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singtoe
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Posted: 9/26/2011 2:07:03 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Do Manufacturers need to pay the ITAR fees if they are not exporting?

Do they need to pay fees if they are not Making guns but repairing them or conversions?


RenegadeX
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Posted: 9/26/2011 4:18:43 PM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2011 4:22:10 PM by RenegadeX]

Originally Posted By singtoe:
Do Manufacturers need to pay the ITAR fees if they are not exporting?

Do they need to pay fees if they are not Making guns but repairing them or conversions?



yes, repairs no, conversions yes.


singtoe
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Posted: 9/26/2011 10:03:32 PM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2011 10:04:28 PM by singtoe]
So what are the 121.1(b) exemptions?













Thanks




sumkrnboy
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Posted: 9/26/2011 10:17:55 PM
Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business
of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions
Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless
register.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for: ...

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the
production of unclassified technical data only. ...

(4) Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for
experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S.
Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain
manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any
export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the
issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter.
S_A_C
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Posted: 9/28/2011 1:34:54 PM
Originally Posted By sumkrnboy:
Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business
of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions
Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless
register.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for: ...

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the
production of unclassified technical data only. ...

(4) Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for
experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S.
Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain
manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any
export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the
issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter.


So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?
Bubbles
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Posted: 9/28/2011 6:38:04 PM
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?

Yes, assembling AR-style rifles definitely falls under ITAR-related activity.
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.com/
csementuh
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Posted: 10/30/2011 11:29:48 PM
[Last Edit: 10/30/2011 11:31:06 PM by csementuh]
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?

Yes, assembling AR-style rifles definitely falls under ITAR-related activity.


Sorry to bump this month old thread now, but I have a major question here... I've lurked here for years, but never posted until now.

I've been selling AR parts in my business for awhile and my FFL 01 is in process. I really wanted the FFL 07, but the ITAR stuff really turned me away.

By 'falls under' do you mean ITAR does or doesn't need paid to 'build AR's'?

I would really love to be able to assemble AR's and then sell them, not just sell a lower and then 'gunsmith' it to the user's likings.

Is there a final word on ITAR? From my research I was under the impression that you needed to register and pay yearly to even 'safely' have a FFL 07?
bwideman
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Posted: 10/30/2011 11:55:44 PM

Originally Posted By csementuh:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?

Yes, assembling AR-style rifles definitely falls under ITAR-related activity.


Sorry to bump this month old thread now, but I have a major question here... I've lurked here for years, but never posted until now.

I've been selling AR parts in my business for awhile and my FFL 01 is in process. I really wanted the FFL 07, but the ITAR stuff really turned me away.

By 'falls under' do you mean ITAR does or doesn't need paid to 'build AR's'?

I would really love to be able to assemble AR's and then sell them, not just sell a lower and then 'gunsmith' it to the user's likings.

Is there a final word on ITAR? From my research I was under the impression that you needed to register and pay yearly to even 'safely' have a FFL 07?

If you are building AR's you need to be an 07FFL. If you are building AR's with an 07FFL, you need to be registered with ITAR.
csementuh
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Posted: 10/30/2011 11:59:28 PM
Thanks for the clarification!

I build uppers and sell other non-FFL items now, and will continue to do so. I will be careful to ensure that my activities are limited to 'gunsmithing', and not 'manufacturing'.
txyaloo
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Posted: 10/31/2011 1:36:22 PM
Originally Posted By bwideman:

Originally Posted By csementuh:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?

Yes, assembling AR-style rifles definitely falls under ITAR-related activity.


Sorry to bump this month old thread now, but I have a major question here... I've lurked here for years, but never posted until now.

I've been selling AR parts in my business for awhile and my FFL 01 is in process. I really wanted the FFL 07, but the ITAR stuff really turned me away.

By 'falls under' do you mean ITAR does or doesn't need paid to 'build AR's'?

I would really love to be able to assemble AR's and then sell them, not just sell a lower and then 'gunsmith' it to the user's likings.

