Site Notices
9/2/2014 3:43:50 PM
9/2/2014 1:00:39 PM
Author
Message
Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 841
Feedback: 100% (16)
Posted: 10/16/2011 1:30:20 PM
Got 1lb of Varget to load .223, the label on Varget gives a load plan of 27.5 grains (max load) under a 55 grain bullet. Hornady load shows Varget to have a max load of about two grains less than that with a 55 gain bullet.

Is there more than one Varget out there? I know there was a notice put about some powders being closely labelled but they were different (think it was 4895 vs IMR 4895).

I know to start on the low end of the scale and work up, but the difference between the two recipes has given me pause. I don't have my book in front of me now, but I think for 2600FPS Hornady says to use 23.5 grains. I just want to make sure I am using the right powder for my first load.
Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
ANIMUS
Offline
Posts: 4891
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 1:47:29 PM
The manuals vary. Start low and work up accordingly. I've noticed some Hornady recipes have lower max charges than other manuals with the same powder.
FightingMajor
Offline
Posts: 104
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 1:50:42 PM
Welcome to reloading. Different bullets types of the same weight could have different max loads. Different rifles could too. I would use the Hodgdon data but like you said, work up from a start load. Look for signs of pressure as you go.
BIGGDAWG
Member
Offline
Posts: 494
Feedback: 100% (38)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 1:51:43 PM
every gun is diff. but our 5.56's start showing pressure signs at 26.9gn of varget under 55gn hornady sp.

always take max load and subtract 10% for your starting load and work your way up.
Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 844
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 2:20:49 PM
[Last Edit: 10/16/2011 3:06:17 PM by Vegitan]
Thank you, just wanted to make sure I am reading everything correctly. I don't have a local mentor so all my questions end up getting posted to you guys.

Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
RegionRat
Member
Offline
Posts: 417
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 2:37:11 PM
Which 55 gr are you going to use? There are small differences in results due to bearing area formed by the differences in projectile profiles.
For example, VLD designs run different for the same weight than typical ogive profile of a Seirra.
The 25 to 27 range sounds right for a Sierra 55, but could run slightly different if there is more or less pressure formed due to differences in profile.
I would lean more towards that 25 end to start and work up if you are not sure.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

David8989
Offline
Posts: 128
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 3:53:07 PM
Like others have said most loading manuals vary with there man / max loads. Something I do is take the gun i'm loading for into account. Most loading books will state what components were tested in what kind of gun. So if i'm loading for a 16" AR and the loads in my manual were tested in a 26" universal reciever I tend to pick the higher of the minimum loads because of the lost velocity I will have with the barrel length difference, YMMV.
SMJayman
Offline
Posts: 242
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 7:42:06 PM
With Varget you'll be doing a compressed load before you reach max, if your situation is similar to the bullets I've used with Varget. I also found that once I was compressing the powder my accuracy fell off noticeably. Start low and work up. My experience with Varget has been favorable in terms of accuracy and repeatability.
dryflash3
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic
Offline
Posts: 15110
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 10:28:57 PM
Reloading manuals will vary with their data.

It's best to look to at least 3 sources and take an average. Then work up a load from the average start charge.

If you only have one manual, it would be a good thing to get another.

I recommend Lyman 49.

Then also check on line data for the 3rd source.

Links to the powder makers sites are up in Links.

Keep asking, we will help.
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.

Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.


CCW
Member
Offline
Posts: 5652
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/16/2011 11:31:35 PM
Originally Posted By Vegitan:
Got 1lb of Varget to load .223, the label on Varget gives a load plan of 27.5 grains (max load) under a 55 grain bullet. Hornady load shows Varget to have a max load of about two grains less than that with a 55 gain bullet.

Is there more than one Varget out there? I know there was a notice put about some powders being closely labelled but they were different (think it was 4895 vs IMR 4895).

I know to start on the low end of the scale and work up, but the difference between the two recipes has given me pause. I don't have my book in front of me now, but I think for 2600FPS Hornady says to use 23.5 grains. I just want to make sure I am using the right powder for my first load.


Only one Varget out there. It is imported from Australia [ADI AR2208] and relabled by Hodgdon.

The 4895 issue is that there is Hodgdon H4895 and IMR 4895. Those two are close in performance but the Hodgdon H4895 is a little more energetic.

