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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2015 6:17:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EBFLA]
[#1]
Well I guess I've been over confident. I don't really understand what you're saying so I'll probably have to get the local safe guru out to explain as right now all I have to do to open it is key in the electronic combo and turn the dial to the right until it stops. I doubt I'll be the target of a major assault at any point in the near future and the safe is overkill for what's stored inside but it was a great deal and I'm a strong proponent of buy once cry once. I looked inside the door once and it looks pretty complicated in there so I'll leave it to the pro's. I've considered selling to buy a more gun-centric safe (a bit short inside for some long guns) but I hate to sell the Mercedes to buy a Camry. This is what the inside of the door looks like....
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 11:07:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Well I guess I've been over confident. I don't really understand what you're saying so I'll probably have to get the local safe guru out to explain as right now all I have to do to open it is key in the electronic combo and turn the dial to the right until it stops. I doubt I'll be the target of a major assault at any point in the near future and the safe is overkill for what's stored inside but it was a great deal and I'm a strong proponent of buy once cry once. I looked inside the door once and it looks pretty complicated in there so I'll leave it to the pro's. I've considered selling to buy a more gun-centric safe (a bit short inside for some long guns) but I hate to sell the Mercedes to buy a Camry. This is what the inside of the door looks like.... http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/lifeislarge72/IMG_4834_zps3v8eyctq.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/lifeislarge72/IMG_4835_zpsfzv1o6qw.jpg To lock the safe afterwards do you spin the dial counter counterclockwise? The way you are describing your open process, that sounds like it has a LaGard redundant mechanical lock installed. To open it, are you keying in the combo on the right pad, then turn the combo dial clockwise until it starts to "grab" and then stop? If so, that is a LaGard redundant mechanical lock setup. ---Aaron |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 11:12:03 AM EDT
[#3]
From the photos, that is indeed the LaGard redundant.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 11:17:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
From the photos, that is indeed the LaGard redundant. I made that same assumption when I saw the photo too, but TSG thought it might be a 3wheel S&G with a LaGard dial. They way he is opening it though, it certainly sounds like it is indeed the redundant. ---Aaron |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 1:38:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Yep, that is indeed the LaGard Redundant lock. I failed on that one. Looks can be deceiving...
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 2:52:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EBFLA]
[#6]
Is there any way to tell which mechanical lock is installed i.e. 3 wheel or 4 wheel? I tried the 3 number combination I have last night and couldn't get it open with the mechanical lock but maybe I'm a spaz and doing something wrong. If it's a 4 wheel I'm screwed.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 3:08:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Is there any way to tell which mechanical lock is installed i.e. 3 wheel or 4 wheel? I tried the 3 number combination I have last night and couldn't get it open with the mechanical lock but maybe I'm a spaz and doing something wrong. If it's a 4 wheel I'm screwed. To the best of my knowledge the Lagard Redundant Mechanical was only ever offered in a 4 wheel configuration. Frank has a lot more experience than me, so he might have seen others. It is no big deal either way, as long as the electronic side of the lock still works, you just open it up with that until you have a chance to have a safe tech come over and reset the mechanical combination on the mechanical portion of the lock. As long as you can get the door open, that is a relatively simple process for him/her. ---Aaron |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 3:27:27 PM EDT
[#8]
I thought you needed the original combination to set a new one. If it is indeed a 4 number lock and I don't actually have the combination will it have to be replaced? I do have to turn the dial to relock the safe. Is there a setting that "disables" the mechanical lock other than to move the bolt? Shit, now I'm in panic mode......
