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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 1/2/2013 4:00:41 PM EDT
I was reading a post on another board.
Someone mentioned they made a lock that had both a dial and keypad incase the keypad failed, but did not mention a brand.
the post was like 3 years ago, so not likely to get a response.

just wondering if anyone had heard of such a thing?
Link Posted: 1/2/2013 5:07:57 PM EDT
ft knox has them
Link Posted: 1/2/2013 5:44:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2013 7:23:44 PM EDT by a1abdj]
If you heard about it three years ago, it was likely the LaGard redundant lock. They are no longer in production, and fairly difficult to locate.

There is a new version coming onto the market from a different manufacturer. They can be installed on just about any safe, although some modification is required.

This is one of my B rates with the LaGard installed. The new lock is a bit different, in that the keypad and dial are a single unit:

Link Posted: 1/2/2013 8:08:13 PM EDT
Sturdy offers them now
Link Posted: 1/2/2013 8:15:28 PM EDT
I'm always amazed at how the gun safe manufacturers get involved with technology that has been used on real safes for 10 years, and act like it's the newest and greatest thing. It seems that all of these gun safe manufacturers started jumping on the band wagon about the same time the technology was being phased out. I almost wonder if they got a good deal on a bunch of soon to be obsolete stock.

Link Posted: 1/2/2013 8:18:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
If you heard about it three years ago, it was likely the LaGard redundant lock. They are no longer in production, and fairly difficult to locate.

There is a new version coming onto the market from a different manufacturer. They can be installed on just about any safe, although some modification is required.

This is one of my B rates with the LaGard installed. The new lock is a bit different, in that the keypad and dial are a single unit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/brateredundant2.jpg


Can you post (or PM) who makes the new version coming out?
Link Posted: 1/2/2013 9:15:42 PM EDT


Can you post (or PM) who makes the new version coming out?


I can probably even do you one better and post a photo, although it may be tomorrow because I don't have it on this computer. They have also marketed the lock to Cannon (gun safes), and AMSEC (will offer them on their gun safes too).

I do not have pricing information yet, but the lock has been out on a trial basis, and I have read a bit about it. It's a bit different than anything else that has been out there, and will install easier than the LaGard. Assuming that it's fairly reliable, it should be a winner.

Link Posted: 1/3/2013 5:36:18 AM EDT
I didn't hear about it 3 years ago. The post I found was 3 years old.

waiting patiently for the pic and info.


and is it possible to refit a safe for it? rather not pony up for a new safe if I don't have to.
old liberty with a LG digital on it already.
Link Posted: 1/3/2013 7:04:19 AM EDT
I'll get some better photos once the lock is released and we can all get some hands on time with them.

The keypad is two rows of buttons that run across the top portion of the dial housing. This lock will share a common footprint, and should retrofit into most existing safes with minimal effort.


Link Posted: 1/3/2013 7:44:32 AM EDT
you still didn't say who was making them?

and just curious if you have a ball park on price?
Link Posted: 1/3/2013 8:21:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2013 8:22:14 AM EDT by a1abdj]
I honestly don't know who's making them. I know who the designer is (also has a history with LaGard and another manufacturer), and I suspect who will be making them, but since they aren't really yet available, I can't verify that. Same with price. No idea. The lock will be UL rated, and it will surely be a major manufacturer.

I have been hearing about this lock for a little over a year. Starting about a month or so ago, they started to pop up on a test basis. I suspect they will be available within the next month or two, and I'll be able to answer those questions with more certainty.
Link Posted: 1/3/2013 8:32:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I'll get some better photos once the lock is released and we can all get some hands on time with them.

The keypad is two rows of buttons that run across the top portion of the dial housing. This lock will share a common footprint, and should retrofit into most existing safes with minimal effort.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/redundant2_zpscaab49a9.jpg


cool.
Link Posted: 1/3/2013 8:38:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I'll get some better photos once the lock is released and we can all get some hands on time with them.

The keypad is two rows of buttons that run across the top portion of the dial housing. This lock will share a common footprint, and should retrofit into most existing safes with minimal effort.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/redundant2_zpscaab49a9.jpg


Very nice! Definitely interested in seeing more info on this.

To the OP - the dealer in South Florida where we bought our Ft Knox does offer them (before and after market) with both the dial and keypad. Not sure how common it is for dealers to offer it but you may have luck checking around.
Link Posted: 1/3/2013 11:13:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I honestly don't know who's making them. I know who the designer is (also has a history with LaGard and another manufacturer), and I suspect who will be making them, but since they aren't really yet available, I can't verify that. Same with price. No idea. The lock will be UL rated, and it will surely be a major manufacturer.

