Every update and order placed has had a packing slip or invoice. What you see is what I got. No part number. I wouldn't be surprised what when you call tech support will know the part number. I burned their phones up for a couple of weeks.

Jodie Davies is the only name that stands out. I usually keep notes on a dry erase board. Her name is still on it.

[email protected].

I'd just call and ask for tech support. If there's questions direct to this thread. I did.

so what is that shims thickness?

.010.

Currently press is shimmed .005 and I'm happy with a .003 variance. XL650 has .003++ varinace.

But, in the interest of seeing this through to conclusion, press is getting new shim.




I'm working on cure for XL650 too. That's another thread and a whole different set of varaibles.

This is how thick Hornady's sub plate is. I'm thinkin if we're gonna see flex outta this we might take it down to the shop, chuck it in a vise, clamp a set of vise grips to it and throw a two foot cheater bar on it and then maybe we'll see some "flex".


What's going on isn't "flex" it's "rock".
So what has to happen is set screws have to be raised higher into ram insets in order to draw sub plate down to ram snug. (OR) Since the hole are there and we have to close the gap between ram and sub plate. We're left with no choice but to shim. Not sure how many different ways I can phrase a sentence to deliver the same message. Those experiencing oal variations have two choices. Accept and load on or shim.

Hornady's .010 shim delivered same results as .005 shim. Variations of .003 and below using Lee FCD. So FCD haters, that ain't the issue.

New shim installed. Notice two hex keys used. One is dropped down spent primer hole to secure shell plate. You know. The one that allegedly "flexes" too.
I then take a crescent wrench to leverage Allen used to secure shell plate to ram, applying enough pressure to actually "flex" the Allen hex key wrench.
I B Thinkin that's pretty snug.

Even with shim added. LOOK WHERE CASE HEAD RESTS. Sits square on sub plate, don't it ? So oal variations can have nothing to do with shell plate, eh ?

Ok, ok, so lookie here. See how shell plate rests on sub plate ? I can barely fit a .010 feeler gage between sub plate and shell plate.
Hhhmmm....wonder where that number came from ?? Doesn't matter. Case head STILL rests on sub plate. Using .001 feeler gage between brass case head and sub plate "lifts" brass case. So this confirms case head contact to sub plate....... "Hello Houston".




Questions ??

Have you made up a batch of 9mm using the shim that Hornady provided? Did it improve the OAL issue vs your previous test? What shim works better, .005 or .010?

Thanks!

Home made 4 point .005 works just as good as Hornady's .010.

Loaded two hundred 124 grain Ranier RN this morning, here's a random sampling from 6 cartridges.

1.134
1.136
1.134
1.136
1.134
1.134

My stroke is consistent, cyclic rate is around 300 an hour so my stroke is a slow stroke too. Makes a difference in OAL. Not that this has anything to do with problems associated in this OP. It's note worthy.

One other note worthy comment. Remember the OP when I first got this press and was tuning and setting it up to run ?? Must have had 20 hours into it. Most of that 20 was scratching my head over this issue. There's just not a part on this press that I'm not familiar with in a very intimate kind of way.

With the 0.010" shim, you must be putting additional stress on the side screws.

I had to replace mine recently.  I'm not sure how it happened, but some of the threading in the side hole of the subplate unit became stripped out.  As a consequence, I found that the screw on that side could no longer get enough purchase.  It would seem to engage a little, but then just spin and spin.  Not good - meant the subplate was no longer held down tight.

It did occur to me to ask Hornady for a replacement subplate, since it had worn out from normal use.  However, I didn't want to be shut down for 2 weeks while waiting for a part.  Instead, I devised the following simple and cheap homebrew solution:

1) purchase a pair of 1/2" overall length screws with the same (flat, hex keyed) head and thread pitch (sorry, can't recall the number, lost the receipt) as the originals (which are about 3/8" overall length).
2) grind off about one turn of thread from each.  Finish the cut edge so that it will smoothly engage threading in the subplate.
3) Profit!  Well, not really, but this will beef up the assembly.  The original side screws only partially engage the threading in the corresponding subplate holes.  The new screws will use all of it.

Total materials cost: under $2.

#2 is particularly important.  As-is, 1/2" screws are too long; they will hit the drive hub before being tightened all the way, and stop it from rotating.  Grinding off one turn of thread backs them off juuuuuust enough.