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Posted: 1/30/2015 4:40:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Is there any way to tell which mechanical lock is installed i.e. 3 wheel or 4 wheel? I tried the 3 number combination I have last night and couldn't get it open with the mechanical lock but maybe I'm a spaz and doing something wrong. If it's a 4 wheel I'm screwed. The 4-wheel lock starts with Right, not Left. The sequence should be spin Right 4-5 turns, stopping on the 1st # - Left 3 turns to 2nd # - Right 2 turns to 3rd # - Left 1 turn to 4th number, Right to the Open-Stop drop retracting the Bolt. If you only have 3 numbers, and it's a 4-wheel lock, you have a mystery combo. If they set a 4-wheel on a 3-wheel combo, it would work just like a regular 3-wheel lock, and the combo you have should still work properly. Seems that's not working, so the combo is not right. Since you have the safe open using the e-lock override, this is not a catastrophe, but the remedy is a little too technical for the novice. There is a way to read the set combo via the change key hole, then adjusting the read numbers by the change index offset. It's too much instruction to write here. I would recommend you have a locksmith come out, and let them know they will need the extra-long LaGard Change Key (not real common). This kind of service call is generally not real expensive. Ask for a quote, based on an open safe and a combo reset. You can probably get this done for less than $150. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 4:58:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#10]
duplicate
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 4:59:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
I thought you needed the original combination to set a new one. If it is indeed a 4 number lock and I don't actually have the combination will it have to be replaced? I do have to turn the dial to relock the safe. Is there a setting that "disables" the mechanical lock other than to move the bolt? Shit, now I'm in panic mode...... There is no need to be in a panic mode. The only purpose of the mechanical combination with that lock is to allow you to open the safe in the event the electronic portion of the lock, or the electronic keypad, dies. The mechanical combination is generally only used as an override (although there is no reason you couldn't open it that way all the time if you wanted to). There is no way to disable the requirement to turn the dial to retract the bolt and open the safe. There is also no way to disable the mechanical combination. That is how that lock was designed. It is actually a single lock that has a dial, and a keypad and you can open it either way. But, whether using the keypad or the dial to enter the combo, you always have to turn the dial at the end to retract the bolt. Again, as I and TSG have said, have a safe tech come in. He can reset the combo for you in minutes, even if you don't know what the combo currently is. While the process is generally too complicated for an average DIYer, it is something safe techs do all the time. Don't sweat it. ---Aaron |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 8:11:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Coolio. As previously stated 197 times, you guys are the best.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 9:10:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Coolio. As previously stated 197 times, you guys are the best. Sure, I would have figured out it was a redundant mechanical earlier, but for whatever reason your photo bucket pics wernt showing up for me...I never saw the pics inside the door, only the exterior shots. Now that I see the inside the door, it is clear as to what it is. Looks like you also have the battery box for it too. Very very nice safe. You are a lucky guy. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 9:36:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Yes it does have the extra battery pack which holds six C cells. It's a baller safe and I am blessed for sure.
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Posted: 1/30/2015 11:43:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#15]
A well know locksmith, Dave McOmie, a man that publishes extensively in the industry describes that very safe as "diabolical" in a recent article about a penetration job. That Aluminum Block cage around the locking point is a bitch to defeat, even by the experts. I should have patented that idea...
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2015 12:45:04 AM EDT
[#16]
That's both comforting and disconcerting (should I ever need to have it drilled). Link to article?
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Posted: 1/31/2015 12:51:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#17]
That's both comforting and disconcerting (should I ever need to have it drilled). Link to article? That's the whole point behind a safe. The nastier the better from a burglary stand point. This is where some people get in trouble. I have had customers get a safe inexpensively or even free, and end up having to spend $1,000 or more to open it once it malfunctions. I'm assuming TSG is referring to one of Dave's NSO articles. These are typically limited to security professionals/NSO members. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2015 1:20:07 AM EDT
[#18]
Precisely why I dig the redundant lock set up and why now I'm really wanting to get the dial lock working to open it. I did buy it used but really had no idea of what it was. I'm working on getting the combo from the previous owner.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 1:40:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Welcome to the site! It is nice to see more members with "real" safes.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2015 2:37:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks. I have "real" guns too.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 4:49:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Here are some safes that did not fair as well as your TL-30 would if put too the test,
Archived linky of safes compromised |
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USA
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Posted: 2/1/2015 9:44:54 PM EDT
[#22]
TSG
Sent you a message. Thanks! //\\//\\ikeD73USA |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/1/2015 10:51:51 PM EDT
[#23]
I'd like to see some pics of attempts on a safe like mine (unsuccessful I hope).
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USA
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Posted: 2/2/2015 12:01:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: turnip75]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
I'd like to see some pics of attempts on a safe like mine (unsuccessful I hope). There have been a number of successful attempts that I've seen on TL-15 and Tl-30s like yours. Both by hack "locksmiths" and burglars. They all have one thing in common, lots and lots of time. Usually 3-10 hours or longer and they all use heavy power tools or torches. Remember, any safe is just a delay mechanism. Unless it's a Sturdy, then it's invinsible and can withstand attack forever! I kid...I kid 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2015 12:25:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Does home owners insurance cover a safe damaged by a botched entry? As the 2nd owner I don't think I am covered by the lifetime replacement for fire/theft damage......
