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Posted: 3/19/2014 7:04:58 PM EDT
I have an LLC and recently applied for (and received) an FFL. I am in the process of opening a retail store. The store is not open for business yet.

I have personal guns that I would like to offer for sale at an upcoming gun show. I am not sure if it matters, but, hese guns have never been offered for sale nor have they been stored at the FFL location since the license was acquired. When I set up at the gun show do I need to log my  personal guns into my A&D book and have customers fill out a 4473 or am I permitted to sell the firearms FTF?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.

jonblack
Link Posted: 3/19/2014 7:40:44 PM EDT
[#1]
if you've owned them for more than a year, then no log in, no 4473 required to sell.
Link Posted: 3/19/2014 8:46:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for the reply. Not that I don't trust you, but, I would like to verify this info by looking through the handbook my IOI gave me.

Thanks again
jonblack
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 7:54:20 AM EDT
[#3]
I had my interview 2 weeks ago. Investigator said there was no time limit as they were personally owned guns and the 4473 had been done on me or whoever acquired them new. He said I could sell them privately if I wanted to but he recommended I add them to the A&D book to cover my end to prevent them being sold to a prohibited person. If it were a known family member or close friend, I would sell it to them privately but other than that, it goes in my A&D.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 10:38:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
if you've owned them for more than a year, then no log in, no 4473 required to sell.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
if you've owned them for more than a year, then no log in, no 4473 required to sell.

Not exactly.
If a licensee acquires a firearm for personal use from his business inventory, he must have it for a year before he can dispose of it without need for a 4473. He is still required to note the disposition in his records with the name and address of the transferee.



March 2006 FFL NEWSLETTER
Q. How should a dealer record the sale of a
personal firearm that has never been
entered into his or her bound book, or
that has been in his or her personal
firearms collection for less than a year?

A. If the transaction does not comply with all
of the conditions set forth in section
478.125a, the firearm must be sold through
the dealer’s business inventory, subject to
the requirements for an ATF Form 4473 and
a background check under the Brady law.
For example, if a dealer decides to
immediately sell a personal firearm that he
or she acquired prior to obtaining his or her
license, but which was never entered in his
or her records, he or she must record the
acquisition of the firearm in his or her
bound book and sell the firearm subject to
the same requirements applicable to the
sale of any firearm from his or her business
inventory. Similarly, if a dealer wishes to
immediately sell a firearm that was
transferred from the business inventory into
the personal collection less than a year
earlier, the firearm should be transferred
back into the business inventory, and sold
subject to the requirements for an ATF Form
4473 and a background check under the
Brady law.


I highly recommend that you 4473/NICS ALL firearms that you dispose of from your business premises. Can you imagine what ATF would think if they were to hear that a licensee is selling guns off paper at a gun store? You will have IOI's and agents crawling up your butt within hours.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 10:45:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
..... Investigator said there was no time limit as they were personally owned guns.....
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Quoted:
..... Investigator said there was no time limit as they were personally owned guns.....

This is why you never trust what anyone else, especially an IOI, says. Verify it yourself.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf

March 2006 FFL NEWSLETTER

Q. Do these recordkeeping requirements
apply to the sale of personal firearms?

A. Under certain circumstances, a licensed
dealer is exempt from the requirements to
complete an ATF Form 4473 and to initiate
a background check under the Brady law
when selling a firearm from his or her
personal firearms collection. 18 U.S.C.
923(c) and 27 CFR 478.125a. Transfers of
personal firearms are exempt from these
requirements only if the following
conditions are met:

-First, the licensee must have recorded
in the bound book the acquisition of
the firearm.

-Second, the licensee must have
recorded in the bound book, as a
disposition, the transfer of the firearm
from the business inventory to the
personal firearms collection or other
acquisition of the personal firearm.

-Third, the licensee must have maintained
the firearm as part of his or her personal
firearms collection for 1 year from the
date the firearm was transferred to the
personal collection, as shown in the
bound book.

-Finally, the licensee must record the
transfer in his or her disposition records
of personal firearms, in the format set
forth in the regulations. This means that
the licensee must record, from his or her
personal collection, specified identifying
information about the firearm; the date
of the sale or other disposition; and the
name, address, and date of birth of the
transferee (or, if the transferee is a
licensee, the name and business address
of the transferee). In addition, the
licensee shall cause any unlicensed
transferee to be identified in any manner
customarily used in commercial
transactions (e.g., a driver’s license).
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 10:59:43 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This is why you never trust what anyone else, especially an IOI, says. Verify it yourself.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
..... Investigator said there was no time limit as they were personally owned guns.....

This is why you never trust what anyone else, especially an IOI, says. Verify it yourself.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf



Thanks for the info. He had asked how long I'd had them (he never actually saw them or my safe) and I said I'd had all of mine for over a few years. Maybe that's why. Good thing. I'm learning that I need to verify everything.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 11:11:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I highly recommend that you 4473/NICS ALL firearms that you dispose of from your business premises. Can you imagine what ATF would think if they were to hear that a licensee is selling guns off paper at a gun store? You will have IOI's and agents crawling up your butt within hours.
View Quote



+1

And I would say this also applies if you are co-mingling your personal guns with your FFL's guns at the gun show. Even if you can legally sell your personal guns without running them back through the FFL I wouldn't do it . . . at least not in a setting where there could be any confusion. Better to avoid any questions.

FWIW, my FFL is also through an LLC. I never sell personal guns without running them through the store. I realize this isn't required, but I do it anyway.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:20:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for your reply Bladeswitcher. It makes perfect sense.

jonblack
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 7:04:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Check your state laws. In WI your either a dealer or not. No "personal" sales are allowed if you are a dealer. Background check is required for all sales.
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