This method fixed another problem I had learned to live with: the side screws were backing out on their own, despite Loctite, quickly enough that I had got in the habit of tightening them every few dozen rounds.  The new screws have not started to back out after loading several hundred rounds.  I applied thread locker all the same, just to hedge my bets.

Bingo, hit that nail on the head. This was my hesitancy going from .005 to .010. Pressure put between set screws and ram.

Concerns.

1.) Stripping set screws.

2.) Wallowing top of insets on ram and creating additional slop.

Too early to know if number two will be an issue. Evidently it's not because if'in it was,  guys with shimmed APs would be having issues.


Sure would like to see pictures of your modifications.

I'll try to get photos done, but I'm not sure they'll be very exciting.

Hornady probably used the 3/8" ones as an understandable cost-saving measure.  Common part they could purchase in bulk, that was "close enough" in engaging the threads of the subplate = profit!  To fill the threads all the way would require either the modification I did, or else ordering a custom part = more cost.

Given what I discovered about how much threading the side screws (don't) engage in the subplate, I understand why Hornady applied extra-strength thread locker.  I had to change out a drive hub early in my ownership of the press, and I seem to recall use of a blowtorch (with the press removed from the bench of course!) to get the factory thread locker on the side screws to let go.  Needed to do it after the aforementioned factory service as well, had same problem.

FWIW, my LnL AP has a serial number of less than 2000.  But I think this part (how the subplate is secured) has not changed all that much over the years.

Very quick response and on a Sat.!

Well,  I called this morning.  The tech didn't know they had the shims for the sub-plate. I pointed him to this page, and he will look into it and let me know.  I'll keep you all updated with my progress.

Nothing - no one contacted me.....yet. Maybe tomorrow (after they read this thread)

Noticed dillonhelp was in house today on a Dillon thread.

Any one hear from Hornady today ?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Not a word

That's a shame, bet they're busy and in need of a friendly reminder maybe.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Reminder sent...I bet someone gets an a** eatn'

1911 Smith,  



Looking at your pictures. the one that after  "LOOK WHERE CASE HEAD RESTS. Sits square on sub plate, don't it ?". I can say mine does not.  It floats right above the sub-plate, I can add up to a .015 feeler gage between brass case head and sub plat.  



I wonder if my drive hub is out of spec now.  Looking at it apart, the drive hub is held by the bottom of the sub-plate and it has a lot of play. No mater how tight I screw the shell-plate down, I can't get it low enough so that the brass is 100% on the sub plate.  I'm having another issue where on station one, where some cases is making contact with the side of the die, causing an abrupt stop.  When looking at the press functioning it looks like the case is going in slightly crocked. And no this is not an indexing issue, the shell-plate is in the detent.    



I took off the shell-plate and manually put the case on the sub-plate and goes in correctly, I don't go all  the way up as it will get stuck, but I can tell the sub-plate and the die are in parallel.  



This happens on 9 mm with lee dies and 45ACP with RCBS dies.  That's why I don't think it the shell-plate issue.



I'm hopping the Sub-plate/RAM shim resolves this issue, but I have my doubts.  Cause no matter how far you raise the sub-plate up, it won't matter on the drive hub.  I'm about to give up on this press, and just get it sent in for replacement. It's almost like I bought lemon.

The reply that I received from Hornady:




So .010 is acceptable for Hornady

First of all, I will address the Jodi Davies issue........ I asked for head of QUALITY ASSURANCE and that's who I was told needed to hear my concern. To this date phone call hasn't been returned.

Second, hi-lighted in red are things we needed to hear.

1.) Shim was made for presses made a few years ago. Mine falls there.

2.) Hornady out right admits to sub-plate "rocking" on ram. Going on to say it's normal part of AP operation.

3.) An offer is made to return your press for remedy. Provided your out of "Hornady's specifications."

Hornady representative voices some concerns regarding shim. OK.. I think AP owners could benefit having heard his concerns.


I for one would have enjoyed handle time instead of wrench time on a husker red press. Not one of my other 3 progressive presses have the oal variation seen loading with my AP. I'm disappointed, don't know what to say and be nice. So it's best to say nothing at all.

My press is fixed. I'm happy with it's performance. I hope Hornady can resolve your issue as well.

One last thing to say.  Hornady rep.

Before press was fixed I could not feel good producing ammunition with oal swings like I was seeing. Average variation was .007 with all stations full. I've been loading straight wall pistol for a very, very long time and find it amazing the same company that makes the 208 A-Max to say.  .010 is acceptable oal variation from a press.  

