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Altair
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Posted: 9/4/2012 10:48:52 AM
[Last Edit: 9/4/2012 10:48:52 AM by Zhukov]
Does anyone here load .223 ammo to subsonic velocities? I know it can be done but my search didn't turn up anything.

A friend's father is asking about it and I have no first hand experience. I know they won't cycle the action of an AR but he wants to play around with the idea. I tried to talk him into a 300BLK and a .30cal suppressor but no dice so far.
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Altair
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Posted: 9/4/2012 9:11:02 AM
Originally Posted By infantry556:
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.


I think that is what he's looking for.

With only 4.0gr of powder does that adequately fill the case? I didn't think even Trail Boss would be that bulky. I know it is used for .308 Win subsonic loads.
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Posted: 9/4/2012 9:14:24 AM
Pointless, IMHO. I experimented with it for a while, using heavy bullets and trailboss. Ended up being more shitting around than it was worth. subsonic in that small of a caliber/weight isn't worth it IMHO.
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Altair
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Posted: 9/4/2012 9:22:16 AM
Originally Posted By NAM:
Pointless, IMHO. I experimented with it for a while, using heavy bullets and trailboss. Ended up being more shitting around than it was worth. subsonic in that small of a caliber/weight isn't worth it IMHO.


Agreed, and I made that argument, but he's still interested so I told him I'd see what relevant data was available.

What bullet weights and charges of trail boss were you using?
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Posted: 9/4/2012 10:29:07 AM
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Pointless, IMHO. I experimented with it for a while, using heavy bullets and trailboss. Ended up being more shitting around than it was worth. subsonic in that small of a caliber/weight isn't worth it IMHO.


Agreed, and I made that argument, but he's still interested so I told him I'd see what relevant data was available.

What bullet weights and charges of trail boss were you using?


I'd have to see if i still have the data somewhere. This was about 5 years ago.
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infantry556
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Posted: 9/3/2012 5:28:00 PM
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.
AirRaceFan
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Posted: 9/3/2012 4:48:32 PM
I looked on loaddata.com which has a lot of stuff, but I couldn't find anything for .223/5.56 that was subsonic.
TeeRex
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Posted: 9/4/2012 10:58:09 AM
Hodgdon's website has loads for titegroup, clays, and trail boss. They only have loads for 55 grain bullets.
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Posted: 9/4/2012 5:50:52 PM
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By infantry556:
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.


I think that is what he's looking for.

With only 4.0gr of powder does that adequately fill the case? I didn't think even Trail Boss would be that bulky. I know it is used for .308 Win subsonic loads.


I'd like an answer to this as well. Doesn't that go against the whole under charge issue?
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Posted: 9/4/2012 5:58:58 PM
Originally Posted By jgieske:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By infantry556:
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.


I think that is what he's looking for.

With only 4.0gr of powder does that adequately fill the case? I didn't think even Trail Boss would be that bulky. I know it is used for .308 Win subsonic loads.


I'd like an answer to this as well. Doesn't that go against the whole under charge issue?


Not really. If you are trully interested, there is a metric ****-ton of info on sub-sonic rifle loads with ultra-fast pistol powder (like TrailBoss or Clays) here:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
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Posted: 9/4/2012 6:00:25 PM
I have also used the trailboss loads from the Hodgdon website and it will not come close to cycling the action on my AR. I don't know if anyone on here has experimented with loads that may cycle the action in 223.

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Posted: 9/4/2012 6:03:14 PM
[Last Edit: 9/4/2012 6:46:02 PM by Rich_V]
Originally Posted By jgieske:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By infantry556:
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.


I think that is what he's looking for.

With only 4.0gr of powder does that adequately fill the case? I didn't think even Trail Boss would be that bulky. I know it is used for .308 Win subsonic loads.


I'd like an answer to this as well. Doesn't that go against the whole under charge issue?


Trail boss will not fill a rifle case when loading for subsonic velocity - 223, 308 all will be 1/2 to 2/3 full at most. They do work very well and can give good accuracy.

