Well, I'm having a little issue with my reloads. I am shooting a Springfield XDM 3.8 and I love it... When it shoots my reloads. A little background.

Started off when I bought my Hornady LnL. Can be a little finicky, but that's another story. I started off with Accurate #7 under Pecision Delta 115gr FMJ-RN, with I think Winchester or CCI primers. Everything was fine except it burned a bit dirty. I ran out of primers and switched to Federal. Again, fired, just a little dirty. So I decided to switch powders to see if I could get something to burn a little cleaner. Here come my issues.

I switched to Power Pistol because my Hornady book said it performed on the better range of the powders tested. I started at least he bottom end of the load scale. Failure to eject. Bumped it up, FTE.  Bumped it up again. FTE. And again. FTE. SCREW IT, GOING TO MAX LOAD!!  FTE!!!!!

So I go to Cabelas last night to get a different powder. Got some Winchester 231. Did a little ladder load, lowest to highest. FREAKING FTE!!!!!

So today I go to Gander,because they have an indoor range, grab some Win white box 115gr. I didn't bring my range card nor did I want to pay for the hour just to shoot one round to see if it fire factory loads. So the guy I was talking to about this said that they had some rounds in the back and he would fire a few just to check to make sure it was MOC ok. Fired just fine. Ejected all 13 rounds no problem. So now I am at a loss. I really don't know  what to do now. I have tried with crimp, and without. My next step is to try different primers, but I just get the feeling it isn't going to make a difference. I don't have a chrono, but am getting ready to pull the trigger on the Caldwell one that you can hook to your phone to keep track of load info and stuff. Please, if anyone has any ideas, let me know. Thanks in advance.

Sac

Load data for the ones that didn't work:

1) Caliber - 9mm
2) Various brands of brass
3) Case length - .746
4) Bullet manufacturer - Precision Delta
5) Bullet weight - 115gr
6) Bullet type - FMJ-RN
7) Powder manufacturer - Alliant
8) Powder type - Power Pistol
9) Powder charge - 5.2, 5.6, 6.7  All FTE
10) Primer used - Federal Small Pistol
11) OAL - 1.100
12) Firearm tested in (with barrel length) Springfield XDM 3.8
13) Velocity - ?????

1) Caliber - 9mm
2) Various brands of brass
3) Case length - .746
4) Bullet manufacturer - Precision Delta
5) Bullet weight - 115gr
6) Bullet type - FMJ-RN
7) Powder manufacturer - Winchester
8) Powder type - 231
9) Powder charge - 4.1, 4.4  All FTE Didn't try max load of 4.7
10) Primer used - Federal Small Pistol
11) OAL - 1.100
12) Firearm tested in (with barrel length) Springfield XDM 3.8
13) Velocity - ?????

Edited to add load data

You need to post your actual load data and your dimensions.    

This can be corrected and it's not a primer issue.

This is relevant to my interests.

Is there a reason why 9mm loads would FTE and/or burn dirty through the barrel even if you are using normal components (major manufacturers, by the book, accurate load data)?

Done..  Sorry about that.

I would suggest that you may not be near max loads for that pistol and combination of components.  Load data range for 115 gr bullets varies by manual and components used.  What data are you using?  

Hodgdon's data for Win 231 has a load for 115 gr Gold Dot HP that has a higher range.  Granted that's not the same bullet, but could be indicative of where you are.  Normally your symptoms describe anemic loads.

Recommend you use a taper crimp die for the last step.

OP, also regarding Power Pistol, did you really jump from 5.6 gr to 6.7 gr and still have FTE, or is that a typo?

 Change one component at a time

 You changed powder  -- same problem  ( is your scale accurate ? check it )

 change primers  --  see what happens  ( I use CCI # 500 SP  have had only 1 out of 10,000 fail ( better than the other brands I have tried ))

 change bullets  --  see what happens   ( I use Win. 115gr FMJ-RN are good and Everglades Ammo 115gr FMJ-RN concave base (more accurate ) )

 cases  -- change how they are processed ( is something contaminating powder inside cases ? )

 crimp  --  try heavier,  try lighter

 But make only one change at a time so you can find the problem
 When I work up or try things I test 5 to 10 rounds of each type

 Win. 231 or Hodgden  HP-38  ( same powder )  is a very good clean burning powder for 9MM
   for a FMJ-RN  4.8gr is usually 1100fps    5.3gr is usually 1150fps   in 3 inch to 5 inch barrels
   unless you are using a plated bullet (  ?  )  
  I ran into FTE  at 3.8gr  in some pistols, again this is with a 115gr FMJ-RN
  ( one with a barrel of 2.75 inches is only accurate with 5.3gr HP-38 and has all sorts of problems with less powder )

Oh how I wish it were a typo..