Thought I would post in this thread as it has helped me. I am having trouble with OAL on .40 rounds. I posted my own post asking for info and got directed here which answered a lot of my questions. I took the press apart and found it wasn't shimmed so on Sunday I sent an email to Hornady through there web site stating my problem and linking this thread. Well today, Monday I get an email back from the tech department stating that they will put one in the mail. So lets see if it shows up and if it fixes the wild swings in my OAL. And yes I set the OAL with a full shell plate and still got wild numbers.

Same her - not a clue, so I got some .005 shim brass and did it myself.  If anyone can't get shim material, I have a bit to spare.  IM me, my email is all sorts of hosed and I am about to abandon it, move to gmail or something.  I have both brass and plastic.

I may take you up on that.  When I last talked to them, they refued to send me one. I had a list of other issues, like not entering the station straight and hitting the Die on the way up, and a list of other things.  They ended up taking it in for services.  I was surprised on what they had to do. they ened up replacing the RAM, the Frame, Toggle assembly, and my 223 shell plate. He also stated on the note he sent back with the press, that they put some extra springs and washers to take out some of the play in the links.  I'm just glad it wasn't me not knowing how to operate it right. .  



I've always been upfront that I'm new to this, but the issues I was having just didn't seam right. The funny thing is that they fixed all the issues except the AOL issue.  it's still off by .010, but I have learn to adjust from the setup run to the progressive run.  And If I want to make some ammo with tighter tolerances, I just do one round at a time. basically using it as a turret press.



 

Shim showed up in the mail today. Will get it installed and see what happens. Never mind, they are to small to fit were they need to. Looks like they fit on top of the smaller ram inside the large outer ram or under a LNL bushing. I might try them on top of the ram to see what happens but they are not the ones I wanted. They did send me 2 shims of 2 different thicknesses.

Ok I got the .005 and .010 shim. I took the .010 shim, cut it in four pieces, locktited the pieces to the sub plate and put the press back together and found no real change in the OAL variance. Hell I got better results by taking the .005 shim and putting it between the sub plate and small ram inside the larger outer ram. I tried the .010 shim in the same place but the shell plate would not turn. So I don't know what the heck to do.

Who sent the shims?  I sent some to someone, but don't remember.

Did you review 1911Smith's photos?

You sent them too me Captain. Thank you Again.   I have not had a chance to install them yet.  Family and work been keeping me busy.  I'll post back ones I try.





 

Shortly after wrapping this Op. AP was boxed up and stored. Hasn't been out since. Dillon XL650 was bolted in its place and did this all over again with it only worse.

.005 shim as I recall was plenty although mine is shimmed with .010. Shim goes under subplate, not on top. Reading back, I can see where confusion might have a place to sneak in. If you've locked shell plate against subplate somethings been placed wrong or an issue has an issue. It's been awhile. AP needs to be unpacked so we can get re-aquainted.

Young Mr. Wesley has been working XL650 issue lately on his 650. I've been in single stage mode and quite happy. Seems both progressives are calling from dark confines of closet . Have attempted piling stuff on them but that just makes the cry all the louder as Mr. Wesley is needing help and now like an old bone this is dug up again.

Big reds an easy few photos to snap and post for clarification. If you guys have anything particular you want to see speak up. Will load a quick 500 45acp on AP before storing again. Then ole blue, who's an attention whore goes back on bench for a clean redo on oal for Mr. Wesley.

Look for photos this weekend.

This post is a few day old. Not that I am worried about it any more but I did follow the OP and cut the .005 shim then used lock tight to hold them to the ram. All this did was raise the shell plate by .005. Did nothing for wild OAL's. My press seats 223 rounds spot on and if I keep the shell plate full with pistol the oal is ok. I think some of the pistol oal's have to do with cheap bullets and the seater plug pushing on the nose more then sides of bullet. So make sure this is the fix you need before wasting the time. My press is back to normal and working fine now that I know about the shell plate being full.

The issues having issues point of previous post was directed towards seating die and variance in bullets. I don't beleive every AP press has this issue. There's an easy check see. Raise ram and see of you can fit an .005 feeler gage between ram and bottom of subplate. If it fits then shim is likely needed.

Still, I would like to clean entire procedure up a bit. From identifying to solution.