Hello all,

I just got back from the range and had a major malfunction with my G21 and my reloads. Not sure what happened and looking for some advice.

I had shot maybe 65 rounds prior to the explosion.

Bit of info. These are rounds that I just completed using my new Dillon 550B and am clueless to where I went wrong. I had tested about 30 rounds before making a larger batch.

Glock is nearly new as well with maybe 500 rounds through it.

Load info as follows

Titegroup Powder
Winchester Small Pistol Primers
Loaded to 4.5 grains (unless I doubled this)
230 Grain Jacked Precision Delta round nose rounds
Case has been used maybe 6-8 times
OAL of a few samples are between 1.2 and 1.28


I was at a private club and was the only one at the facility this AM. Decent sized blood blister on strong side hand. Magazine was blown apart and the magazine release was no where to be found. Other than that the pistoll is fine. There is a a gun store on the way home that has a Glock Armor on staff and I stopped by to have it inspected.

Below are some pics of the case that was stuck in the chamber after the incident. I still have maybe 200 rounds from this batch and am obviously worried about this and where I may have gone wrong.










OK...I pulled a random 3 rounds and all 3 powdered right at 4.5. I do have a question/concern regaarding the crimp. All 3 rounds when measured had a width of .450, .451 and .450. I was having issues with too much crimp when I was setting the dies and may have backed it off a bit too much. These measure new at .452. Is my crimp way too light?

Attached photo. you really can not see much of a crimp in these after being pulled....

Good ol' glock unsupported case head syndrome. Glad you are OK.

When I used to reload I never used a bras more than 3 times if I fired the first round and no more than 4 times when the brass was bought new.  It gets old and tired like all of us.  I had the exact thing happen with my 1911 Gold Cup about 25 years ago.  Cause was determined to be brass fatigue.

erp....edited due to failure in fundamental reading skills.....

Load data?????????????

Check!

Nice to be able to see this in KaBoom threads!

How is the crimp?

Could there have been bullet setback when stripped from the magazine to the feed ramp?



Small primers?

I thought .45 acp used large primers!

G21 is a .45acp!

Yeah, check brass fired out of a factory Glock bbl.  Ass end of the case will have a noticeable bulge by the rim.
As this goes through the sizing die, it is resized and looks normal again.
Unfortunately this constant resizing of the same spot tends to weaken the case.
Over time and several reloading sessions that area gets weak enough that when you touch off a round, it becomes the path of least resistance.  So the back end of the case goes first and tries to take the rest of the gun with it.
Sounds like yours wasn't too bad.  I remember seeing a USP 45 blow up like that and a Glock 19 where a few minor parts later and the gun was up and running.

I think every .40 S&W Glock I've ever seen like that (10 ir 12) was FUBARED

How did you get small pistol primers in a 45ACP?

Sorry, They are Winchester Large Pistol primers. Small would be anoyther issue

What headstamp was on the brass out of curiosity?

Some "not toxic" ammo uses small pistol primers for some reason.  I personally will not reload it, for the simple reason that it takes a different primer setup.

Weird
Probably cheaper for them to make it that way, after retooling for the brass of course.

Note to self: Do not buy Non-toxic ammo and check range pickups for same!

You double charged.  A reload on the normal side of pressures will not blow out like that, unless the brass was seriously scraped or damaged in some way before it was reloaded.  

Double check your process again.

missed that one, i need glasses, badly, thanks....ya did say G21 and I saw G22 , but the "230 grain" shoulda been a key as well.......glad you were not more seriously injured.  





 

Double charge. I hate to say, but this is why when I went progressive I went auto index. Very little chance of double charging. If you can add a powder cop or similar station to your loading setup.

Glock, Titegroup, 550B. The perfect prelude to a blowup.

This ought to piss a lot of people off. O'Well. I find truth to be the best medicine for what ails you.

Glocks don't survive ka-booms well, your lucky case head gave out before pressure could have built in chamber or what could have happened, would look like Wingman's picture.

45acp brass used in any pistol should last a lifetime. I loose more brass to being lost than lost to cracks at case mouth, 2 to 3 maybe per year.

Titegroup is the worst powder choice in the event of double charge as it's unforgiving.

A press that doesn't auto advance such as a Dillon 550 is a double charge in the making without a vigil eye and keen sense of what's going on at every stage on your press.