"The flames of liberty kindled on July 1776 have spread over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism." - Thomas Jefferson
Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 848
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 10:49:49 AM
Originally Posted By RegionRat:
Which 55 gr are you going to use? There are small differences in results due to bearing area formed by the differences in projectile profiles.
For example, VLD designs run different for the same weight than typical ogive profile of a Seirra.
The 25 to 27 range sounds right for a Sierra 55, but could run slightly different if there is more or less pressure formed due to differences in profile.
I would lean more towards that 25 end to start and work up if you are not sure.

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf



Picked up 250 of these.
Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 849
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 10:54:23 AM
Will see if I can pick up another manual tonight. These will be shot out of a 16 inch Bushmaster carbine upper.
Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
Still_learning
Offline
Posts: 651
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 12:01:42 PM
I may be incorrect on this, in which case I am sure you guys will set me straight, but I thought Varget was to be used for heavier bullets and longer barrels. For example, it is typically used with 70 to 80 gr bullets in 20" service rifle barrels (or longer).

I'm not saying it won't work (it will), I'm just asking that you consider whether you picked the right powder for the light bullet and very short barrel you plan to use.

Why did you buy just one pound? Is this just for load development? Why go through the trouble to develop a load when you only plan to use one pound of powder? If the pound is only for load development, then you know you need to use a range of powder charges to determine which is best. So, you can tell I am a little bit confused about where you are going with this.

One way to deal with your original question is this. Fill a resized case with powder untill it reaches where the base of the bullet will be when seated to your intended OAL. This will determine the approximate powder charge your case can hold without being compressed. The reason I suggest this, as a test,... a reality check,... is that I don't think you can get 27.5 gr of Varget in a case and still seat the bullet to the intended depth.

Develop your own load. Start low, not high. Work your way up. Be safe!

I hope this helps.
Aggie_Gunner
Evil Oil Executive
Offline
Posts: 5104
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 12:03:19 PM
To me it is kind of a moot point. 27.5 grains of Varget is more than I can get in a .223 case, even with a 6" drop tube.

The shit I read in some load manuals makes me wonder if they just pull the data out of their ass... ESPECIALLY Hornady.

Try using published data for a 130gr Barnes TTSX in .308. Most of the MINIMUM loads I've seen out there in manuals, especially with extruded powders, overflow the case.

For Varget, my old standby with 55gr was 26.5 gr. This was a "Captain Crunch" load. Good accuracy, marginal velocity. I use TAC for 55 grain now.

- AG
I have a compulsion for firearms, martial arts, and explosives; other than that I'm pretty non-violent...

Smart as a horse, and hung like Einstein...
Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 852
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 2:15:24 PM
Originally Posted By Still_learning:
I may be incorrect on this, in which case I am sure you guys will set me straight, but I thought Varget was to be used for heavier bullets and longer barrels. For example, it is typically used with 70 to 80 gr bullets in 20" service rifle barrels (or longer).

I'm not saying it won't work (it will), I'm just asking that you consider whether you picked the right powder for the light bullet and very short barrel you plan to use.

Why did you buy just one pound? Is this just for load development? Why go through the trouble to develop a load when you only plan to use one pound of powder? If the pound is only for load development, then you know you need to use a range of powder charges to determine which is best. So, you can tell I am a little bit confused about where you are going with this.

One way to deal with your original question is this. Fill a resized case with powder untill it reaches where the base of the bullet will be when seated to your intended OAL. This will determine the approximate powder charge your case can hold without being compressed. The reason I suggest this, as a test,... a reality check,... is that I don't think you can get 27.5 gr of Varget in a case and still seat the bullet to the intended depth.

Develop your own load. Start low, not high. Work your way up. Be safe!

I hope this helps.


This will be my first reload so didn't want to get 5lb jug if the load performed poorly. Plus wanted a chance to experiment with different powders and I had spent a good chunk of money on the press and other items.

Not trying to get max load, this will be mostly plinking ammo and the furthest I can safely shoot on the FIL farm is about 300meters. My concern was making sure I had indeed grabbed the correct powder. The max reloading data on the jug and the reloading manual were different so I wanted to verify before I started making loads.
Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
Oldfatguy
Offline
Posts: 405
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 5:45:17 PM
Sierra lists Varget for their 55 grn bullets with a max load of 27.2grn. As has already been noted, that would be a very compressed load.

They list several more powders in addition to Varget. RE-7 and H335 are two of several.

Your 1 pound is a good place to start so enjoy working up an accurate load and be safe.