I have been hearing about this lock for a little over a year. Starting about a month or so ago, they started to pop up on a test basis. I suspect they will be available within the next month or two, and I'll be able to answer those questions with more certainty.


I do like the idea of having the convenience of the electronic lock, but I went with the mechanical one on my safe due to reliability concerns. Do you think it will fit on your B-Rate safes? If this option had been available, I might have added it to that one I got from you earlier this week. Still might be worth having a local guy retrofit one on there later if it isn't too expensive.

Link Posted: 1/3/2013 4:16:44 PM EDT
Do you think it will fit on your B-Rate safes


It should retrofit onto just about any safe from any manufacturer. If the safe has a mechanical relock mounted next to the lock, there may need to be some minor fabrication. Same as if the door cavity is really shallow.

The LaGards fit into our B rates and just barely came in contact with the rear panel. I don't believe that this lock is as deep as the LaGard.

Link Posted: 1/3/2013 8:17:59 PM EDT
Cool, keep us posted when you get some in. I think it's an option a lot of people would consider.
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 12:50:50 PM EDT
been a month, thought I would pop this back up to see if there were any updates on the new lock?
Link Posted: 2/20/2013 7:50:54 AM EDT
btt to see if they are selling yet.
Link Posted: 2/20/2013 7:11:54 PM EDT
They did a trial run, which has led to a handfull of reviews and input from the pros. I am assuming they are going to use this input to improve the product. There was nothing that was a major concern, but there were several changes suggested to make the lock easier to install/use/service.

Link Posted: 2/23/2013 7:35:42 AM EDT
thanks.

in your experience does that make it a 3rd qtr this year or sometime next year type thing after the fixes?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 12:25:09 PM EDT
almost another month.

any word if they are released into the wild yet or still only cannon?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 3:08:12 PM EDT
I have three Fort Knox's on the way
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 6:41:03 PM EDT
Tagged. I want an AMSEC BF but would like a redundant locking system of some sort.
Link Posted: 3/21/2013 1:15:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I'm always amazed at how the gun safe manufacturers get involved with technology that has been used on real safes for 10 years, and act like it's the newest and greatest thing. It seems that all of these gun safe manufacturers started jumping on the band wagon about the same time the technology was being phased out. I almost wonder if they got a good deal on a bunch of soon to be obsolete stock.



They do it so they are EMP resistant which is concerning to some preppers and others. If an EMP goes off your electronic keypad will no longer function meaning you now with no power tools have to figure out a way to break into your own safe to get your guns to protect yourself.

Electronic keypads are nice for quick access, but the dial is nice in case of EMP attack, just extra insurance. Also we now have to worry about HPM doing the same thing.
Link Posted: 3/21/2013 5:49:36 AM EDT
They do it so they are EMP resistant which is concerning to some preppers and others. If an EMP goes off your electronic keypad will no longer function meaning you now with no power tools have to figure out a way to break into your own safe to get your guns to protect yourself.


So why weren't they doing it 10 years ago? The locks aren't new. EMP isn't new. Preppers aren't new.

The real reason these locks exist is so that you do not have to drill the safe in the event of the eventual malfunction of the electronics. It doesn't matter what may cause it to fail, the truth is that statistically, it will. This comes in very handy on real safes, where drilling it open would cost more than an entire gun safe. It's insurance if you will.

Seems like yet another marketing gimmick. Gun safe manufacturers are pretty good at that.

Link Posted: 3/22/2013 5:41:06 AM EDT
I am in the market too for a gun safe and want a redundant system. I was told over the phone by a dealer that sells both Ft. Knox and AMSEC that he prefers the Ft. Knox redundant system over the one that AMSEC is putting out. I believe he said he saw the AMSEC version at possibly the shot show or some sort of show and wasn't impressed at all. Can't quite recall. I am leaning towards the AMSEC BF so I hope his opinion is a little off.
Frank, since you sell AMSEC is there any word on when the BF7250 will be available with the new redundant system? Ideally, I would like to have a biometric lock paired with a mechanical. Is this combo available/possible? I have never used the biometric other than messing with them at a store. Is entry quicker with biometric versus electronic entry? What is the overall dependability/reliability of biometric compared to mechanical and then to electronic? If you were going to pick a locking system...in your professional opinion what would you pick? Redundant, Biometric, Electronic, Mechanical, and why? Thank you for your time and valuable information and experience.
Link Posted: 3/22/2013 6:04:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2013 6:09:35 PM EDT by a1abdj]
Everybody has to start by realizing that the locks on these gun safes, regardless of type, make, or model, have nothing to do with the safe manufacturer (with the exception of AMSEC). Safe manufacturers are approached by sales reps from the lock manufacturers, and like every other business, tend to look for the best deal/value. AMSEC is the only safe manufacturer that has it's own UL rated lock, and because they are such a huge company, offer locks from several major manufacturers. Just because one of their products comes with a specific lock, doesn't mean you can't order it with whatever you would like.