I can guaran-double-tee ya this is a double charge. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If your going to insure it never happens again you need to own it.

Since I load with one I can tell you how this happened, or present a scenario or two.

Scenario 1) Primer arm failed to deliver a primer, rather than pulling arm back to load primer you might have pulled handle resulting in double charge.

Scenario 2) There was a distraction and attention was focused else where. Having forgot exactly what stage in loading progression, case mouth was presented twice for drop. It's easier done that most of us will admit too.

The cure... an eyeball in every case before seating bullet. In my case with RL450. I first check to see if there's powder in case before seating bullet and then check to insure powder was dropped before advancing press to seat bullet. You might think this to be redundant. Once in a habit these two processes happen in two quick glances as you manually index press.

You can debate this is a Glock issue until the cows come home and the rooster crows. This is a reloader issue. Plain and Simple.

I've loaded hundreds of thousands of 45acp rounds and what's pictured doesn't happen inside a 45acp case with 4.5 grains of Titegroup. In fact, I highly doubt that would have happened with 5.5 grains Titegroup with a 230 grain bullet.


P.S. eta, ie and more..... I would pull every last bullet loaded in that last batch, if'in it were me.

One more thought and observation. When I see powder in cases at station two and three BEFORE seating bullet..... The show stops right there and buttons are pulled and powder is emptied from brass. Period.

Actually, I talked to a rep at Winchester about this, because I have an almost endless supply of winchester NT casings I would like to reload. The rep said that in their testing with the NT rounds, they were unable to find a good combo for the performance with their materials.  They said that they found the small primers to actually perform better for the NT rounds??  I was actually planning on posting a question about a load work-up for these.  Winchester recommended starting the work-up slightly lower than I would with large primers, but I wanted the advice of the hive. . .

This

You used reloaded ammo in a glock 21 without getting a lone wolf barrel?

Fail

I would agree with this...  when loading with titegroup on my 550, I am extra alert to the possibility of a double charge with this combo...

I was thinking long term as in whatever whiz bang powder load coupled with a ccheaper small pistol primer.  Assuming its Winchester, they probably produce a fuckton more small primers than large (380, 9, 40, 38, 357, and now 45 as opposed to 44, 41, 45 Colt, 10mm and 45 ACP).  Technically 44, 41 and some 45Colt should be using magnum primers with a slower burning powder like 296.  So except for the real turd magnums/cowboy loads they load with large pistol and say 231...the only other large pistol use they see is 45 ACP.

If the non toxic 45 stuff is training ammo for LEO/indoor ranges, etc it probably makes more sense from a business perspective to have it in small pistol, thereby increasing small pistol primer production and reducing the cost on that end.  Its probably not so small of a run as we might think.

This is why I check twice and weigh every round.  Glad you're ok!

Titegroup is easy to doublecharge.  I ALWAYS use a powder that fills over half the case when loading on a progressive.

Doublecharge is my vote.

- AG

Just glad you ok...

I have little doubt that this was ser error with the reloading, just unsure of what I did. I have no issue blaming myself with a double charge as I can see that happening.

new press, check. Glock Check, etc, etc....

Thanks for posting.

I would guess double charge too.

Titegroup is a great powder, but it  sure won't tell you if you double charge a case.

I bought a pound a few years ago, used if for one reloading session, and put it back in the closet, where it still sits.







Even though I have been reloading for 20 years, pics like these continually instruct me not to become complacent at the reloading bench.

The question as to it being a double chanarge can be very easly answered, Just take a random  sample of cases and pull the bullets and weigh the charge. it stands a good chance that if one case was double charged more would be as well.

If you do not want or have the means to pull the rounds, first off get a pullet puller.  You can take a smample of bullets and weight them and avrage them. take  the same number of primed empty cases and avrage them then add the powder charge the bullet and case together, you will then get what an avrage loaded round should weigh Now take the rounds in question and weigh them and compare them to the avrage you got. a double charge should stand out

I'm going with setback but I'm just guessing.

First off, Glad you are okay!

Next, off send the gun into Glock after you get a RMA #.  I bet for a fee will replace your gun based upon what can be resued and not.  They seem to be good at that.

