I bought a few thousand XTreme 115 gr. 9mm plated bullets a few months back, as they had them on sale and not all weights / styles were available at most retailers.  I typically load 147s to use with suppressors, and I like 124s for non-suppressed purposes.  In fact, I don't think I've loaded 115s for several years now.  

The initial results were pretty unimpressive, accuracy-wise.  I've been loading plated bullets since the late 90s without any issues.  I've primarily used Berry's along with some Rainier.  I have loaded XTreme bullets before with decent results, but those were 147 grain bullets.  I realize you can easily over-crimp plated bullets, and it can cause issues.  So I did an experiment.  I've tried measuring at the case mouth to get an idea of how much crimp is applied, but between case thickness variations, and difficulty getting the very outside edge of the case, this can sometimes give unreliable results.  So this time around, I crimped and pulled the bullets.  That way, I could measure the actual crimp on the bullet its self.  

One set of bullets was crimped at .352" and the other at .354".  I also loaded some Rainier 147 gr. bullets the same way, to see if there was any effect there.  See below.



Unfortunately, I seemed to get poor results with either crimp set.  The useful information I got was that I was not really getting any velocity increase by going to a heavier crimp, so there is no reason to crimp in that manner.

I was questioning my loading practices, but I tried some jacketed bullets that I'd loaded previously and they produced a group half the size of the XTreme bullet loads.  So were the bullets no good?  I've shot their other bullets with good results.

So I bought some Berry's 115 gr. bullets to test them against.  One thing I noticed when measuring the two was that the Berry's bullet is .356" diameter, and the XTreme bullet is .355".  Looking at their online listings, I see the XTreme 9mm bullets up through 135 gr. are .355", but the 147s are .356".  

So I load up a bunch of each, using Win 231, Win small pistol primers, and mixed range brass.  I ended up bringing three guns and four barrels to the range today.  I brought a Glock 17 with a factory barrel and a Lone Wolf barrel, a Glock 23 with a Lone Wolf 40-to-9mm conversion barrel, and an HK P9S.  Of those, two barrels have cut rifling, and two have polygonal rifling.  



I shot 10-round groups from each, offhand at 10 yards.  All shots went through the chronograph.  Both loads through all barrels averaged between 1225 and 1250 fps.  And without fail, the Berry's loads produced much tighter groups through the Glock barrels.  In all instances, the XTreme bullets are on the left, and Berry's are on the right.  See below.

Glock 17 with factory barrel:


Glock 17 with Lone Wolf barrel:


Glock 23 with Lone Wolf conversion barrel:


One would start to think the bullets may be suspect.  As it turns out, both the Glock factory barrel and the Lone Wolf barrels seem to prefer a .356" bullet.  But find a gun that likes .355" bullets, and it's a different story.  By far the best group of the day was from the XTreme bullets through the HK P9S.  

P9S


So, if you end up with a 9mm that won't group, try going up or down by .001".  It may make all the difference in the world.  I'm going to have to try this out with a few other guns, and see which gun prefers what size of bullet.

Can you slug the bore?

Garrett,, you making me nervous there

I just got (1000) of the Extreme 147's about a week ago,, not loaded them yet..  How much crimp you putting to your cases (OD measure at case mouth) ?? Looks like you put a lick'n on them bullets..

Something I take and do also,, when loading plated, I take and hit case mouth with chamfer to remove any chance of small burr that act like fishhook/barb that might get crimped into the plating and cut/tear it as bullet leave case during firing (smooth bullet release).. I take and figure 1 bullet diameter, add 2 case wall thickness, subtract 0.001 for total OD of case at mouth..

Hopefully these work out for me.. they was kinda free via Hyundai tech awards card I used to pay for them

Look at the 115 gr. bullet on the right , and you can barely make out the crimp line.  That's what I ended up going with.  

I only loaded up enough to go test with today.  I'll need to load up a few more and to see if I can get some case mouth OD measurements.  

As noted, I didn't have these issues with the 147s when I used them.  But then those are sized at .356" and not .355".  

Next time out I'll have to try them in the M11, Uzi, and Destroyer Carbine and see if any of those like the smaller bullets.

I'm researching plated 147gr's through suppressors and another one of your thread's popped up Garrett. In preparation for my first suppressor which should be approved shortly I've been planning to shoot lead 147gr TC, but when I saw that I can snag 3,000 Xtreme 147gr plated bullets for $277 shipped (cheaper if I wait for a discount code) I began to rethink whether it's really worth it to shoot lead to save roughly 33%, especially once my M11/9 is approved and I start shooting fullauto through my VERS 9S with it's aluminum baffles. It seems that if I am careful and only do a very light crimp (really just enough to take out the bell in the mouth) and drive them slow (as I planned to anyway since I'll be loading subsonic 9mm) then I shouldn't worry too much about jacket separation and the resulting cooper flakes with plated 147gr. Even if flaking does occur, it sounds like it won't damage the baffles especially if they are steel. I know you said you have experience shooting Xtreme 147gr through suppressors so I was hoping maybe you could expand on that point a little. I was also curious if you were shooting the Xtreme 147gr bullets in your video where you demo the VERS 9S. Thanks