On another note, I just bit the bullet and ordered this chronograph

This is an interesting situation.

POWDER:

Your powder choices are fine, although I rec. you not load max.loads.

PRIMERS:

Primer choice is not an issue. You're getting ignition and that's all you need to worry about provided the primers are seated properly

OAL-SEATING DEPTH:

A tad shorter than what I usually load for my Glock and Ruger pistols (we'll get back to this)

CRIMP

You say you've made rounds "with and without" a crimp. 9mm and pretty much any straight-walled handgun cartridge use a taper crimp which is actually not a crimp...you're simply straightening the case flare/bell. Go to these videos (Ammosmith) for some excellent tutorials on crimping:

Part 1

Part 2

GIven all the above is good (save seating depth) here are some things to consider:

The bullets you're using may be undersized. Do the spent casings have powder streaks down them? This would indicate escaping gases upon ignition which might cause the slide to not go all the way back which might cause FTE's. Heavy taper crimping will likely not solve this and cause even more problems (damage the bullet itself).
.
Extractor claw damaged. Yeah, I know...if it was broken ALL rounds would not eject but take a magnifying glass and look at it anyway just to be sure.

Your pistol may have a very heavy recoil spring. Does it?. I had a Steyr M9 that was noted for stovepipes using "IDPA loads" but not hotter ammo like Win White Box.

Bullet Seating Depth and Headspacing. Springfield XD's (and their predecessors the HS2000's) are known for having "short" chambers. In other words, the ogive of the bullet nose is not providing clearance and the bullet bites into the rifling (round does not headspace on the case mouth.

Are you using your pistol's barrel as a headspacing (chamber check) gauge? Because how the cartridge headspaces in the barrel's chamber is what matters over using a chamber check gauge.

Your resizing die may be out of spec and the result is a case mouth that's too "large". I had a dillon die with this problem but it was immediately apparent because I could take a finished round and push the bullet into the case with mere finger pressure. Dillon replaced it at no charge. Use your calipers to check this.

I take it you're a new reloader. Make damn sure you are thoroughly familiar as to how to properly adjust your dies.

Hope this helps.

Yeah..  I am using the Hornady reloading manual, and I says that 4.7 is max load for the Win 231.  Seeing you put these numbers up makes me feel a bit better.  There is nothing that I could possibly imagine contaminating powder.  And no, these are not plated bullets.I just pulled the trigger on a chrono.  It is a cheaper one that I posted right up there.^^  Hopefully this will help me out some.  I am getting some REALLY good info here.  Thanks so muc for all of your help so far.  The new toy should be here on Sat, but unfortunately I will be gone all weekend.  I guess I will get back to it on Monday.  Will keep this thread updated.  Thanks!

So there are a couple of things here that make sense..

1.  YES! It does look like there are some streaks down these of the case.  Just one section of it is black.  I will have to pay a little more attention to this.

2.  I am using the Hornady dies.  I was not using any crimp at all until today.  It was the last thing I tried before going to try factory ammo.

3.  The head spacing.  If it were "biting" into the rifling, wouldn't I see marks on a round if I loaded it and then ejected it?  I have look for this to make sure that things were not getting all jammed up and what not.  This is my second box of 1000 bullets.  Not that that means anything.  One run could be different than the other.  But the first box was loaded over the Accurate #7.

I looks like I am going to have a few things to try out.  I do think that I am going to put it aside and wait till the chrono gets here..  really not interested in blowing my pistol up.  Thanks so much for this info.

Sac

If I were you I would try heavier bullets first. I recently started shooting reloads in a new Glock 19. 90gr and 115 grain loads that are 100% in a Kahr and a Ruger will totally refuse to function in the Glock. 124, 147 and 150 grain bullets at even moderate power levels function it just fine. This is a cheap fix if it will work for you.

