Primer Flash-hole Deburring Tool? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Primer Flash-hole Deburring Tool?

Posted: 7/29/2016 6:59:03 AM EDT

Good day all.

I've been reading large amounts of fantastic information on this forum over the years and have recently started wet tumbling and absolutely love being able to get shiny bright brass including primer pockets and the inside of each and every case is beautifully clean and shiny clean. Now this lets me see the burrs at the flash holes on the inside of the case.

Now that I can see those burrs what would be tool that is used to get rid of them?

Those burrs appear to have been formed when either a drill or some sort of pin punch pushed through while forming the flash hole.

The Lapua brass that I really like doesn't appear to have those burrs and the old saying that "You get what you pay for" is true for Lapua brass.

I also like Winchester brand brass that my local range has lots of free for the taking but has those interior flash hole burrs that I would like to get rid of and make those Winchester cases look more like my Lapua cases.

What tool would I need for this and what would you folks recommend?

Thanks.

Posted: 7/29/2016 7:02:57 AM EDT

[#1]

I use this

Posted: 7/29/2016 7:03:30 AM EDT

[#2]

I thought they burned away after you shoot them?

Posted: 7/29/2016 7:18:20 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
I use this

View Quote

Same here.

I deburr the flash holes on all rifle cases used for hunting and precision shooting. Blasting ammo not so much.

Posted: 7/29/2016 7:20:18 AM EDT

[#4]

I looked at that Lyman tool some time ago and got the impression that it was used only from the outside to ream, clean and uniform the flash hole.

Does it uniform pocket depth?

Does that black collar guide slide on the shaft and lock somehow to act as depth stop so that you can't take off too much? I assume that that tapered black guide/stop is used when deburring the inside?

Does it work universally with large and small primers?

It looks just like what I was looking for.

Thank you.

Posted: 7/29/2016 7:53:26 AM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
I looked at that Lyman tool some time ago and got the impression that it was used only from the outside to ream, clean and uniform the flash hole.

Does it uniform pocket depth?

Does that black collar guide slide on the shaft and lock somehow to act as depth stop so that you can't take off too much? I assume that that tapered black guide/stop is used when deburring the inside?

Does it work universally with large and small primers?

It looks just like what I was looking for.

Thank you.

View Quote

Never used it, but from description you insert it from the case mouth. So it would not do anything to the primer pocket. Not sure why the cutting part extends to the wider section (that does make it look like you would insert it from the primer pocket end to ream the pocket).

Posted: 7/29/2016 8:10:55 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:

I thought they burned away after you shoot them?

View Quote

If this is a lame attempt at at joke, take it to GD, not here. dryflash3

Posted: 7/29/2016 9:35:01 AM EDT

[#7]

This is the ultimate in flash hole de-burring tools. 21st century

Posted: 7/29/2016 9:52:36 AM EDT

[#8]

I use the Sinclair tool ( P/N - 749-002-709WB )

I just chuck it in the drill and start deburing

Posted: 7/29/2016 10:08:58 AM EDT

[#9]

The Lyman i use has many drawbacks. Hard to adjust for the correct depth of cut. All brass has to be trimmed to the same length. Mixed range brass, with different web thickness , may be a problem. It only removes burrs fron the flash hole. A different tool is needed to uniform. The 21st Century tool above, looks better. Looks like it stops when coming in contact with the web?

Posted: 7/29/2016 10:17:00 AM EDT

[#10]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140250/rcbs-flash-hole-deburring-tool-22-caliber

I use the older version of this tool. Change the pilot for different calibers.

Posted: 7/29/2016 10:19:57 AM EDT

[#11]

I am wondering how important the uniformity of flash hole is on cheap brass anyway?

Is it the limiting factor with accuracy? Or just the easiest to remedy.

For any rounds I make for ultimate accuracy, I buy Lapua and am too afraid to put a tool like this on the same bench with my $1-$2.50 brass.

For plinking, I am using mostly mixed headstamp or starline brass. For mixed headstamp, I would immagine there is other variation that plays a large role. I havent noticed an issue on Starline.

I am open to be swayed so if anyone has a story about how it has improved their results, I would be happy to hear.