+1

your main issue is the bullets RAINIER bullets are electro plated or whatever fancy word they call it but really just a copper wash much thinner than normal plated actually they make berrys look like TRUE FMJ'S I know I battled through 3k of them and if yu lok at them wrong the plating cracks deforms ect now an above member mentioned extreme bullets which I just ran across at a show and their more like a jacketed with a much thicker plating and can be driven faster. as far as this thread try a true plated bullet just my .02

From all the shooting I've done, I don't ever recall seeing any copper flakes left inside the can.  Occasionally they leave a neat swirl pattern on the target, which may indicate a jacket coming apart.  But I don't know how to verify that.  
I did see a couple of the .355" bullets where it looked like they were starting to tumble when they hit the paper.  That's something else to watch for.  



Actually, I get a lot of sand blasting from the powder residue hitting the baffles.  It's not enough to start eating away the baffles.  More a matter of just giving the surface a bumpy appearance.  Even on my Trident-9, which has a stainless blast baffle, you can see some sand blasting effect on the subsequent aluminum baffles.  But it's nothing I'm worried about.  With subs, I primarily load with Win 231, Vhit N320 and N330.  

I'm more concerned about the lead / carbon buildup in my CAC-45, which I use for full-auto .22LR shooting.  It has built up to the point that I have a solid coating through the entire blast chamber.  I really need to get around to sending it in to get cleaned.  

I'll see if I can get some pictures of my baffles later on this afternoon.

Although 9mm is .355, most 9mm barrels are .356-.357 in actuality.  You might want to slug the bores of your 9mm's to be sure.  Some euro 9mm's go as much as .358.  The best bet is to run as large a bullet as your case/chamber dimensions will allow to properly chamber.  Unless you're trying for 9mm Major, you should be fine pressure-wise....just start a bit low and work up.

ETA, it could be that 1:  the larger bullets are allowing the case to center in the chamber better and/or 2:  Under the proper load, the .355 bullets are slugging up in the chamber, which may be the case if the plating is thinner.

Thanks for the feedback. Xtreme only has the 147gr sized in .356 and .357 diameter. With lead i usually go .001-.002 over the bore, but with plated I suspect .356 should stabilize fine across all my pistols and the max-11, whereas .357 might be a little tight in the chamber/bore and spike pressure. Do you recall which you've used? I'd also be interested in the load you're using (especially in the max-11) since I'll also be using W231.

Why not just buy the fatties? You can reduce in a Lee push through die if you need to.

Great info, Thanks for taking the time to do the leg work.

I have been having a hell of a time with a box of Rainier Ballistics .40 cal 180g FRN bullets.     This could very well be part of the reason.    I know I am not crimping so tight I am breaking the copper but I suppose it's possible I am over doing it.    I mean they are so crappy they are shooting like 7 inch groups at 21 feet.

Just curious I am loading the 115gr xtremes now and am wanting to try some 147's for IDPA with my Glock 19 with a Lone Wolf barrel. Are you using the regular 147 gr xtremes or the 147 gr heavy plate concave base. I wonder how the heavier plating affects crimp and accuracy?

I don't believe the heavy plating was an option when I last bought some 147s (last summer).  To be honest, you won't be pushing them very hard at all to make the IDPA power factor.  I don't know that I'd bother paying extra for the heavy plating.  But if you do, make sure to report back and let the rest of us know how they perform.

Here's the VERS-9S.  It's had at least a few thousand plated and jacketed 9mms, as well as a couple hundred subsonic .300 Whisper.  You can see the sand blasted appearance I was talking about.  There is a little carbon ridge building up on the sidewalls, but not much yet.  



Compare that to the CAC-45, which gets lead 9mm bullets, as well as more than a few .22LR mag dumps.  



Compare that to 1.5 years ago when the VERS-9S was unfired, and you could still see the ridges on CAC-45's blast baffle.

I bought 500 xtreme 124gr RN to try out a few weeks ago for uspsa. Just made it to the range today (cancelled match for this weekend) and had some pretty good results with my reloads. Put a super light crimp on them and they grouped just fine. I wish I would have seen this thread before so I could have taken some pictures.

Actually, I've run some Berry's 158 gr. .357" bullets through the 9mm subguns as well.  They ran fine and didn't show any signs of excessive pressure.  They actually have less energy than a 124 or 147 gr. bullet.  But they are typically some of the quieter loads out there.  So for just quiet plinking they work great.  For subgun matches where you need energy to push down heavy plates the 124s or 147s usually work best.

Looks like with the 147s I run 4.0 to 4.2 gr. of 231.  That's probably about as hard as you want to push them with that powder.  But they sound good, and have been reasonably accurate, provided the bullet likes that gun, as I'm discovering.