The Hogden website (Hogden, Winchester and IMR powders) shows 4.7 grains of 231 is their suggested starting load for a 115 grain bullet.  Check it out.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Do the plunk test on a few of you loaded rds, taper crimp for tapered case,adj length until they pass the plink test. no regular crimp.
Take the flare out of the case, .378-.380. aa no 7 for 9mm wiil be dirty, i'd keep on with the 231.run up the charge a bit, look at your primers, high pressure or no?
Empty cases that do eject, do they fall out the pistol, or get thrown a ways? Dirty cases?

I run 5.4 grains of PP and my glock eats them all day long,  could it be your extractor?  sorry if I missed that.....

FWIW- I've gotten best results in 9mm using:

Hodgdon HS-6 (best for all bullet weights)
AA #5
Ramshot Silhouette (best for +P loads)
CFE Pistol (very clean)

Also, I use CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum primers for 9mm, much better powder burn than standard primers.

The thing is, I have run these same 115gr bullets in this pistol before.  I did it with the AA #7, it just ran dirty.  Was trying to find something that burned a little more complete and cleaner.  And with the #7, it was quite accurate too.

Man, all these different resources!!  They all say different things!  Which one do you trust?  Do you load anything that is printed from a reputible source?

By the plink test, do you mean take a loaded round and make sure that is sits in the chamber the whole way?  If so, I have done that and had no problems.  Scared to run the charge up much higher.  Would like to wait until my chronograph arrives so I can at least see where I am at with bullet speed.  Compare that with what the book says I should be getting.  And none of the cases eject.  And they are clean.

Extractor is good..

Negative on the limp wrist.. I work them out daily.  

I know you've answered in the last post but I am going with it's being limp wristed.

Your loads aren't the problem, you say your extractor is fine, focus on your shooting technique.

I reload for my XD45 Service, XDm9, XDS 9mm, and 9mm XDSC and don't shoot any other pistols.  My 9mm reloads cover from 115-147gr bullets from various manufacturers, Titegroup, True Blue, Silhouette and CCI primers.

Almost all of my OAL's are at the long end and powder loads are middle of the road, the exception being some of my carry loads. Never a FTE.

XD series of pistols seem to be more prone to shooters limp wristing for some reason or that seems to be a common issue/fix on the XD forum.

You can go ahead and think that it is limp wrist.  It is not.  I carried a Beretta in the service for long enough, and qualified just fine for several years.  I have shot over 1000 reloads with this pistol just fine.  I didn't have a problem until I switched powder.

OP already said, factory loads shoot fine from the same gun.

Here's a thought OP: is anything contaminating the powder?  Case lube or a chemical of some kind?

I don't shoot lead or plated bullets in 9mm.

Maximum loads as tested in my firearms is 5.9 grains of Power Pistol with 115 grain Hornady XTP seated at 1.070". This creates 1170 fps from my handguns +/- depending on barrel length.

While this isn't smoking hot, it is faster than most non +P loads for 115 grain ammo.

It would give me pause to raise it any more, not even a little. Jumping to 6.7 is out-of-the question.

I believe Delta bullets should be treated like lead, lighter loads of fast burning powders. WW-231 would fit in that class.

Have you removed the barrel from the handgun and used it as a gage for your loaded rounds? The ammo should easily fit into and fall free from the chamber. Does the bullet stick in the rifling if you push on the case head?

How much crimp are you using? You should only crimp enough to remove the flair created when you belled the case mouth to accept a bullet, no more, no less.

Is the handgun brand new? If so lube it liberally and hold it firmly when fired.

My goto powder charge for W231 is 5.4 grains running 115gr Berry's/Frontier bullets, it cycles everything from my M&P Shield all the way up to my M&P 9L. I have loaded this charge forever and ran it when I was shooting local steel matches. I would bump up your 231 charge a little bit at a time till it runs where you want it.. I would also suggest getting a chronograph if you don't already have one..  Also Power Pistol does not like to run on light charges either, it like to be run in the upper charge weights, I run that powder for 38 Super+P 124 GDHP loads and works the best near the top of the loading data.