Posted: 7/29/2016 10:28:20 AM EDT

[#12]

I'm too cheap to buy Lapua brass.

I process Win cases to get "almost as good as" Lapua.

I only clean up flasholes if I going for less than .75 5 shot groups with matched headstamps cases.

If your using mixed headstamps, then I wouldn't bother worrying about the flashole burr.

What I do is uniform all the primer pockets in any 223 case I load.

Then I don't have any high primer issues. Like flashole deburring, you only uniform primer pockets once on a case.

edit, so no one has to ask, I use a RCBS primer pocket uniformer chucked in a drill.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1458146201/rcbs-trim-mate-case-prep-center-carbide-primer-pocket-uniformer

I see they have carbide cutters now. Mine is a tool steel cutter, been working good since 1997.

Posted: 7/29/2016 10:58:11 AM EDT

[#13]

Good info Dryflash.

This thread reminds me that the flash holes I bored open for my subsonic 30-06 rounds probably need a cleanup.. Thanks, OP.. added more work to my busy weekend.

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:02:09 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I thought they burned away after you shoot them?

View Quote

If this is a lame attempt at at joke, take it to GD, not here. dryflash3

View Quote

Back off.

Here are the rules in this forum, from the conduct code,

SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS

The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored.

This being a tech forum, bad advice or jokes will not fly here.

dryflash3

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:21:17 AM EDT

[#15]

I use the lyman tool. It worked good but it is important to size all cases and trim to the same length before attempting to uniform the pockets. I used it on my 22 tcm and my 300 rsaum. Even with the same headstamp brass trimmed to the same length, the amount of material it took off varied from a light dusting of brass to huge shavings.

But a light shined down into the case shows they are visually very close to the same cut size. Just goes to show you that flash holes are very inconsistent.

I would not bother on any blasting brass. It is time consuming and your quality control is important to make sure you don't punch a hole right through the back of a case.

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:41:10 AM EDT

[#16]

Just to add, don't take the deburr tool to those lovely Lapua flash holes.

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:58:32 AM EDT

[#17]

BE CAREFUL when choosing flash uniforming tools.
Some brass has smaller flash holes than standard (0.080") like Lapua 6MM BR, 22 PPC, 6.5x47, and 308 Palma.
Some tools like the RCBS one requires the use of a pilot, just like the Redding does, too.
Whereas, others have taper pilot that you adjust to your needs.

Most brass when made has the flash hole punched, versus having it drilled.

Reloaders who shoot mixed head stamp rifle rounds larger than 223 need to rethink that idea. What is safe in one brand of brass may not be in another. You are skewing your results.
Same headstamp and same # of firings for consistency.

Posted: 7/29/2016 12:45:21 PM EDT

[#18]

I see I'm tapping a lot of real-world wisdom here, thank you.

I used some points to order a Lyman flash hole tool.

I like to use mixed head-stamp brass for blasting so lots of case prep is skipped on the stuff that is fun and skill(s) building but basically making smoke.

When I first build a rifle I really enjoy seeing just how much accuracy can be wrung out of it. That's where I sit down and see how I can make my ammunition as consistent as possible, i.e. weight-sorting bullets, uniforming primer pockets, sorting head-stamps, Lapua brass etc. and the new Lyman tool is on its way.

Thanks again everybody.

Posted: 7/29/2016 1:18:39 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:

Back off.

Here are the rules in this forum, from the conduct code,

SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS

The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored.

This being a tech forum, bad advice or jokes will not fly here.

dryflash3

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I thought they burned away after you shoot them?

If this is a lame attempt at at joke, take it to GD, not here. dryflash3

Back off.

Here are the rules in this forum, from the conduct code,

SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS

The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored.

This being a tech forum, bad advice or jokes will not fly here.

dryflash3

I'm not sure what your problem is but...

David Watson the author of "Abcs of Rifle Shooting" agrees that the burrs do in fact burn off after shooting.
So please let this "lame joke" thing you are hung up on pass from your mind.

Posted: 7/29/2016 1:58:02 PM EDT

[#20]

In a typical high power rifle the temperature actually raises (for a very short time) above what the barrel steel will melt at.

So it's not far stretch to believe small burrs could be burned away.