OFG
newcalshooter
Offline
Posts: 47
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 5:49:28 PM
I just started using Varget in my mini 14 with 55 gr fmj 26.2 grains at 2.245" and a standard SR primers i get 2800 fps, very consistant out of my mini, much more than X-terminator loads.
USMC6337
Member
Offline
Posts: 532
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 6:56:46 PM
After trying Varget, pick up a pound of IMR 8208 XBR. I'm really starting to like this powder, especially how smoothly and consistently it meters.
azmp5
Offline
Posts: 229
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 8:33:29 PM
* not to hi-jack this thread, but i have the same question.. kind of. I am new to reloading so plz forgive me. Anywho, Im loading .223 with a 55 gr FMJBT bullet. I load up Vargant to 25.1 (i looked in my hornady and lyman manual) which is the min amount (atleast in the lyman). ok, no problem. even though it seems like its alot in there (powder is up to the point to right before where the case starts to turn into the neck. so for sh*ts and giggles, i wanted to see how much the max load looked like. so i looked in my Lymans again, it says 27.2. when i do that, its only a few mm's from being completely full, there would be NO way to even seat a bullet in there let alone id thing that would make the round explode. Am i missing something?
dryflash3
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic
Offline
Posts: 15121
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/17/2011 11:49:22 PM


With a slow burning powder like Varget, you need a drop tube on your powder funnel. Mine came from Midway in a set.

It packs the powder in tighter and more will fit into the case.

For ease of loading 55 gr FMJBT's get some Tac.

It's a ball powder that measures easy (unlike Varget) and no drop tube is needed.



Tac and 55 gr FMJBT's.
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.

Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.


Vegitan
NRA Tea Party Insurrecti­onist Extremist
Military
Offline
Posts: 854
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/18/2011 10:59:19 AM
Bad night doing my first reloads. After lots of adjustments and trial runs to get the tool head set up, started to make my first batches. This is all on once fired brass with various headstamps.

Biggest issue I had was varience in OAL up to .01 differences. The lock nut is on very tight but I would get lengths anywhere from 2.246 to 2.257.

I am running LEE 3 die set with seperate factory crimp. I was taking my time making the rounds making sure to check each station.


I know I will need to either break the rounds back down or try to press the rounds back further to meet the OAL. However, I can't account for the varience in lengths...ideas?
Why isn't the US Constitution being taught in high school...Why?
CCW
Member
Offline
Posts: 5654
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/18/2011 1:11:39 PM
Originally Posted By Vegitan:
Bad night doing my first reloads. After lots of adjustments and trial runs to get the tool head set up, started to make my first batches. This is all on once fired brass with various headstamps.

Biggest issue I had was varience in OAL up to .01 differences. The lock nut is on very tight but I would get lengths anywhere from 2.246 to 2.257.

I am running LEE 3 die set with seperate factory crimp. I was taking my time making the rounds making sure to check each station.


I know I will need to either break the rounds back down or try to press the rounds back further to meet the OAL. However, I can't account for the varience in lengths...ideas?


That is not so big an issue with 55 gn FMJBT. The freebore or "jump-to-land" for 55 FMJBT in a 5.56 chamber can be .100 to .140 inches. My COALs for that round run from 2.19 to 2.22 inches depending on which bullet vendor is used. I think the Hornady 55 gn FMJBT wc runs a little shorter than the Lake City pulls. You want to have sufficient portion of the bullet inside the neck to control neck tension and dimensional stability. The rule of thumb is one caliber diameter depth or more, if possible.
"The flames of liberty kindled on July 1776 have spread over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism." - Thomas Jefferson
Ballistic308
Offline
Posts: 24
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/18/2011 3:05:22 PM
[Last Edit: 10/18/2011 3:05:58 PM by Ballistic308]
Originally Posted By Vegitan:
Bad night doing my first reloads. After lots of adjustments and trial runs to get the tool head set up, started to make my first batches. This is all on once fired brass with various headstamps.

Biggest issue I had was varience in OAL up to .01 differences. The lock nut is on very tight but I would get lengths anywhere from 2.246 to 2.257.

I am running LEE 3 die set with seperate factory crimp. I was taking my time making the rounds making sure to check each station.


I know I will need to either break the rounds back down or try to press the rounds back further to meet the OAL. However, I can't account for the varience in lengths...ideas?


This is going to be your biggest headache...not so mucht the once fired, but mixed headstamps. You should sort the brass by headstamps. The different manufacturers will have different case capacities which most likely will cause accuracy issues and worst case is you can over charge a low capacity case.