Is there a final word on ITAR? From my research I was under the impression that you needed to register and pay yearly to even 'safely' have a FFL 07?

If you are building AR's you need to be an 07FFL. If you are building AR's with an 07FFL, you need to be registered with ITAR.


Unless you get a CJ... Then ITAR isn't required, nor do you need to register for ITAR before requesting a CJ.
txcas
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Posted: 10/31/2011 5:40:50 PM
[Last Edit: 10/31/2011 5:43:00 PM by txcas]
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
Originally Posted By bwideman:

Originally Posted By csementuh:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
So if you wanted an 07 instead of an 01 just to avoid any potential issues gunsmithing, and to cover things like assembling AR hits for customers you would still have to pay the ITAR extortion fee?

Yes, assembling AR-style rifles definitely falls under ITAR-related activity.


Sorry to bump this month old thread now, but I have a major question here... I've lurked here for years, but never posted until now.

I've been selling AR parts in my business for awhile and my FFL 01 is in process. I really wanted the FFL 07, but the ITAR stuff really turned me away.

By 'falls under' do you mean ITAR does or doesn't need paid to 'build AR's'?

I would really love to be able to assemble AR's and then sell them, not just sell a lower and then 'gunsmith' it to the user's likings.

Is there a final word on ITAR? From my research I was under the impression that you needed to register and pay yearly to even 'safely' have a FFL 07?

If you are building AR's you need to be an 07FFL. If you are building AR's with an 07FFL, you need to be registered with ITAR.


Unless you get a CJ... Then ITAR isn't required, nor do you need to register for ITAR before requesting a CJ.


What is a CJ? Never mind.
Any day on the range is a good day. -Jerry Miculek-
csementuh
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Posted: 10/31/2011 7:51:27 PM
I was under the impression that a CJ was on a per item basis, and wouldn't be practical. You couldn't specifically get an exemption for all things AR-15 could you? It seems that trying to get a FFL 07 and then trying to get a CJ would be quite a gamble. On the other hand however, you could technically have a FFL 07 and not make anything, and hence not pay ITAR correct? I am actually a lot more interested in a FFL 07 to get a SOT 2 for the odd chance when I'd want to make a SBR or something for a customer.
singtoe
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Posted: 11/1/2011 9:09:49 AM
Anybody had recently done a CJ? How did it go?
bullet3
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Posted: 11/1/2011 12:28:21 PM
Ok, what is a CJ?
sumkrnboy
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Posted: 11/1/2011 2:09:16 PM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
Ok, what is a CJ?


Commodity Jurisdiction
csementuh
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Posted: 11/1/2011 8:34:20 PM
1. Q: Purpose: What is a CJ?
A: The purpose of a commodity jurisdiction request, or CJ, is to determine whether an item or service is
covered by the U.S. Munitions List (USML) and therefore subject to export controls administered by the
U.S. Department of State pursuant to the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and the International Traffic in
Arms regulations (ITAR). If after reviewing the USML and other relevant parts of the ITAR, in particular
ITAR §120.3 and §120.4, you are unsure of the export jurisdiction of an item or service, you should
request a CJ determination.


CJ Application:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/commodity_jurisdiction/documents/DS4076.pdf

FAQ:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/faqs/documents/FAQ_CJ.pdf


So in other words, you would want your item(s) NOT covered by the USML, so they are not restricted, and thus not applicable to ITAR. This is all well and good, but the application asks for models numbers and particular information about a product. That would be fine if you were going to always 'manufacture' part number 'XYZ-AR', but that doesn't help you much if you are 'manufacturing' various guns and/or designs. It would be great if you could get some kind of catch all exemption (like the blackpowder guns) that would enable you to do x number of firearms a year. Sadly it doesn't seem to be likely to get a CJ even if you were making a certain model firearms, as firearms are specifically on the USML list.
txyaloo
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Posted: 11/1/2011 9:09:22 PM
Originally Posted By csementuh:
1. Q: Purpose: What is a CJ?
A: The purpose of a commodity jurisdiction request, or CJ, is to determine whether an item or service is
covered by the U.S. Munitions List (USML) and therefore subject to export controls administered by the
U.S. Department of State pursuant to the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and the International Traffic in
Arms regulations (ITAR). If after reviewing the USML and other relevant parts of the ITAR, in particular
ITAR §120.3 and §120.4, you are unsure of the export jurisdiction of an item or service, you should
request a CJ determination.