With that in mind, these locks all tend to be interchangable. If you already have a safe and would like a different lock, or the safe you are looking at doesn't have the lock you want, you can call a local safe tech and have it changed. Most of us have access to a variety that the manufacturers themselves do not.

A redundant lock simply means there are two systems which operate the lock. There are redundant electronic locks that use two sets of electronics, and are not available in the US. The redunant locks we speak of here in the US are the electronic/mechanical versions. These locks have a lot to offer for those that are worried about a lock failure.

I'm not a big fan of the biometric locks, because there simply isn't anything available, for a reasonable price, that is reliable enough to impress me. Electronic locks themselves have come a long way, but still have a much higher failure rate than mechanical locks. Electronic locks are able to do a number of things that mechanical locks can not, which makes a lot of sense in certain business applications. For home use, the only real benefits are the ease of operation, and the fact that you can change your own combination.

When it's all said and done, I still prefer the old fashioned mechanical locks for most applications. They are reliable, and easy enough to use.

When a safe retailer mentions liking one lock over another, ask them how many safes they drill open. It may surprise some to know that most gun safe retailers know very little about the technical aspects, and when they say they like one thing over another, have no real experience to base that opinion on.



Link Posted: 3/22/2013 6:06:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2013 6:07:34 PM EDT by a1abdj]
Double Tap.
Link Posted: 3/22/2013 7:58:14 PM EDT
Frank, is the AMSEC BF7250 on the market (for sale) yet with the redundant locking system?

Thank you for such an in depth and informative response earlier.
Link Posted: 3/23/2013 8:54:53 AM EDT
a1abdj was able to help me find one of the "old" lagard locks a few months ago, for a reasonable price. I installed it on my BigHorn 7144, and I LOVE it. I find I use my RSC much more often now, due to ease of access. My wife now knows how to get in, and has a much higher chance of actually -getting- in during a time of need, storing stuff in there for me, etc.

All in all, I'm extremely happy with a redundant lock, and don't know I'd consider a safe (or RSC) without one from this point forward.




Link Posted: 3/31/2013 2:46:05 AM EDT
I'm gonna call AMSEC on Monday to ask a few questions. I'll also ask if they can make me a safe with redundant locks.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/31/2013 8:13:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AggiePhil:
I'm gonna call AMSEC on Monday to ask a few questions. I'll also ask if they can make me a safe with redundant locks.


Let us know what they say. I am leaning towards the BF7250, but want a redundant locking system.

Link Posted: 4/1/2013 5:15:54 PM EDT
Spoke to a couple people at AMSEC today. The redundant lock they will be offering (more on that in a bit...) is called the NL Lock Duet Safe Lock. A Google search yielded the following information...

http://mobile.locksmithledger.com/article/10688372/protection-simplified-gartner-duet-safe-lock







I also found that NL Lock lists a "Bravo Entry Unit" lock on their website that appears to have a nine digit electronic lock and an "electronic key" lock. I don't know anything else about this unit. http://www.nllock.com/dbcTrade/premium/v404/ecaruse9bd.html?dbc=94855fa2856c7a9f391342268a501ebd&page=1598&productNo=br5010&pageType=

Now for the not-so-great news...