Hey folks..  I am still here and will reply more after the weekend.  I will be getting my chronograph by Monday and will try more load a few more rounds with out crimp with the win 231(because that is what is in my loader now) and see what I come up with.. I am not ignoring you guys or butt hurt because some people think that I am limp wristed.  But there isn't much more that I can tell you guys with out finding out how fast these bullets are traveling, and I just don't have time.  Anyway, have a good weekend and I will report more when I find out more! Peace!

5.4gr is already over what my Hornady book says is max load.  Thats where I get confused.  WHICH BOOK IS RIGHT!!

Maybe but all his PP loads should have cycled any normal functioning handgun

Each book is right - for the components, firearms, and conditions in each test.  No book is absolute.  They are guides and that is all, its up to reloaders to follow proper procedures.  You are doing the right thing in attempting to work up.  

However I do not think you have found the right range yet for the W231, a great pistol powder.  It is possible you have a firearm that has an excessively stiff spring or some other anomaly is at work.  The only thing to do is go slow and cautiously try different options.

Both

Depends on the exact firearm or pressure barrel used for testing

I usually check data from multiple sources and go from there.

Every single load I use is over max according to Hornady. I use Lyman and powder mfgr data personally.

OP, do you have any other 9mm pistols in which you can shoot your reloads?

You might also want to go to ARFCOM's Handguns/Springfield sub-forum, post you have an XDM compact and ask if anyone else who has any experiences using reloads.

I do not have another 9mm... Yet

It has been my experience also that a lot of the Hornady data is very conservative.

OP, like others have said, use multiple resources. As you gain experience, you can extrapolate data to use for various components. Just work up carefully and watch for pressure signs.

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I think the compact guns will have a stiffer spring.

I'm a big fan of the XD/M pistols and haven't had any issues. I only shoot reloads, mainly Berry's plated.

I also use an LNL press.
OP, feel free to pm if you'd like.

Well, here we go..  Just got back for shooting with the new chronograph, and besides trying to see how bulletproof my new chrono is(yeah thats right, Ima  fucktard and accidentally grazed it), I learned a bit.  These bullets are going really slow!  Did a ladder load with the Win 231 and here are the loads and speeds.

5 rds 4.4gr:

1. 532FPS
2. 585
3. 572
4. 574
5. 555

5rds 4.8gr

1. 583FPS
2. 580
3. 574
4. 577
5. 513

5rds 5.0gr

1. 635FPS
2. DOOOH!!
3. Not on
4. 591
5. 608

SO as you can see, these things are really crawling.  I will start with the next load at about 5.5gr and go from there.  A few of the number are all over, but I expect that.  Anyway.  there we have it.  Let hear it!! Thanks.

Something is not right, either your scale is off or your chrono is jacked up. Your not even close to expect FPS for any of those loads and by close your starting load is 1/2 of expected FPS.

How are you weighing your loads to dial in your LNL? I've got one and once dialed in is very accurate.

I am using a scale.  Granted, it is probably a POS.  I weigh a case empty and then zero the scale, put it through the press to fill it, then put it back on the scale.  Any recommendations on a for a reasonably priced scale?  Under $100?

First,  a reasonably good low cost scale is the RCBS Rangemaster 750.

Next you set up your powder measure by calibrating your scale with the weights provided first and then zero it. Drop a charge into the case and then dump the powder into the pan that comes with the scale. Dump the powder back into the hopper and check at least 3 times to verify that is the weight that is consistently being dropped and then make adjustments as necessary up or down to desired charge weight.  Once you've got this dialed in your ready to move into the production mode. I would recommend in your case to be comfortable check every tenth round for the first hundred to be sure things are still good.

You cannot determine charge weights by using cases, there is way too much variation. That is why your so far off. Your lucky you haven't ended up with a squib yet.

If you use a case and zero it out and then weigh it after powder drop, how would that be different then using the pan that came with the scale? If you start with a zeroed sacle, wouldnt either way work?

Thats kinda what I thought.  But I still think that my scale is a piece of shit. So I went and got a Frankfort Arsenal Platinum with a powder trickle.  Tomorrow morning I will start over..  I will get to the bottom of this, no matter how much it costs me!!!!!

Houston we have LIFTOFF!!!!!  My piece of shit scale was actually a piece of shit scale!!!  I can tell so clearly that this is going to be my fix.  Thank goodness.  Now I can get to the fun part, shooting!!!  Thanks everyone for all the help.  By the way, anyone know where the "Egg on your face" emotion is?