Back on topic. I use a 4" center drill to deburr the inside of the flash hole. Yeah it's slow but I don't do it very often.

Motor

Posted: 7/29/2016 2:29:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm not sure what your problem is but...

David Watson the author of "Abcs of Rifle Shooting" agrees that the burrs do in fact burn off after shooting.

So please let this "lame joke" thing you are hung up on pass from your mind.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

I thought they burned away after you shoot them?

If this is a lame attempt at at joke, take it to GD, not here. dryflash3

Back off.

Here are the rules in this forum, from the conduct code,

SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS

The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored.

This being a tech forum, bad advice or jokes will not fly here.

dryflash3

I'm not sure what your problem is but...

David Watson the author of "Abcs of Rifle Shooting" agrees that the burrs do in fact burn off after shooting.

So please let this "lame joke" thing you are hung up on pass from your mind.

So maybe you should have posted a link to that so as to be taken seriously.

In my experience the burrs don't burn off.

In any case if you want to discuss this further use IM's, no need to take this thread off course.

Posted: 7/29/2016 3:45:42 PM EDT

[#22]

Factory ammo that I shot that had brass I've wanted for precision loading I've used the lyman tool.

I use it on the rcbs case master machine, with the collar for centering up the case and depth. Just getting the burr and very slight bevel.

I've not used any other tool for the burrs so dont know what may be better or worse.

Posted: 7/29/2016 3:58:28 PM EDT

[#23]

You also mentioned primer pocket uniforming.. I like the K&M ones like here https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!c=190

Notice that there is a different one for large rifle and small rifle (also does small pistol) as well as one for large pistol. Some market the large rifle/pistol as the same, but they aren't.. in case you also do pistol reloading.

Posted: 7/29/2016 4:55:20 PM EDT

[#24]

I got a powdered 5 station Lyman case prep center a few Christmases ago and really like it and have since put different bits from various manufacturers on it.

One of its drawbacks is that its rpms are rather slow and I've taken common drills and put the primer pocket uniformer bits in the drill(s) and let the Lyman Prep Center spin the chamfer bits. An open station on the Lyman will now be home to the new Lyman flash hole deburring tool after I take the handle off.

Posted: 7/29/2016 6:34:34 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

I use the Sinclair tool ( P/N - 749-002-709WB )

I just chuck it in the drill and start deburing

View Quote

I do the same. Very consistent, works great

Posted: 7/29/2016 9:31:44 PM EDT

[#26]

I use the Lyman tool. Usually I don't bother for pistol and practice rifle ammo, but when I run into cases that are harder to deprime, I use the tool to drill the flash hole to "proper" diameter. Usually, there's a distinct change in the resistance felt once the flash hole is fully cut, so the stop isn't terribly critical. Deburring does NOT have any affect on the rest of the primer pocket. You might also need a primer pocket uniformer, and maybe a primer crimp removal tool of some kind.

Deburring the flash hole isn't absolutely necessary, but it can help keep a load consistent by ensuring the primer flash goes straight through and into the powder.

TINY burs can burn off, but if it's visible, it probably won't. Usually this is because the bur is out of the direct line of the primer flame, and there's no way to know if there was a bur before the first firing of a factory round, so if you find a bur, it almost certainly will not burn off.

For what it's worth, and no offense meant to any of the current authors/editors of The ABCs of Reloading, but nobody is in the same class as Dean Grennell. I don't recall Mr. Grennell mentioning anything like "primer flash hole burs burn off."

Posted: 7/30/2016 10:53:29 AM EDT

[#27]

Thank you for your input Mr. Porter.

Yours and dryflash and many others are why I know that I can get solid and indepth information and guidance on this forum.

If you guys don't know the answer then you sure know who does.

After seeing so many positive results from others with wet tumbling I decided to give it a go and really like seeing bright brass inside and out but seeing how nice my Lapua brass was compared to my Winchester and others with all those burrs around the flash-hole, some quite tall and pronounced, even in third fired cases, I decided to ask what tool was used to trim that off.

Posted: 7/30/2016 11:50:16 AM EDT

[#28]

Glad we could help.

Posted: 8/4/2016 9:54:24 AM EDT

[#29]

My apologies if this is the wrong spot for my question but I did search.

