of the door (and continue to rise in the room around until it cools as it is mixed with ambient air or reaches the ceiling of the room). As the warm air is filtering out the top, cooler more dense air from outside the safe is drawn into the bottom of the safe. Because of the presence of the desiccant in the safe, it is likely that the air leaving out the top is less humid than the air entering, thus a constant supply of wetter air for the desiccant to work with. |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 4:17:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I think you are on the right track but maybe I"ll add a bit more to the explanation (because I'm a nerd). If we're using the ideal gas law as our basis for explaining this problem and the safe is not perfectly air tight (which I'm sure is a good assumption), here is how I see it:
The volume inside the safe is constant. Because the safe is not sealed, the pressure inside is essentially constant (at whatever the ambient atmospheric pressure is, which does change but we'll neglect it for this thought exercise). What happens to the air inside the safe as it warms up is that its specific volume changes, ie gets larger as it warms. Specific volume can be thought of as its density (actually it is the inverse of the density). A certain amount of air, whether it be a quantity of mass or moles (actual number of molecules) will take up more space as it is heated, making it less dense. This warmer, less dense air will tend to rise inside the safe and seep out the seal at the top of the door (and continue to rise in the room around until it cools as it is mixed with ambient air or reaches the ceiling of the room). As the warm air is filtering out the top, cooler more dense air from outside the safe is drawn into the bottom of the safe. Because of the presence of the desiccant in the safe, it is likely that the air leaving out the top is less humid than the air entering, thus a constant supply of wetter air for the desiccant to work with. Well said... |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 6:24:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Maybe wooden stocks can get dried out, but if you don't have anything with wood, what else is there to worry about? If you're just talking about firearms, then wood is really the only thing to be concerned about. If you are using your safe for "other stuff", the answer is that it depends. For example, anything that uses seals can be subject to seal failure. Photography equipment and watches fall into this category. I suppose it's also possible in theory to dry out the insulation to a point that it would reduce its ability to protect the contents of the safe during a fire. |
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Posted: 9/16/2014 5:24:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Have been experiencing the same since I got my safe together about 7yrs back
I have a Liberty Franklin 35 18" goldenrod on the floor of the safe Small rechargeable plug in dehum at about 2/3 up sitting on the racks I rarely recharge it since it only lasts about a week before the beads turn pink again and I haven't had a rust issues so far. Last recharge was a few weeks ago and the beads are a clear pink Outside the safe down near the bottom seal is 75 F and a humidity level of 60% Inside same height as dehum I have 78 F and a humidity level of 43%
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Posted: 10/7/2014 10:29:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your desiccants will absorb moisture until there is no moisture left to absorb. You need to get a hygrometer to measure the humidity levels both inside and outside your safe so that you can determine if the humidity is even a problem. If you remove too much moisture, you an also cause damage. How so? A bit counter intuitive if your trying to prevent corrosion eh? |
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Posted: 10/7/2014 11:12:07 AM EDT
[#38]
If you don't use the golden rod or desiccants, do you get rust? For the last ten years my safe has been in my finished basement that has central heat and air.
I have tested the humidity down there and it can get pretty high at times but I have never had a rust or mold problem in my safe. I use a good rust preventative on all my guns regardless and have never had a problem even though I have never used anything to reduce humidity. There are temperature and humidity data loggers that will record conditions over time and then download to a computer. Edited to add: Here is a graph from a data logger test from inside my safe. A later test showed similar conditions out side the safe. 
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Posted: 10/7/2014 8:29:02 PM EDT
[#39]
How so? A bit counter intuitive if your trying to prevent corrosion eh? 45% to 55% humidity at 70 degrees is your typical museum type conditions. Although too much moisture can cause damage (corrosion, mold, etc), too little can also cause damage by drying out items that need to contain some degree of moisture. Wood stocks are a perfect example. By keeping the moisture level within the safe lower than the moisture level within the wood, the moisture will move out of the wood and into the dryer air. This will crack the wood. If you're storing watches of photography equipment the seals will fail in the same fashion. Before you take any steps to mitigate moisture, you should know exactly what you're dealing with first. Too many people skip this step. If you don't use the golden rod or desiccants, do you get rust? For the last ten years my safe has been in my finished basement that has central heat and air.
I have tested the humidity down there and it can get pretty high at times but I have never had a rust or mold problem in my safe. There are exceptions to this, mainly dealing with the moisture content of the insulators used within the safe. Outside of that, there is nothing magical about the safe. The air outside is going to end up being the air inside. If you're guns aren't rusting in the gun cabinet, they're unlikely to rust inside of a safe. Keep in mind that the air inside the safe tends to circulate at a much slower rate than the air outside (unless using something like a goldenrod). Your safe may be a few days behind, so if you have had a period of high moisture, that air may still be lingering within the safe. |
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Posted: 10/9/2014 4:52:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
45% to 55% humidity at 70 degrees is your typical museum type conditions. Although too much moisture can cause damage (corrosion, mold, etc), too little can also cause damage by drying out items that need to contain some degree of moisture. Wood stocks are a perfect example. By keeping the moisture level within the safe lower than the moisture level within the wood, the moisture will move out of the wood and into the dryer air. This will crack the wood. If you're storing watches of photography equipment the seals will fail in the same fashion. Before you take any steps to mitigate moisture, you should know exactly what you're dealing with first. Too many people skip this step. There are exceptions to this, mainly dealing with the moisture content of the insulators used within the safe. Outside of that, there is nothing magical about the safe. The air outside is going to end up being the air inside. If you're guns aren't rusting in the gun cabinet, they're unlikely to rust inside of a safe. Keep in mind that the air inside the safe tends to circulate at a much slower rate than the air outside (unless using something like a goldenrod). Your safe may be a few days behind, so if you have had a period of high moisture, that air may still be lingering within the safe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? A bit counter intuitive if your trying to prevent corrosion eh? 45% to 55% humidity at 70 degrees is your typical museum type conditions. Although too much moisture can cause damage (corrosion, mold, etc), too little can also cause damage by drying out items that need to contain some degree of moisture. Wood stocks are a perfect example. By keeping the moisture level within the safe lower than the moisture level within the wood, the moisture will move out of the wood and into the dryer air. This will crack the wood. If you're storing watches of photography equipment the seals will fail in the same fashion. Before you take any steps to mitigate moisture, you should know exactly what you're dealing with first. Too many people skip this step. If you don't use the golden rod or desiccants, do you get rust? For the last ten years my safe has been in my finished basement that has central heat and air.
I have tested the humidity down there and it can get pretty high at times but I have never had a rust or mold problem in my safe. There are exceptions to this, mainly dealing with the moisture content of the insulators used within the safe. Outside of that, there is nothing magical about the safe. The air outside is going to end up being the air inside. If you're guns aren't rusting in the gun cabinet, they're unlikely to rust inside of a safe. Keep in mind that the air inside the safe tends to circulate at a much slower rate than the air outside (unless using something like a goldenrod). Your safe may be a few days behind, so if you have had a period of high moisture, that air may still be lingering within the safe. Living in a dry desert climate, my safe is always at 22%-30% To prevent seals from drying out, I coat the seals with NyoGel 779ZC. I found out about NyoGel from Surefire. They use NyoGel 779ZC as a lubricant for their seals for their lights.... I lube all of the battery compartment seals of optics and rail mounted lights with NyoGel 779ZC. Link: http://www.lighthound.com/NyoGel-779ZC-50-gram-tube_p_1348.html |
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