I just loaded up a handful.  Depending on the case, I get anywhere from .372" to .374" measuring the OD at the mouth of the case.  These would be set like the lightly crimped bullet in my first post.  Perhaps more telling, the mouth of the cases measure .002" smaller than the case body farther back, but still adjacent to where the bullet is still seated.  

Of course, of the 7 rounds l loaded, it turns out I had 4 different brands of brass, and one nickled case.  But then since I'm not separating by case head for 9mm, I suppose that's a good way to check variation.

Thanks for the pictures, that helps put things in perspective. I am no expert, but that VERS 9S looks pretty good for several thousand rounds of 9mm. After 100rds of my lead reloads through my friends Liberty Mystic it looked worse than that.

That CAC45 looks nasty though. Do you think it's even possible to clean that up since it can't be dipped? I know if anyone can do it it would be Tom, but is there a point at which a suppressor just can't be cleaned when it has that type of buildup?

Well this is interesting.......I bought some 124 RN from RMR and they measured .001 undersize @ .354. They were blemish seconds but not for undersize according to RMR.
While loading had a couple go all the way to the bottom of the case when seating, and several others able to be set back when pressing a loaded round against the bench.
Took them to the range (IDPA/USPSA minor load with 4.2 Titegroup) and shot them through a G-34. Right off the bat I could tell this was a jacked up load. Made that squibby little report minor loaded 147's do which I hate.
Every 4 or 5 rounds or so would full key hole with even more pronounced squibby report.

Just out of curiosity, I shot another minor load with a Frontier PMP 124 RN that measure .355 and they were flawless with one ragged hole accuracy.....and no squibby report.

To be fair, RMR sent me a shipping label and gave a full refund on the remaining bullets. I also shoot their 40 180 HP's. They measure .400 and are tack drivers as well.
RMR is a great company with excellent service and super fast shipping. Just need to fix the undersize issue with their 124 RN bullet.

Bottom line, .355 work well in most barrels but even .001 undersize are disaster especially with Glock poly barrels.

BTW....I also had a terrible time with Rainier 180 FP's and Glocks. They measured slightly under .400 and performed like the undersize 124 RMR bullets.

Berry's advertises .001 over typical groove diameter in all that they sell.


TR

Bummer.  I was going to try some of these, since their price for blems is pretty good.  

Keep in mind, most sets of calipers will be accurate to within +/- .001".  Both of my sets tend to read nearly .001" low.  I wonder if that is the case with yours as well.  For bullet diameters, I use a micrometer, which will measure to .0001".

I've had just the opposite experience. In my Glocks Xtreme have been far superior to Berry's.

Thanks... Helpful info.

Made a mistake in my last post......the Frontier PMP 124 RN measured .355.


TR

Very interesting. I've been having issues with reloads out of my 938, maybe I'll try a different brand of bullet that sizes their bullets a bit larger.

Think this thread can be added to a safe list for future reference?

Just for reference
I just measured a bunch..
X-Treme 115 average .355
X-Treme  124 average .355 to .356
Berrys. ...124 average .356

Thanks Dryflash have to put the avatar back to normal from this Christmas one, with all the snow we still have I guess it has slipped my mind.

This info on the diameter of the 9mm projectiles IS very interesting as I WIll be loading for the wifes new Soeger cougar 9mm pistol.

Edit: have had the stars for a few years now, then again I have been busy the past few years

I've got 3k here and the few I measured were not undersized.

I have seen various crimp size and bullet pull using differant brands of cases in the 9mm
Remington cases need more of a taper crimp than winchester and federal.
Take your measurements if you are using mixed cases.
Hope this helps-
John

Okay - Round 2 was not so one-sided.  My take-away from all of this was not that one size is superior.  Rather, you need to try different bullets / diameters to see what your guns preference is.  

This time, I thought about shooting the shoulder-fired guns from a bench.  That would take some of the human element out and give you a better idea of the bullet's accuracy potential.  But in the end, I decided to keep the testing consistent, shooting offhand from 10 yards.  It gives me a better idea of what I can expect for practical accuracy from each bullet / gun combo.  

Some guns seemed to shoot both bullets equally well.  Others had a definite preference.  

This time around I ran both bullets through a Beretta 92, bolt-action 9x19 Destroyer Carbine, Group Uzi, and an M11/9 with an Autowerkes upper and a Lage Max-11 upper.



Results below.  As before, the XTreme 115 gr. bullets were shot at the target on the left and the Berry's 115 on the right.

The Beretta 92 seemed to prefer XTreme:



The Destroyer seemed to have a slight preference for the Berry's.  The first 4 or 5 shots were all in one ragged hole.  But then it started opening up to about the same size as the XTreme load.



The Uzi did a little better with the XTremes.



The M11 Autowerkes upper did pretty well with both loads.



And the Lage upper seems to prefer the .356" Berry's bullets.