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:09:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
A well know locksmith, Dave McOmie, a man that publishes extensively in the industry describes that very safe as "diabolical" in a recent article about a penetration job. That Aluminum Block cage around the locking point is a bitch to defeat, even by the experts. I should have patented that idea... TSG, What does the aluminum block cage do? |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 10:39:30 AM EDT
[#27]
What does the aluminum block cage do? Makes it harder to open without a working combination. |
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Posted: 2/2/2015 5:46:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ACG:
TSG, What does the aluminum block cage do? The Block, along with the Locking Bar design, creates and close-tolerance channel for the Locking Bar, and provides a secondary abutment to back up the Locking Bolt of the Lock. Typically, the Locking Bolt in a safe lock is in a cantilever load condition under side-punch attack. The Aluminum block provides a secondary support so the Bolt is placed in pure double-shear loading, making it very much stronger. Also, the close tolerances of the guide become a natural relocking mechanism when it is distorted in any way by penetration attempts. What all that means is that it's a double bitch to side-punch or drill. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2015 7:05:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: andrew1182]
[#29]
TSG,
I don't know how much you're on location where they produce the BF series safes, but if you're there often, would it be possible to get some pictures of the safes various stages of production? I ordered my Sandstone/Black Nickel BF7240 with an ESL10XL last week and would really like to see the process if it wouldn't release any secrets of the trade that could potentially be harmful to AMSEC. I'm not getting it until March, and I'm jonesing, LoL. |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2015 7:13:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ACG]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The Block, along with the Locking Bar design, creates and close-tolerance channel for the Locking Bar, and provides a secondary abutment to back up the Locking Bolt of the Lock. Typically, the Locking Bolt in a safe lock is in a cantilever load condition under side-punch attack. The Aluminum block provides a secondary support so the Bolt is placed in pure double-shear loading, making it very much stronger. Also, the close tolerances of the guide become a natural relocking mechanism when it is distorted in any way by penetration attempts. What all that means is that it's a double bitch to side-punch or drill. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By ACG:
TSG, What does the aluminum block cage do? The Block, along with the Locking Bar design, creates and close-tolerance channel for the Locking Bar, and provides a secondary abutment to back up the Locking Bolt of the Lock. Typically, the Locking Bolt in a safe lock is in a cantilever load condition under side-punch attack. The Aluminum block provides a secondary support so the Bolt is placed in pure double-shear loading, making it very much stronger. Also, the close tolerances of the guide become a natural relocking mechanism when it is distorted in any way by penetration attempts. What all that means is that it's a double bitch to side-punch or drill. Quite clear evidence that while anyone capable of sheering steel and welding can fabricate a box. There is still a Science to Security that requires a level of engineering intelligence to actually design it secure. |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 12:52:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
TSG, I don't know how much you're on location where they produce the BF series safes, but if you're there often, would it be possible to get some pictures of the safes various stages of production? I ordered my Sandstone/Black Nickel BF7240 with an ESL10XL last week and would really like to see the process if it wouldn't release any secrets of the trade that could potentially be harmful to AMSEC. I'm not getting it until March, and I'm jonesing, LoL. I work in the same building that our factory resides in, so I walk the floor all the time. I'll take the camera next time out... |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/3/2015 8:57:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryI work in the same building that our factory resides in, so I walk the floor all the time. I'll take the camera next time out...[/span][/span]  Thanks!
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USA
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Posted: 2/3/2015 11:53:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Hello T S G!
I sent you a message, please help me out when you get a chance, thanks! Mike |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 3:17:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MikeD73USA:
Hello T S G! I sent you a message, please help me out when you get a chance, thanks! Mike Answered... |
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Posted: 2/3/2015 8:10:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#35]
I have been granted permission to share our most recent graph showing competitive fire rated Gunsafes. I promised I would share that updated data with you here. The graph speaks for itself. The ceramic blanket lined safe failed (exceeded 350º) at 8.2 minutes. Off the top of the graph area, the interior temperature hit 1100ºF at 47 minutes. Test graph lines that terminate at 93 minutes were run where the test goal was 90 minutes and testing was terminated.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/3/2015 11:54:54 PM EDT
[#36]
TSG
In the above graph.. Would a RFX / CFX follow the same curve (or similar) as the BF? |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 12:13:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tyromeo55:
TSG In the above graph.. Would a RFX / CFX follow the same curve (or similar) as the BF? Any of the 3" Concrete walled safes will do 2 hours with the curve nearly flat just above 212º. That safe is rated for the ASTM E119 fire curve for 2-hours, which runs up to 1825º at 22 hours. At 1200º those safes would likely go as long as 4 hours, maybe more. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 2/4/2015 1:43:21 AM EDT
[#38]
Interesting that the competitor's "2 hr safe" (purple line) lasted about the same as the ceramic lined one, only 9 minutes. Wish I could see the reasoning for that. That's atrocious when you spend your money and are getting only 1/13th the protection you are paying for!
If only we could see names... but thanks for the results! Impressive results for Amsec! |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 2/4/2015 3:47:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bani]
[#39]
PDO coming loose from the door. WTF. what do I do now? staples?