In my experience I find the heavier bullets are more consistent in velocity and accuracy.
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Posted: 9/4/2012 6:16:18 PM
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By jgieske:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By infantry556:
I've used +/- 4.0 gr. IMR Trailboss with Hornady 55 gr. soft points out of a 10.5" LMT upper. As far as ballistics go, it's about the same as a heavy .22LR, but it is nice to have a few loaded up in case you need to make a quiet shot on something.


I think that is what he's looking for.

With only 4.0gr of powder does that adequately fill the case? I didn't think even Trail Boss would be that bulky. I know it is used for .308 Win subsonic loads.


I'd like an answer to this as well. Doesn't that go against the whole under charge issue?


Trail boss will not fill a rifle case when loading for subsonic velocity - 223, 308 all will be 1/2 to 2/3 full at most. They do work very well and can give good accuracy.

I my experience I find the heavier bullets are more consistent in velocity and accuracy.


Interdasting. Sounds like something I may have to look into.
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Posted: 9/4/2012 8:24:57 PM
Here is the link to the Hodgdon site where they tell you how to use TrailBoss for reduced loads.


You can use Trailboss for reduced loads in nearly any bottlenecked case. You can probably find a subsonic load in there.


This should be in a sticky somewhere....
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Posted: 9/4/2012 10:03:06 PM
Originally Posted By Altair:
Does anyone here load .223 ammo to subsonic velocities? I know it can be done but my search didn't turn up anything.

A friend's father is asking about it and I have no first hand experience. I know they won't cycle the action of an AR but he wants to play around with the idea. I tried to talk him into a 300BLK and a .30cal suppressor but no dice so far.


just another idea to throw out here but why dont he get a 10/22 rifle and a 22 can and shoot subsonic 22lr? thats all your creating here. a subsonic .223 is similar bullet weight at similar velocities. except with 22lr you dont have all of the headaches involved with creating a subsonic .223. and the 22lr will cycle its action with a can. just my 2 cents.
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Posted: 9/4/2012 10:17:39 PM
I have a 10/22 with action buffer that I shoot Aguila subsonic 60 grain bullets that are barely subsonic.
It goes..
Clack
....
.....
.......
..........
Thump

Even at a measly 75 yards. I would never bother with a 5.56 rifle in subsonic as it will have no energy behind it. At all.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2506135961/aguila-sss-sniper-subsonic-ammunition-22-long-rifle-60-grain-lead-round-nose
Altair
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Posted: 9/4/2012 11:52:29 PM
Originally Posted By F_Double_O:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Does anyone here load .223 ammo to subsonic velocities? I know it can be done but my search didn't turn up anything.

A friend's father is asking about it and I have no first hand experience. I know they won't cycle the action of an AR but he wants to play around with the idea. I tried to talk him into a 300BLK and a .30cal suppressor but no dice so far.


just another idea to throw out here but why dont he get a 10/22 rifle and a 22 can and shoot subsonic 22lr? thats all your creating here. a subsonic .223 is similar bullet weight at similar velocities. except with 22lr you dont have all of the headaches involved with creating a subsonic .223. and the 22lr will cycle its action with a can. just my 2 cents.


He already has a .22LR can. I've discussed this with him and the only answer I get is he wants to try it, which I suppose is enough of a reason.

Personally, I'm happy with my .22LR suppressor and my .308 Suppressor and see no need to mess with subsonic .223 that won't cycle my AR's, but as I said he is interested and I told him I'd see what I could find.
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Posted: 9/5/2012 12:31:01 PM
[Last Edit: 9/5/2012 12:32:47 PM by AeroE]
There's some subsonic data at the Accurate Reloading web site with the .223 Rem data. That's one of the two or three sources that I trust.

I don't think I would fiddle with Trail Boss in a .223 Rem case due to the grain size. I have a bottle and I haven't tried it. I would charge with a dipper and funnel.

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Posted: 9/5/2012 5:09:38 PM

Originally Posted By NAM:
Pointless, IMHO. I experimented with it for a while, using heavy bullets and trailboss. Ended up being more shitting around than it was worth. subsonic in that small of a caliber/weight isn't worth it IMHO.