One of the AMSEC technical people was under the impression that the Duet can already be spec'd on new safe orders. However, Barbara in sales said it isn't and suggested I "call them back in a month." OK... So I don't think they know a timeframe at all. And I'm looking to order fairly soon so I'll probably just spec their standard e-lock for now and consider changing over to the Duet at a later time if it gets favorable reviews.
Link Posted: 4/1/2013 6:00:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AggiePhil:
Spoke to a couple people at AMSEC today. The redundant lock they will be offering (more on that in a bit...) is called the NL Lock Duet Safe Lock. A Google search yielded the following information...

http://mobile.locksmithledger.com/article/10688372/protection-simplified-gartner-duet-safe-lock

http://r3.cygnuspub.com/files/cygnus/image/LL/2012/APR/600x400/03dialopeningindexchanginginde_10688382.jpg

http://r2.cygnuspub.com/files/cygnus/image/LL/2012/APR/600x400/02keypad_10688381.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/45284_514633168593362_692502519_n.jpg

I also found that NL Lock lists a "Bravo Entry Unit" lock on their website that appears to have a nine digit electronic lock and an "electronic key" lock. I don't know anything else about this unit. http://www.nllock.com/dbcTrade/premium/v404/ecaruse9bd.html?dbc=94855fa2856c7a9f391342268a501ebd&page=1598&productNo=br5010&pageType=

Now for the not-so-great news...

One of the AMSEC technical people was under the impression that the Duet can already be spec'd on new safe orders. However, Barbara in sales said it isn't and suggested I "call them back in a month." OK... So I don't think they know a timeframe at all. And I'm looking to order fairly soon so I'll probably just spec their standard e-lock for now and consider changing over to the Duet at a later time if it gets favorable reviews.



Not trying to be Johnny Raincloud, but I wouldn't want to be getting anything "new" from AMSEC if they will only warranty it for a year. If I went Amsec, I was planning on getting a simple Mechanical lock. While your local locksmith could fix/replace, its a pretty costly proposition.

You'd think AMSEC would sell an extended warranty for $199 or something. They'd make out like bandits.
Link Posted: 4/1/2013 6:10:08 PM EDT
Not trying to be Johnny Raincloud, but I wouldn't want to be getting anything "new" from AMSEC if they will only warranty it for a year.


Locks are typically not covered under the "lifetime" safe warranties, because they are not made by the safe manufacturer. The locks tend to be warrantied by the lock manufacturer, for whatever period that manufacturer chooses.
Link Posted: 4/1/2013 6:10:30 PM EDT
Honest question for the safe techs... How big of a deal is it really to have a safe drilled when its electronic lock fails? I realize it could be 30 years from now but I'm buying the nicest safe I can afford so it'll last even longer than that. So...when it happens, is it a huge deal? Is the safe's appearance and/or integrity permanently affected?
Link Posted: 4/2/2013 6:19:29 AM EDT
How big of a deal is it really to have a safe drilled when its electronic lock fails?



For a typical gun safe, it's not that big of a deal. The higher security the safe is, the larger of a deal it becomes.


Is the safe's appearance and/or integrity permanently affected?


The integrity is rarely affected, as a proper repair is often stronger than the material around it. If it is just the lock, rarely is the appearance impacted, as the work is usually done behind the dial/keypad where it will be covered. Boltwork or relock issues may require drilling in a visable area.

Link Posted: 4/2/2013 6:58:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
How big of a deal is it really to have a safe drilled when its electronic lock fails?



For a typical gun safe, it's not that big of a deal. The higher security the safe is, the larger of a deal it becomes.


Is the safe's appearance and/or integrity permanently affected?


The integrity is rarely affected, as a proper repair is often stronger than the material around it. If it is just the lock, rarely is the appearance impacted, as the work is usually done behind the dial/keypad where it will be covered. Boltwork or relock issues may require drilling in a visable area.



Cost wise wouldn't it be $5-$600 to replace, weld over the holes, and touch up?
Link Posted: 4/2/2013 7:27:59 AM EDT
You don't want to weld on a gun safe. The steel is usually so thin that you'll cause extensive heat damage to the paint. We do cold repairs that are strong enough.

The ultimate cost will vary from one area to another. Here in the St. Louis area, you'd be looking at $350-$400 for an open and repair. A new lock would run $100+, plus the labor to install. You could easily be in the $600 range when it was all said and done.

Link Posted: 4/5/2013 7:43:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
You don't want to weld on a gun safe. The steel is usually so thin that you'll cause extensive heat damage to the paint. We do cold repairs that are strong enough.

The ultimate cost will vary from one area to another. Here in the St. Louis area, you'd be looking at $350-$400 for an open and repair. A new lock would run $100+, plus the labor to install. You could easily be in the $600 range when it was all said and done.


Awesome, just what I needed to know. That doesn't sound like much fun but, all things considered, it wouldn't be the end of the world and wouldn't total out the safe (at least, not a really good one). I think I'll take a chance and go with a quality electronic lock. I don't know what kind of lifespan you usually see with those (again, the good ones, like AMSEC's) but if it's at least 20 years, I don't think that'd be a problem.
Link Posted: 4/6/2013 10:16:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AggiePhil:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
You don't want to weld on a gun safe. The steel is usually so thin that you'll cause extensive heat damage to the paint. We do cold repairs that are strong enough.

