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Posted: 3/15/2013 8:07:27 PM EDT
I haven't seen any threads on this, but someone may be interested. Fred Craig only recommended W296/H110, and said that I would not be able to get the velocity of the factory ammo. My initial results with Lil'gun are promising, and I will update with my final results. Any other input would be appreciated.
Link Posted: 3/15/2013 10:58:40 PM EDT
Where did you get brass/dies?
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 7:02:45 AM EDT
Lee makes the dies as a standard special order, ie you don't need to send brass in, but they are not taking orders til April when I called them a month ago.
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 9:21:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 9:37:44 AM EDT
I purchased the pistol, factory ammo, dies, and loose bullets from the developer, Fred Craig. Bullets are 40gr jacketed soft point, and the factory loaded ammo is about 2150fps across my chrono out of a 5in 1911. With maximum recommended load of H110 I got 1950fps. I compared to data to .22 Hornet, and saw that Lil Gun may be good. My initial loads look promising, and I am checking some more this afternoon. I also want to try Alliant 300MP, but have yet to find any. I was told that the factory powder is a .22 magnum type that is not available to the masses.
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 2:56:11 PM EDT
How much H110 are you using to get to 1950 fps? I have been loading 11 gr of H110 with Winchester SPP but I don't have a chrono. I am also loading 35gr VMax with 11.6gr with Remington 6 1/2 primers.
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 6:03:30 PM EDT
10grs of H110 with 40gr bullet got me 1950fps. My test loads today with Hodgen Lil'gun got 2250fps. Still need to load and shot some more, but pressure signs were "ok'. Using small rifle primers, I am wary of just using the primers as indicators. I just ran them over the chronograph, and not checking accuracy. Tomorrow will be a busy day.
Link Posted: 3/17/2013 11:05:52 AM EDT
Can you make 22 TCM brass out of .223 in the same way that one makes 300 Blackout brass?

Link Posted: 3/17/2013 11:08:42 AM EDT
Tagged. I would like to pick one of these up and start reloading for it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2013 12:09:04 PM EDT
10.5gr of 'Lil Gun duplicates factory velocity at 2100-2150fps. I am not getting the accuracy I would like though. So far, it seems I can match factory accuracy and give up 200fps with H110, or match factory velocity and give up 2 1/2" of accuracy at 25yds with 'Lil Gun.

I will keep trying, maybe I'm just not shooting well today.

I would think that the cases could be formed from .223, it just seems like a long way to size down the neck. I guess I will try that too.
Link Posted: 3/17/2013 12:42:10 PM EDT
I just heard about this round yesterday watching "Shooting Gallery" on TV. I'm intrigued. To me this is what the 5.7 should have been. Based off the 223 not the 25 acp.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 5:22:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tReznr:
Can you make 22 TCM brass out of .223 in the same way that one makes 300 Blackout brass?


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/tReznr/Arfcom/Whisper-brass.jpg


Yes 22 TCM brass can be made from 223 brass. Here is the website that helped me...
Making 22 TCM brass
1) Cut brass to 1.068
2) Deburr
3) Anneal
4) Size
5) Trim
6) I have to turn the necks on mine because they end up being .018" thick and won't chamber. I turn them down to around 0.014".
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 6:45:18 PM EDT
Bookmarked for when I'm sober, thank you. Don't know why I hadn't found this. I would only question the velocities, I'm getting more across the board, which matches the claimed velocities.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 7:29:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaddGoneMadd:
Bookmarked for when I'm sober, thank you. Don't know why I hadn't found this. I would only question the velocities, I'm getting more across the board, which matches the claimed velocities.


Lol, yup, did the same thing. I should have jumped on those dies when I saw them available.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 4:43:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 4:44:14 PM EDT by JDouglas]
Originally Posted By DaddGoneMadd:
Bookmarked for when I'm sober, thank you. Don't know why I hadn't found this. I would only question the velocities, I'm getting more across the board, which matches the claimed velocities.


keystoneweapons is getting slower velocities than other 22 TCM pistol because his is custom built by Fred Craig with a 4 1/4 inch barrel. RIA 22 TCM has a 5" barrel.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 4:47:26 PM EDT
I am curious of this round and its capabilities.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:53:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JDouglas:
Originally Posted By DaddGoneMadd:
Bookmarked for when I'm sober, thank you. Don't know why I hadn't found this. I would only question the velocities, I'm getting more across the board, which matches the claimed velocities.


keystoneweapons is getting slower velocities than other 22 TCM pistol because his is custom built by Fred Craig with a 4 1/4 inch barrel. RIA 22 TCM has a 5" barrel.