CJ Application:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/commodity_jurisdiction/documents/DS4076.pdf

FAQ:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/faqs/documents/FAQ_CJ.pdf


So in other words, you would want your item(s) NOT covered by the USML, so they are not restricted, and thus not applicable to ITAR. This is all well and good, but the application asks for models numbers and particular information about a product. That would be fine if you were going to always 'manufacture' part number 'XYZ-AR', but that doesn't help you much if you are 'manufacturing' various guns and/or designs. It would be great if you could get some kind of catch all exemption (like the blackpowder guns) that would enable you to do x number of firearms a year. Sadly it doesn't seem to be likely to get a CJ even if you were making a certain model firearms, as firearms are specifically on the USML list.


You only have to prove in a CJ that the firearm is designed primarily for civilian or LE use. This gets it exempted from the USML. The CJ does apply to a specific model, but how many "models" do most small manufacturers have?

Read this.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45696
csementuh
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Posted: 11/2/2011 10:42:29 PM
LOL, now I'm even more confused.

That thead gives some better insight into filing a CJ. Then someone steps in and states that they just decided to make their own determination that their product(s) are not applicable because they are for civilian useage. Seems like quite a gamble to simply state that without getting the proper permission from the Dept of State.

Here's the million dollar question... Can you get a FFL 07, not 'manufacture' anything, and not register for ITAR until you wish to 'manufacture' something? Or does getting a FFL 07 automatically make it so you 'should' get the ITAR registration despite what you may or may not ever make? It seems adventageous to get the FFL 07, and then not use it until you need it, then worry about a CJ or ITAR.

If so, I wonder if I can get the ATF to change my application now ( I sent it in as an 01)..

Thanks guys!
csementuh
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Posted: 11/22/2011 10:10:47 PM
I had my FFL 01 ATF interview a couple of days ago.

I was informed that I could switch to a 07 license, however I would need to pay the yearly $2250, and also excise tax on 50+ guns. I was informed by the ATF IOI that they do not automatically report which FFL's are manufacturers, however the ATF has and does report a list of manufacturers when asked by the Dept of State.

I'm not saying the ATF IOI knew everything, but that is what I was told... It conflicts in some regards, as a 07 shouldn't necessarily have to register with ITAR if they don't make anything.

Ohhh, well.. I'll just stick with a type 01 license. I believe the 07 would require more expensive insurance and a whole host of other issues when you wanted to manufacture something. I can do everything I would need to do by simply performing gunsmith type assembly work.
rtech
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Posted: 11/22/2011 11:09:41 PM
You know, I'd really like to get a 07/FFL, but the ITAR and other headaches in the future prevent me. I really want to do R&D in new small arms.

I simply see no reason why you need to register with ITAR if you don't export anything and especially if you don't do any export business at all with anybody and only deal with native US civilian/LE small arms. How did state stick it's head in and why is the registration $2300, but you get nothing except put on a list?

Seems to be just another road block to the gun business.

Somebody once said that gov't was supposed to protect you from outside invaders and something about not having a standing army....

Let me know when the second American Revolution starts. Eric the Hun told me once I'd have machineguns on the second day. And without ITAR intervention.
ttolhurst
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Posted: 11/23/2011 8:12:33 AM
It's almost as if they want to discourage manufacturers!
Bubbles
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Posted: 11/23/2011 11:18:59 PM
Originally Posted By csementuh:
I was informed by the ATF IOI that they do not automatically report which FFL's are manufacturers, however the ATF has and does report a list of manufacturers when asked by the Dept of State.