Sac. Out!

Glad we determined the issue was the scale.  Now the real question in my mind is how much powder your old AA#7 load actually had in it.

Normally I would say that It ran dirty because 115 is too light a bullet to get good clean ignition with AA#7.

Win 231 ought to work ok,  But given the short barrel I would expect it to only function near the upper end of the load range.

You asked about load manuals and which is "right".  None of them are, and all of them are, depending on parameters.  Hornady is known to be a bit shall we say conservative.


For a 115 grain Jacketed bullet, 9mm Luger, with Win231 I show the following MAX in my manuals:

Hornady = 4.7
Speer = 4.9
Nosler = 5.0
Lee = 5.1
Sierra = 5.5

Given that data set, I'd throw out the lowest and highest,  and load 4.6, 4.8, and 5.0, watching for excessive pressure along the way.

Don't know if mentioned, but get a box of factory and be sure gun works with it NOW. How many rounds through the gun? Is it past the break-in period?


From my shooting, failure to eject has often been a gun issue and not a result of any load in a manual.


I have a 9x21 Lim at thst shot well one week. Next week, with the same loads from the same lot, the gun will not eject (and these are not mild loads). Extractor looks fine, so, when I am done with air conditioner repairs and car repairs and medical bills, it will go to a gunsmith.


I check several sources and start loading at the lowest start load and very seldom have a FTE due to the start load, and COL and crimp does not make that big a difference.


 

Well, went and shot...  IT'S GOOD!!  I started at the 4.1, and it seemed to shoot well.  I shot 25 rounds and have no malfunctions!.  I was not shooting for accuracy, just to test speed.  I will start to play with that a little now.  Here are the results..

Created: 08/01/16 11:34 AM
Description: 4.1gr Win 231 115gr FMJRN
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Bullet Weight(gr): 115.00
Temp: 81 °F
BP: 30.12 inHg

#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
13    1016    0.00    0.00    
12    939      0.00    0.00    
11    959      0.00    0.00    
10    950      0.00    0.00    
9    1000    0.00    0.00    
8    1082    0.00    0.00    
7    1018    0.00    0.00    
6    1012    0.00    0.00    
5    1000    0.00    0.00    
4    1065    0.00    0.00    
3    918      0.00    0.00    
2    932      0.00    0.00    
1    1065    0.00    0.00    
Average: 996.6 FPS
SD: 54.0 FPS
Min: 918 FPS
Max: 1082 FPS
Spread: 164 FPS
True MV: 997 FPS


Created: 08/01/16 11:38 AM
Description: 4.1gr Win 231 115gr FMJRN
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 115.00
Temp: 81 °F
BP: 30.12 inHg

#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
11    1079    0.00    0.00    
10    1070    0.00    0.00    
9    1069    0.00    0.00    
8    1061    0.00    0.00    
7    1072    0.00    0.00    
6    1076    0.00    0.00    
5    1081    0.00    0.00    
4    1067    0.00    0.00    
3    1083    0.00    0.00    
2    947      0.00    0.00    
1    1073    0.00    0.00    
Average: 1061.6 FPS
SD: 38.6 FPS
Min: 947 FPS
Max: 1083 FPS
Spread: 136 FPS
True MV: 1062 FPS

Thanks again for all the help.

Congratulations on finding the problem. I just saw this thread, but I will add, you should be doing a visual check of your cases before putting the bullet on it. At the least, use a powder cop. Either of these, and you would most likely have seen the variation in your powder levels in the cases. I too have a LnL, and I check my powder levels between station 3 and 4 as the brass is on the downstroke before my bullet goes in the case. After you do a few, you'll easily see if you're high or low for some reason. If you need a powder cop, PM me, I have a spare, and I could put it on the EE for you. I also got the LnL LED strip light from Inline Fabrication to give me a little more light to see the cases.

I do have a powder cop.  I wasn't getting variation in the filling of the cases, I just wasn't getting enough powder at all.  My scale was telling me I was, it just wasn't.  I appreciate the offer on the powder cop though. I do need more light in my reloading room.  It is kinda bare bones at the moment.  I just built a new house last year, and am still getting things setup down there.  I only have one outlet right now and a bench.  That is it. In time.