This has been my experience too. Plus Trailboss doesn't meter that well.
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Posted: 9/5/2012 7:58:05 PM
[Last Edit: 9/5/2012 7:58:20 PM by Assaulter]
I tried some with 3.2 of Titegroup. It was fun for a few shots, but the novelty wears off quickly.

That was with a 55 grain Hornady.
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Posted: 9/5/2012 8:11:05 PM
[Last Edit: 9/5/2012 8:12:06 PM by Motor1]
I haven't messed with the .223 and sub-sonics yet. If I had one that was bolt action of single shot I may.

You don't have to worry about small charge weights of fast burning "pistol" powder in rifle cases. The worst thing that can happen is the bullet won't exit the barrel. NOTE: ""FAST BURNING PISTOL POWDER"". ""NOT"" magnum pistol powders like H110 or Win296 which have warnings against reducing charges.

Posted for reference only:
My favorite sub-sonic rifle load is a cast 160gr Lee TL bullet at 1075 f/s.
The caliber is 7.62x54R (Mosin Nagant)
The powder charge is 6 grains of Bullseye.
I've fired hundreds of these without even a hiccup.
The possibility of a double or even triple charging is something that has to be monitored but ignition has been 100% and no fillers are used.
I have similar loads for .308 Win. 30-30 and a few others. But in the Mosin Nagant it's great. You get to shoot your milsurp all you want and don't have to worry about burning it out or destroying your shoulder.


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Posted: 9/5/2012 10:57:17 PM

Originally Posted By Altair:
Does anyone here load .223 ammo to subsonic velocities? I know it can be done but my search didn't turn up anything.

A friend's father is asking about it and I have no first hand experience. I know they won't cycle the action of an AR but he wants to play around with the idea. I tried to talk him into a 300BLK and a .30cal suppressor but no dice so far.

I don't load subsonic 223, but just wanted to welcome you over here.

I read and enjoy your post in the AR Variants Forum. The 25-223 thread is one of my favorites.

If I was going to load 223 subsonic, I would try the loads at Hodgdon's website.

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Altair
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Posted: 9/7/2012 2:53:05 PM
Originally Posted By dryflash3:

Originally Posted By Altair:
Does anyone here load .223 ammo to subsonic velocities? I know it can be done but my search didn't turn up anything.

A friend's father is asking about it and I have no first hand experience. I know they won't cycle the action of an AR but he wants to play around with the idea. I tried to talk him into a 300BLK and a .30cal suppressor but no dice so far.

I don't load subsonic 223, but just wanted to welcome you over here.

I read and enjoy your post in the AR Variants Forum. The 25-223 thread is one of my favorites.

If I was going to load 223 subsonic, I would try the loads at Hodgdon's website.



I've posted a few questions here in the last few years and read quite a bit. I'm still relatively new to reloading so I have more to learn than I have to contribute.

Thanks for the welcome.
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Posted: 9/7/2012 3:37:46 PM
5.0 gr of trailboss with a 60 gr sp bullet, cci450 primer, and fc brass. Gun was a 16" mid length. Crono'd at 1,000 fps ish

4.0 gave me a squib right at the end of the barrel

It was fun to do when I first got the suppressor but now I stick with sub 308 stuff. The sub sonic 223 was quite with the can but really a pain haveing to cyle the action of an A.R. every time. Now if I could find some 100 grn bullets and make that ammo that cyles that would be fun.
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Posted: 9/8/2012 2:08:18 PM
I am experimenting with this right now. 20" Remington 700, 1/9 twist.
All bullets have been stable for me, even out of the 1/9 barrel.
Using Trail Boss, CCI 400, IMI brass, and 62gr M855 bullets.

4.0 gr TB = 750 +/- 75 fps

4.5gr TB = 875 +/- 50 fps

4.7gr TB = 1000 +/- 25 fps

5.0gr TB = 1050 +/-25 fps

But on the bright side the bullet at 1000fps almost has enough to punch through a 1/4" free standing aluminum plate.


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