And I'm STILL learning. Thank you.
Link Posted: 4/15/2013 12:41:40 PM EDT
I plan to chamber an AR15 brl in this. Looking at a 7.5" brl but I am setting it up to load all the bulllets up to the 90g HPBT. I also want to see how it does as a subsonic round. Thinking a HI/LOW gas block to run everything. The factory brass is calling for 38,000psi max. My understanding is they are using shortened 223/5.56 brass. Anyone know if this brass can handle 45-50,000psi?
Thanks, Ron
Link Posted: 4/16/2013 2:14:37 PM EDT
I don't have any experience with the 22CTM, but rounds that use Lil' Gun and H110 well also like 2400. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 4/16/2013 3:32:45 PM EDT
Go careful with the lil'gun. It was my go to powder for 357 carbine loads, and I was getting really impressive velocities with safe pressures. However, I noticed something: Barrel heat was extreme. A little research turned up some negative information. Lil'gun has been implicated in some rather serious forcing cone erosion and cracking in some guns (primarily revolvers). Freedom Arms (which I regard as a decent quality maker) has tested it in a m83 357. Their tests reveal extreme heat and wear in very short periods of time with Lil-gun. I am not talking about thousands or even hundreds of rounds. If memory serves correctly, their tests were with something like 50 rounds (fifty).

So, while Lilgun may generate some great velocities, I wouldn't want to run a lot of speed drills with TCM loaded with LilGun. You might see some dramatically increased barrel wear.
Link Posted: 5/4/2013 3:27:46 PM EDT
Finally found some Alliant 300-MP to try. Working up cautiously, I was able to match factory loads (2150fps) with safe pressure signs, and better them (2300fps) with pressure issues. Both showed very good accuracy. Point of impact changed to the right and high. I will keep working and update.

Summary-

H110 matches factory accuracy, but 250-300fps slower.

Lil' gun matches factory velocity, but unacceptable accuracy.

300-MP in brief testing matches velocity and accuracy.

It's a fun gun and makes loud noises.
Link Posted: 5/4/2013 7:42:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2013 1:59:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Thanks for the update, an interesting caliber.

The more I see this thread topped, the more I want one of these guns.


Link Posted: 6/4/2013 9:26:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/4/2013 9:34:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tReznr:
Where did you get brass/dies?


brass from http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com

or make out of 223 brass
Link Posted: 6/4/2013 11:58:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2013 4:53:57 PM EDT by imtheflash]
Do they make 10 rd magazines?


ETA I got a quick response from Armscore, no they don't.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/5/2013 10:05:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2013 10:41:00 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By imtheflash:
Do they make 10 rd magazines?


ETA I got a quick response from Armscore, no they don't.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Well, depending on the magazine, their hi cap 9mm, if it's a full sized frame, it MIGHT be compatible w/ the Para Ordance hi cap 9mm 10 round mag. And I know Para makes a 10 round mag for the hi cap frames.

Would love to find someone to make me a barrel for my Para Ordanace LDA 9mm/38 Super hi cap.....I have 38 Super mags that hold 20 rounds.....


edit- Mag....looks like the aftermarket McGar 38 Super mags I have.....so that would mean a 10 round 9mm mag for the hi cap Para "should" work....