The ultimate cost will vary from one area to another. Here in the St. Louis area, you'd be looking at $350-$400 for an open and repair. A new lock would run $100+, plus the labor to install. You could easily be in the $600 range when it was all said and done.


Awesome, just what I needed to know. That doesn't sound like much fun but, all things considered, it wouldn't be the end of the world and wouldn't total out the safe (at least, not a really good one). I think I'll take a chance and go with a quality electronic lock. I don't know what kind of lifespan you usually see with those (again, the good ones, like AMSEC's) but if it's at least 20 years, I don't think that'd be a problem.


Quality being the keyword. Go with a commercial grade such as the LaGard 33E. The keypad is a much nicer quality. It shouldn't show a wear pattern as easily as the cheaper ones. I have no complaints on mine... but still contemplating the LaGard redundant lock.

It looks like the LaGard redundant lock uses the keypad that appears to be similar on their e-locks. What are the chances I could continue to use the keypad off of my 33E and attach it to the redundant lock? The lock diagrams look like they use a similar electrical plug.
Link Posted: 4/6/2013 11:08:54 AM EDT
Everything I've read about the AMSEC ESL10XL has been extremely positive.
Link Posted: 4/6/2013 12:41:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FireStalker:
Originally Posted By AggiePhil:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
You don't want to weld on a gun safe. The steel is usually so thin that you'll cause extensive heat damage to the paint. We do cold repairs that are strong enough.

The ultimate cost will vary from one area to another. Here in the St. Louis area, you'd be looking at $350-$400 for an open and repair. A new lock would run $100+, plus the labor to install. You could easily be in the $600 range when it was all said and done.


Awesome, just what I needed to know. That doesn't sound like much fun but, all things considered, it wouldn't be the end of the world and wouldn't total out the safe (at least, not a really good one). I think I'll take a chance and go with a quality electronic lock. I don't know what kind of lifespan you usually see with those (again, the good ones, like AMSEC's) but if it's at least 20 years, I don't think that'd be a problem.


Quality being the keyword. Go with a commercial grade such as the LaGard 33E. The keypad is a much nicer quality. It shouldn't show a wear pattern as easily as the cheaper ones. I have no complaints on mine... but still contemplating the LaGard redundant lock.

It looks like the LaGard redundant lock uses the keypad that appears to be similar on their e-locks. What are the chances I could continue to use the keypad off of my 33E and attach it to the redundant lock? The lock diagrams look like they use a similar electrical plug.

I think the keypads are the same. I think it's just the mechanical lock housing (not dial / ring, just the lock itself) that's different. The instructions for the electronic portion of my redundant lock are the same as the instructions for the standard electronic lock. I think the keypads are even the same part number.
Link Posted: 4/6/2013 12:54:19 PM EDT
Electronic locks are similar to mechanical locks in that you have options.

Electronic locks are mostly the same. Many of the differences as you go up in price deal with the lock's programming, and not it's phyical design. There may be several keypads that will work with a particular lock, just like you can get different dials and rings for mechanial locks.

Link Posted: 4/11/2013 11:14:22 PM EDT
got a call back from amsec today.

amsec will not be offering the NL redundant lock. nor will anyone else. cannon now has an exclusive deal with them.
Link Posted: 4/12/2013 2:28:39 AM EDT
I think that's just for the first year.
Link Posted: 4/12/2013 2:26:02 PM EDT
wow, I can't imagine cannon moving enough safes to make that worth the while.
Link Posted: 4/13/2013 5:41:31 PM EDT
amsec said they were investigating other options.
Link Posted: 4/13/2013 6:16:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bani:
got a call back from amsec today.

amsec will not be offering the NL redundant lock. nor will anyone else. cannon now has an exclusive deal with them.


But will Cannon sell them as "upgrades" to people if you tell them you already own a Cannon. It works on a common footprint so should work on most safes.
Link Posted: 4/13/2013 6:49:52 PM EDT
Well I couldn't wait any longer. Went with the standard AMSEC e-lock. If the Duet Lock is offered aftermarket (through whoever), I will consider it at a later time. If AMSEC offers true dual locks...I'll be pissed.

As an aside, California Safe Company's Facebook page has some good info about the Duet lock.
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