Your reloading data looks good, but your going to have to rethink your powder choice and up your vigilance to EAGLE EYE Level V. Load only when you are alone, and you are not distracted by kids, wife, Sig Other, dog, TV, IPOD, Smart Phone, etc...you need to be up to the task!  There is not a darn thing wrong with the 550, and any assertion by others is pure BS.  It takes operator error to double charge, fail to charge, etc.  You own this Kaboom!  

Pull all the bullets, case weight variances alone would preclude "weight" sorting period.

TG is a low volume and low charge weight powder, and I would say you double charged the case.

And, you can shoot jacketed or plated bullets in a stock Glock bbl all the time.  And, aftermarket bbls ie LWD are just fine for lead and moly coated bullets, although they are known to be extremely tigh chambered and may need a trip back to LWD to open them up.

Any reccomendations for a powder to replace the titegroup that loads with a larger amount? Mostly loading 9mm and 45acp.

thanks for the feedback from all. I am a former Marine and have no issues with taking my lumps when needed. I figure its a good  learning experience and thankful it wasnt worse.

1st thing will be to slow down. As I mentioned the Dillon is NEW to me so I may very well have been over anxious to crank some rounds out after moving from my Rock Chucker.

Yours & other's experiences lead me to believe the OP experienced a SET BACK rather than a double charge.  

A double charge - especially one with a fast burning, double-base powder would probably blow up the barrel rather than simply rupturing the case like that.  BTW- Titegroup is double base.  In fact, has the HIGHEST Nitro content of ANY of the current pistol powders at about 37% Nitro  (by definition, a single base powder has ZERO (0) percent Nitro).

More evidence of a set-back: OP - I bet you are using Dillon brand dies.  I LOVE Dillon presses - especially my PROGRESSIVE press - the Dillon 650.  But, the Dillon dies are built for SPEED and they do NOT re-size very far down the case, which can lead to far less case tension (i.e. in rifle terms "neck tension") than other dies.  I alway sought out dies that left a "coke bottle" shape to the rounds to avoid possible set back.  I even went so far as to buy dies from EGW company in PA - they sell an Undersized or "U" or "small base" (again - in rifle terms) die that leaves a "coke bottle" shape to the finished rounds.  Never had a set back - and I used the absolute worst, most shot-out 45 brass you can imagine.

I hope your hand heals quickly.  Until then, please save your money for an up-grade to a Dillon 650 & dies other than Dillon brand (or if you must a cheaper but progressive  Square Deal "B" - but the dies are proprietary so you have to use Dillon).

H Universal.

I use the Accurate Arms powder #5 and #7,  you can load almost every pistol caliber with those two powders except for the big bores and it meters great



 

I might, could buy into setback except we're not talking 40S&W here. We're talking about and this is important..

45acp loaded with Titegroup on a manually indexed press.



A low pressure round loaded with high nitro content powder on a manually indexed press that's susceptible to user err should user fail to index.

Going back to pull other rounds looking for double to charge to affirm a double charge or not is meaningless.

Only has to happen one time.

I've made my fair share of reloading mistakes through the years. I've always owned my mistakes the minute they happen. I've seen set back with 45acp, experienced setback with 45acp and yes I think Dillon taper crimp die sucks in a major way. Set back could have indeed happened and attributed too, but it ain't the cause of what's pictured.

Just one very opinionated and experienced 45acp reloaders take on the issue.

Now it's time to move on cause there's nothin more to see here to my way of thinkin. learn from it and move on.

My Ka-Boom. It wasn't a double charge, it wasn't even over charged. It was right on the edge. I pushed it, I owned it and know better should it happen again.



Yea, that shit hurt just like you described it to hurt. Left index finger numb for two days. 357sig isn't forgiving when filled full of IMR-4756.

Unique. Pretty hard to not notice a double charge with this powder.

power pistol is anther powder i use for full power loads and would be hard to miss a double charge with it.

1) Glad you're OK, and willing to post about it......

2) Been there, done that.....had the same thing happen 10 years ago with a Glock 21: ruptured case, blew out the mag and jammed the barrel in the slide....had to send it back to Smyrna to get it made right.....had minor damage to my right hand.

3) I was using a Dillon 550B, and I also vote for double charge, as opposed to simple brass or pistol failure.

4) A few companies are now making .45acp brass with small primers, esp. Blazer brass line of ammo, but I've also seen Fiocchi and Federal with them.....a darn nuisance, if you ask me!  