Link Posted: 6/6/2013 4:44:58 AM EDT
I'll look in to it, but since CT just passed a 10 round limit on mags, I'm not sure I can even order the firearm if it comes with a +10 rd mag.
Link Posted: 6/6/2013 10:08:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
<snip>
edit- Mag....looks like the aftermarket McGar 38 Super mags I have.....so that would mean a 10 round 9mm mag for the hi cap Para "should" work....
<snip>


since these are longer than 9mm would this even work?

i'd think one would have to get 38 super mags in 10 rd , if available
but all i have seen are hi-caps for dbl stack mags
Link Posted: 6/10/2013 9:13:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2013 9:35:44 AM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By d13s3l:
Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
<snip>
edit- Mag....looks like the aftermarket McGar 38 Super mags I have.....so that would mean a 10 round 9mm mag for the hi cap Para "should" work....
<snip>


since these are longer than 9mm would this even work?

i'd think one would have to get 38 super mags in 10 rd , if available
but all i have seen are hi-caps for dbl stack mags


Well, I have a Para Ord 10 round hi-cap frame mag... came w/ my 9mm LDA. I don't recall where I put it, but I think, before I fit the 38 Super barrel, I tried 38 Super rounds in the 10 round magazine. The lips are a little different from what I recall....but it fit.

The single stack OEM Colt 9mm mags have a spacer welded into the back of the magazine so that the rounds sit forward and those are 9 rounders . The 10 rounder I have, as I said, fit 38 Super...which, if I read right, is about the same length as the new round.

Edit- I even checked the Para Pro Shop...can't find the limited capacity 9mm 10 round mags...strange. Ya think they would be available SOMEWHERE...
Link Posted: 6/23/2013 7:27:19 PM EDT
Hi, I'm new to the board here, but is like to put in my 2 cents worth. I have been reloading the 22 tcm for about a year. I think that I have the first set of dies that Lee made.
When I contacted them they had never heard of the 22 tcm. Had to send cases and everything. I will say that my results mirror some of the other posts about velocities with
Win 296. I'm starting to experiment with blue dot. I'll keep you posted on my results.
As for fitting 38 super barrel, I had to open up the breach face on my tcm for it to feed. Also had to tune the extractor, but now she feeds all 3 rounds.
Link Posted: 6/24/2013 5:12:07 AM EDT
Armscore is coming out with a 22 TCM rifle. The rifle comes with a 5 rd mag, but the hi cap (which doesn't help me) mags will work in the rifle.

Armscore rifle
Link Posted: 6/24/2013 10:33:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2013 4:47:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By imtheflash:
Armscore is coming out with a 22 TCM rifle. The rifle comes with a 5 rd mag, but the hi cap (which doesn't help me) mags will work in the rifle.

Armscore rifle


Ya know, aside from this, Mech-tech Systems should make a CCU in that cal...but that's a whole lot of priority stuff....permission, etc.

Link Posted: 7/30/2013 3:45:34 AM EDT
I went to buy one of the RIA 1911's but the supply had all but dried up so I contacted Ron Reed and got dies and reamer for his 22 Reed Express. The RE is about .110" shorter than the TCM but still getting almost 3000 fps from the DI AR carbine 1:7 twist, 2650 from the BB AR 1:12 twist, and 1750 from converted Llama MiniMax 9.





I found my Quick Load under estimated all load data by a few hundred fps (therefore pressure) so be careful as pressures build quickly. This is very evident int he blow back version as massive buffers were made for it yet the Llama barely cycles.

frozenny, Interesting post on Lil Gun, I was using it in the 22 RE, but the comment on heat matches some data I am getting on the BB version.

Even with Tokarev mags, bullet selection is limited but stock mags will function with the longer ones. Now that dies and reamers are becoming more available for the TCM, I think it will be a much more popular round especially with the rifle coming out.
Link Posted: 8/21/2013 2:37:47 PM EDT
Question: Why not just get the FiveseveN? What advantage does this chambering offer, if any? (other than allowing you an excuse to get another 1911, which admittedly, is a decent reason)
Link Posted: 8/21/2013 4:36:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tReznr:
Can you make 22 TCM brass out of .223 in the same way that one makes 300 Blackout brass?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/tReznr/Arfcom/Whisper-brass.jpg
View Quote

My guess would be yes, with the necks having to be reamed as the body of the parent case is going to be thicker that low on the body.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 11:07:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FirstFreedom:
Question: Why not just get the FiveseveN? What advantage does this chambering offer, if any? (other than allowing you an excuse to get another 1911, which admittedly, is a decent reason)
View Quote


For me, I never liked the safety location on my FiveseveN. Buying this gun in the .22 TCM/9mm combo gave me 5.7 ballistics in a 1911 platform, and gave me a backup wide-body 1911 in case my Para P18 breaks at a match.
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