The full list of FFL's (except Type 03 C&R) is public info available as a MS XL spreadsheet right on the ATF's web site. DoS can go grab it at will.
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.com/
Ruzhye
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Posted: 11/27/2011 7:49:11 PM
Originally Posted By ttolhurst:
It's almost as if they want to discourage manufacturers!


At least small manufacturers. A big manufacturer may make enough rifles to easily cover the fee, but a hobby, or small time manufacturer would have a hard time making enough profit to pay the fee.
jrzy
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Posted: 1/20/2012 2:58:25 PM
Does anyone have a link to approved ITAR CJ letters ?
A few people have filed and been exempt form reg and paying the ITAR reg fee of $2250.00

The break down for each item was this:

Silencer:
Is it on the munitions list? Yes.
Is is predominantly for civilian use? Yes.
Is is specifically for military use? No.
Is is a threat to national security? No.

Then no registration for ITAR.


Liberals see the world as they would like it to be, Conservatives see the world as it is.
csementuh
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Posted: 1/25/2012 3:36:17 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Does anyone have a link to approved ITAR CJ letters ?
A few people have filed and been exempt form reg and paying the ITAR reg fee of $2250.00

The break down for each item was this:

Silencer:
Is it on the munitions list? Yes.
Is is predominantly for civilian use? Yes.
Is is specifically for military use? No.
Is is a threat to national security? No.

Then no registration for ITAR.




I'd be very interested in this as well. My company is a FFL 01 / SOT 03 now, but I'd glady switch to a FFL 07 / SOT 02 if I could. Business has been great so far, but not nearly great enough to want to hand over $2250 minimum a year to the DoS for ITAR.

I've spoken about ITAR with the DoS direct and FFL manufacturers as well. The truth is many 07's don't pay because they don't know about it, they don't care, or they aren't talking. Me, I won't play that game though. I need a concise answer before I decide to do it. It's too much a risk. I would like to build some post samples for R&D and potential sales to LEO, but the DoS won't give a clear answer, and the ATF doesn't care if you pay ITAR since it's not them.

More info on ITAR would be great... It's all available, but the info is as clear as mud lol.


Originally Posted By Ruzhye:
Originally Posted By ttolhurst:
It's almost as if they want to discourage manufacturers!


At least small manufacturers. A big manufacturer may make enough rifles to easily cover the fee, but a hobby, or small time manufacturer would have a hard time making enough profit to pay the fee.


Not to bash, but to clarify, the ATF won't issue a FFL for a 'hobby', and it generally wouldn't be a great idea to try. An extremely low sales volume and playing with too many things could get your licensed revoked or yourself in trouble. You definitely need to at least make a business effort about it.
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Posted: 1/27/2012 11:08:01 AM
Guys, I sent a email to the DDTC and here is the response -


MY EMAIL:
From: RANDY.WILSON
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:24 AM
To: DDTC Response Team
Subject: Federal Firearms License Question

I am a home based gunsmith who has applied for a Type 7 FFL (Manufacturers License) to do gun repair. They require I have a manufacturers license as I will be changing barrels on rifles. Do I have to pay the ITAR $2250.00 fee to operate? Thanks for your help!



THE RESPONSE:

If ATF issues you a manufactures license, DDTC considers you am manufacturer of defense articles (US Munitions List Category I, Firearms) and requires you to register.

Go to www.pmddtc.state.gov and on the Home Page click on the link to Registration. There you will find the application form and complete instructions for a complete submittal package.
If this is a renewal of registration, please note that renewal is exactly the same as registering for the first time. You must submit a complete package.

Send your documents by courier service (FedEx, DHL, or UPS) to:

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
PM/DDTC, SA-1, 12TH Floor
Attn: Registration
2401 E Street NW
Washington DC 20037


Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, XL
NOTE: Information in this message generally discusses controls and information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on this matter. The Response Team fields basic process and status questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control's licensing and compliance offices. The Response Team's services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion, general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.


This email is UNCLASSIFIED.

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