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Posted: 2/4/2015 10:54:31 AM EDT
[#40]
That's atrocious when you spend your money and are getting only 1/13th the protection you are paying for! I have been around the forums for years, talking about gun safes (mostly), and posting photos showing the aftermath of fires. You really have to take what most of these manufacturers say with a grain of salt. It's not just as simple as how the safe is insulated, and the individual conditions of a real fire are going to be all over the place. Sometimes luck plays a role, but you should never rely on a gun safe to provide real fire protection. Buy a real UL rated fire safe if that's the purpose. I can't begin to tell you how many people buy gun safes to provide important fire protection for non gun things. Its a disaster waiting to happen. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 12:18:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FireStalker:
Interesting that the competitor's "2 hr safe" (purple line) lasted about the same as the ceramic lined one, only 9 minutes. Wish I could see the reasoning for that. That's atrocious when you spend your money and are getting only 1/13th the protection you are paying for! If only we could see names... but thanks for the results! Impressive results for Amsec! That 2-hour safe had really poor door seal placement. The intumescent seals were located where there was no opposing surface close enough to seal against. The steam volume was not strong enough to overcome that much gap, and the primary low-temp seals didn't work either. If you look, you'll see where the steam started working out past the 10 minute mark to flatten out the curve, but it was too late. There is a lot of information represented in these graphs, but I can't say much about the interpretation without teaching competitors about the technology. Moreover, I am only showing you the top probe set in the safes tested. The safes were all equipped with other probes that reveal a lot more about what is going on, but the top probes are by far the hottest in all the sampling points. So, the data does represent the highest temperatures measured in the internal space. There are hot spots close to the jamb areas in all of the safes, but measurements published represent what your valuables experience. |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 12:36:04 PM EDT
[#42]
Obviously the BF did great, but the 30-minute safe was pretty close to its mark. I'd like to think this graph will put a certain issue (I think we all know what I'm talking about here) to rest, but I know it won't.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/4/2015 7:57:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Were any ( if not all ) of the competitors safes "listed" to meet their published fire resistance?
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Posted: 2/4/2015 8:05:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tyromeo55:
Were any ( if not all ) of the competitors safes "listed" to meet their published fire resistance? Most fire ratings were marked on the product labels. In this industry, product marking is a key part of the consumer decision making process, so most everyone is pretty consistent in labeling the safes clearly for fire endurance and burglary. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:43:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Most fire ratings were marked on the product labels. In this industry, product marking is a key part of the consumer decision making process, so most everyone is pretty consistent in labeling the safes clearly for fire endurance and burglary. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By tyromeo55:
Were any ( if not all ) of the competitors safes "listed" to meet their published fire resistance? Most fire ratings were marked on the product labels. In this industry, product marking is a key part of the consumer decision making process, so most everyone is pretty consistent in labeling the safes clearly for fire endurance and burglary. Sorry, I think I asked poorly. By listed I mean UL, ETL ........ |
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Posted: 2/4/2015 11:58:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tyromeo55:
Sorry, I think I asked poorly. By listed I mean UL, ETL ........ Oh, you mean to ask if they had formal and legitimate 3rd-party independent listings. I'm not sure I should answer. That would imply there is some deliberate deceptions on the part of some competitors. I don't want to make any such accusations. |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 12:04:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#47]
I'm not sure I should answer. That would imply there is some deliberate deceptions on the part of some competitors. I don't want to make any such accusations. I understand TSG's position, and he would likely disagrees with my opinion on this. I believe there are a number of manufacturers who intentionally mislead consumers. There is virtually zero legal liability on their part, and selling more safes is money in their pockets. 
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/5/2015 12:27:49 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Oh, you mean to ask if they had formal and legitimate 3rd-party independent listings. I'm not sure I should answer. That would imply there is some deliberate deceptions on the part of some competitors. I don't want to make any such accusations. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By tyromeo55:
Sorry, I think I asked poorly. By listed I mean UL, ETL ........ Oh, you mean to ask if they had formal and legitimate 3rd-party independent listings. I'm not sure I should answer. That would imply there is some deliberate deceptions on the part of some competitors. I don't want to make any such accusations. Thank you sir, 
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/5/2015 4:26:32 PM EDT
[#49]
TSG,
Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge with us. I understand the BF series is a very nice product. Would you be able to comment on how the SF series does in fire testing? Disclaimer, I wanted to buy a BF, but due to weight limitations I had to go with a SF series. I'm very pleased with the SF but was wondering if you had data you could share on that series. |
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Posted: 2/5/2015 5:20:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By snyder76:
TSG, Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge with us. I understand the BF series is a very nice product. Would you be able to comment on how the SF series does in fire testing? Disclaimer, I wanted to buy a BF, but due to weight limitations I had to go with a SF series. I'm very pleased with the SF but was wondering if you had data you could share on that series. Yes, we have data. The SF series went 93 minutes before the top TC hit 350ºF. It's the only 3-layer gypsum lined safe to make it that far. One of the things we were doing with all of this testing was verifying the ratings on our entire product line, and making fine improvements to extend their ratings. |
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