I was gifted these items, should I buy some additional pieces for them in order to clean primer pockets or order something else?

Posted: 8/4/2016 12:02:40 PM EDT

[#30]

Those are camfer and deburing tools and a case neck brush. None of those tools are for primer pockets. You will need different tools.

You will need:

primer pocket cleaner similar to this one
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/467111/lee-primer-pocket-cleaner

A crimp removal tool. (lots of options for this but this is what I use)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/804809/hornady-primer-pocket-reamer-package

This thread is about flash hole uniforming. which is not necessary for safe reloading, but could help your accuracy. For that information, read above.

Posted: 8/4/2016 12:07:35 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Those are camfer and deburing tools and a case neck brush. None of those tools are for primer pockets. You will need different tools.

You will need:

primer pocket cleaner similar to this one
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/467111/lee-primer-pocket-cleaner

A crimp removal tool. (lots of options for this but this is what I use)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/804809/hornady-primer-pocket-reamer-package

This thread is about flash hole uniforming. which is not necessary for safe reloading, but could help your accuracy. For that information, read above.

View Quote

Thank you.

Posted: 8/4/2016 12:25:04 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thank you.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Those are camfer and deburing tools and a case neck brush. None of those tools are for primer pockets. You will need different tools.

You will need:

primer pocket cleaner similar to this one

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/467111/lee-primer-pocket-cleaner

A crimp removal tool. (lots of options for this but this is what I use)

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/804809/hornady-primer-pocket-reamer-package

This thread is about flash hole uniforming. which is not necessary for safe reloading, but could help your accuracy. For that information, read above.

Thank you.

The handles are universal, you can thread other tools into them like primer pocket reamers, primer pocket uniformers, and flashole reamers.

Feel free to start a thread and ask any questions you may have.

Posted: 8/4/2016 12:27:23 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
The handles are universal, you can thread other tools into them like primer pocket reamers, primer pocket uniformers, and flashole reamers.
Feel free to start a thread and ask any questions you may have.

View Quote

That's what I thought, thank you and will do.

Posted: 8/8/2016 6:37:43 PM EDT

[#34]

Got to try the Lyman tool this weekend.

Thought I might mount it in an open stage on my Lyman reloading center but I like the feedback that I get with the handle. Not much material is being removed so a light spin with the fingers and the nice handle gives me a great feel for what's going on in there. I also like the cutting effect of the flash-hole pin cutting edges. It gives me a sense that the flash-holes will all be the exact same diameter.

The positives...now the negative: the deburring cutter edge is tapered on the Lyman tool and I think that CheveleDave's 21st Century tool would give a nicer, flatter and more uniform cut on the inside web; just wish it weren't so expensive.

Haven't shot the deburred brass yet.

Posted: 8/8/2016 7:32:50 PM EDT

[#35]

I do wish the flash hole burrs would burn off at firing, but they don't. Honestly, if they did burn off, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all because nobody would know of their existence in a previously fired case. Only new brass would have it.

BTW, I didn't see this mentioned earlier, but Lapua drills their flash holes, and almost everybody else seems to "punch" them.

Posted: 8/8/2016 7:52:07 PM EDT

[#36]

I've purchased several calibers of Lapua unprimed brass and the quality is superb. Almost like they're machined from billet brass, exaggerating a bit but really nice brass.

And I don't need to touch those Lapuas at all, just a slight trim after firing, and only a very slight amount ever comes off. The necks stay concentric and uniform and primer-pockets stay perfectly firm. Just a pleasure to reload over and over.

Posted: 8/8/2016 8:05:06 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
I do wish the flash hole burrs would burn off at firing, but they don't. Honestly, if they did burn off, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all because nobody would know of their existence in a previously fired case. Only new brass would have it.

BTW, I didn't see this mentioned earlier, but Lapua drills their flash holes, and almost everybody else seems to "punch" them.

View Quote

Not to mention the flash hole would also erode away.

Careful using some of those deburring tools, as others have said... all the brass needs to be the same OAL.... and even then your case web better be the same thickness. ( The Older Crappy FC thin webbed brass comes to mind )

IMHO, I would only deburr select cases, ones that are "hand picked"... based on approximately the same weight and minimal run out ( after trimming to the correct OAL ) ....and even then , ( No Offense intended ) You and your rifle better be up to the task, including being able to "see" a improvement in precision groups.... Again No Offense.