5) I'm currently loading .45acp primarily on a Hornady LNL (auto-indexing) AP progressive, and sort out the small primer brass for loading on a single stage when I've got a big enough quantity......

Best,

George

Get A KKM BARREL YOU'LL BE G2G!

I have heard the rumors on the net about Glocks having unsupported barrels and case bulging.  Without getting into that pointless debate, I will let you know that I went right to the source and called Glock with this concern.  They pointed out that their pistols are like every other in that concern, but are not rated for a +P round either.  So even if you buy factory ammo and it is +P, it will void any warranty and guarantee that they have.  This lends even more support to the overcharge theory that you may have experienced.  Another thing to check is what level of error that powder is showing when it meters through your bar.  It is also possible to be loading to a book value with a powder that isn't metering well and exceed your max load.  Glad you made it through this relatively ok.

How old is your Glock 21? It seems that Glock has been undergoing improvements with each new generation.

I reload for a Glock 23 (gasp!) and am not afraid to run full power loads. However, I use Redding's G-Rx die to remove the Glock smile from every case whether it was fired in a Glock or not. I also own Evolution Gun Works (EGW) undersized dies to be used in conjunction with the G-Rx. (G-Rx doesn't sound right, but my memory is not great). EGW's "U" dies are .001" smaller than standard and work well on their own.

Almost every picture posted of a Glock K-Boom shows a blow out at the base of the case as if the round didn't fully enter the chamber. The forcing of brass to the bottom of each case during the resizing will almost always make it fatter than normal. The above mentioned tools are the cure for this problem.

I use Power Pistol in .40 S&W as well as 9mm and it fills the cases more or less. It will work in .45 acp, but I haven't used it in that round. I do use Titegroup in .38 Special and .45acp but only for target loads. It uses very small charges (economical) but can easily be double or even triple charged.

Because very few people have reported problems with Glock's .45's you may have double charged. It's hard, after the fact. to know for sure. I suggest using your removed barrel as a chamber gage to test ammo during the reloding process. If it fits tight something has to channge.

Glad your OK, I don't load on a Dillon or even for 45 but I do load with Titegroup. It's very easy to double charge and many folks don't like it for that very reason. I've blown up my XDm do to a double charge and still use it, however I "owned" that mistake and ensure I have no distractions during my reloading sessions. If I have an indexing problem when reloading I always empty the charged cases and restart.

Titegroup Powder
Winchester Small Pistol Primers
Loaded to 4.5 grains (unless I doubled this)
230 Grain Jacked Precision Delta round nose rounds
Case has been used maybe 6-8 times
OAL of a few samples are between 1.2 and 1.28

1.28 is too long!  1.250-1.260 works good for me, 1.275 is max oal

Glock not rated for +P?  Their manual only states to use commercially manufactured ammunition in excellent condition and in the caliber of your pistol.  They say nothing about not using +P ammunition.  
 

OP - you have 200 rounds left from that batch?  
Start taking them apart, you can dump the powder into dixie paper cups or something.  Let us know if you find more double-charged ones.

55_grain

I've been loading 4.5 TG on a progressive press (Hand me down Lee 1000).  When I start with a new powder/load combo I generally make it a point to intentionally double charge a case just to put my eyes on what it looks like on the press.  I have to tell you that I like the way my gun shoots with TG, but after seeing what a double charge looks like I cannot tell you that I would for sure see it if not paying really close attention - and I am serious about putting a eyeball on every single case before seating the bullet.  I did some testing with AA#5 and I think that is probably a much safer powder from the perspective of seeing a double charge.  This is making me question whether that extra accuracy I found with the TG combo is worth it or not.  For sure I am going to go back and do a couple more intentional double charges and train myself a bit in spotting one with this load.

ETA:  Personally I find it easiest to reference with the line in the case caused by prior bullet seating with the top of the powder charge, but if your cases are too clean I'm not sure you will be able to spot the line or not.

And if you go to the Glock website and read their test firing information in the Glock Advantage section (area #14) you'll see that they test fire with "overloaded ammunition."

I've loaded thousands of rounds for my Glocks in 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 GAP at charges duplicating my carry ammo velocities(Speer Gold Dot +P's). I've never experienced any issues in function or weapon degradation.

I'm glad that your kaboom didn't result in serious injury - I visually inspect every casing before bullet seating to ensure it's not double charged - tedious, but it provides great peace of mind. FWIW.