Groups can "Improve" enough on a GOOD day shooting v. a BAD day of shooting.... to make as much difference as deburring a flashole.

Deburring, while helpful.... really "shines" at longer distances then 100yds. At 1000 yds you REALLY want all your velocities to be as close as each other.

Again, your skills could affect your group size as much as deburring at shorter ranges.

With that said.... If you are doing it to help "put the odds in your favor" ... by all means do it. ( I would for a proven accurate load )

A lot of work can be spent trying to make our AR's tack drivers.... just remember .. they are not F-Class Rifles.

Read this article...

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/

And....

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/lid=16142/GunTechdetail/Flash-Hole-Deburring-May-2013-Reloading-Press

Posted: 8/8/2016 9:06:35 PM EDT

[#38]

I like that Sinclair Deluxe II tool! It's on my list for stuff to get next time I order from Sinclair/Brownell's.

As I've said, I've used the Lyman tool to "uniform" undersized flash holes, and it's very effective for this use. But...I have always felt that the bevel on the Lyman tool's cutter was likely to remove more material than I might want if I wasn't extra careful.

Oh, and I've actually used the Lyman tool on cases I couldn't get a depriming pin into, and it worked great as long as I didn't overdo it. Going too far tended to cut up the dead primer's anvil, which sometimes makes depriming harder.

Posted: 8/8/2016 9:22:39 PM EDT

[#39]

I'll still argue that the 21st Century is the best de-burring tool out there.

I actually find it fun to use.

Posted: 8/8/2016 10:19:23 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'll still argue that the 21st Century is the best de-burring tool out there.

I actually find it fun to use.

View Quote

Ok... that made me Lol..... deburring ... fun ?!... still smiling.

Posted: 8/11/2016 9:17:39 AM EDT

[#41]

Whatever you end up doing, be careful cleaning up the primer pocket. If you make the pocket deeper, you will possibly get light firing pin strikes. I traded for a load of "cleaned up" brass. Had to toss it. The pockets were reamed too shallow and the primers seated too deep.

Posted: 8/11/2016 10:55:54 AM EDT

[#42]

Interesting consideration about flash hole flash burning off.

While the book, 'ABC's of Rifle Shooting', Chapter 12, pg 127 states that the flashing does eventually burn off, it goes on to state that it takes time and the deburring tool is useful to uniform the inside of the hole which aids in higher precision ignition.

If you want to learn more, you can download this pdf of a 2015 Master's Thesis from the
Missouri University Of Science And Technology,
Titled
'The Effects Of
Physical Flash Hole Deviations On Factory-Grade Rifle Ammunition'.

(We pass on a lot of anecdotal information and first hand observations on these forums and I think it's good at times to read some actual, technical data and/or scholarly work on these subjects.)

Posted: 8/11/2016 12:23:42 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:

Whatever you end up doing, be careful cleaning up the primer pocket. If you make the pocket deeper, you will possibly get light firing pin strikes. I traded for a load of "cleaned up" brass. Had to toss it. The pockets were reamed too shallow and the primers seated too deep.

View Quote

Primer pocket uniforming is very useful. I uniform every 223 case I load.

But if uniforming tool is set wrong, yes problems will result. Chances are the guy you got that batch of cases from knew they were screwed up. Don't let that sour you on the process.

High primers are the usual cause of duds. They will normally fire on the second strike. First strike fully seats primer, second strike fires primer.

Posted: 8/11/2016 3:39:39 PM EDT

[#44]

Thank you dryflash.

That makes sense that the failures to light are caused mostly due to primers being too high; it males the round force the bolt out of battery just enough to keep the firing pin from its full travel.

Mr. Stoner's design is amazing.

My Lyman primer pocket uniformer cutters for both small and large are still going strong even after thousands of rounds being cut chucked into common electric drills; they have given me really nice uniform depth.

After my current divorce mess is as over as over can be in such a thing I'll devote some funds for that 21st Century cutter.

Thanks a lot everybody.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Primer Flash-hole Deburring Tool?

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