Is this too much crimp ?? Using Lee factory crimp die.



Compression below case mouth measures .449 on .451 bullet.

I would say not I usually go .002"

Thats about what my 38 spl end up looking like and I've had great success with them so far

Looks and measures the same as the 185gr Nosler CC's I load and crimp with the FCD. Scary accurate.

I set all my LFCD to just remove the flair plus maybe .001 more.  I do not let the case mouth create a cannelure as in your photo.  IMO that is to much crimp.  The crimp on a round like the 45 acp is not used to secure the bullet, only to remove the flair.  The 45 ACP LFCD should be renamed the Lee Factory Flair Removal Die.  

If that was mine I would back it off a bit, but that's just me.

I'd be interested in knowing the thickness of the brass that bullet was in.

If the brass was .014" a .451" bullet will swage to .449" without any crimp if the carbide ring at the base is .477"

Edited to add: I've never see 45acp brass that thick.

you've loaded how many tens of thousands .45 rds and you're wondering this?

I believe it's too much.

Want me to pull a few Rainier 200gr plateds, and take pictures (and record case O.D. neck diameter before the pull, and pulled bullet crimp area diameters) to show you what I'M thinking is proper crimp?  I'll do it if someone wants me to, but don't want to waste time if nobody feels it necessary, lol.

Looks like it to me, but I don't think it will affect performance.

I just kiss the case mouth back up against the bullets when I crimp 'pistol' rounds.

My 38spl/357 revolver rounds get the roll crimp in varying amounts.

Chris

For bullets without a canelure, I try to crimp just enough to remove the belling.  

This is a round about thread that's going someplace, but not quite where you think it might.

Pictured bullet is factory Winchester Supreme Elite.

I pulled and recorded everything. It's loaded with 6.23 grains of powder. Unimportant to this thread so don't go there. Brass is of course, nickel plated Winchester and bullet was "swaged" in case from .451 to .449.

Ammunition is "factory crimped" to .449 for good reason.
1) case mouth diameter is .469 which makes it feed able.
2) .003 compression of brass encased bearing surface avoids set back much better than very little to no crimp. For those of you tempted to say your pistol doesn't suffer from set back..... Do yourself a favor, don't go there. This isn't a pistol or ammunition tuning thread.

Fits in L.E. Wilson case gage nicely.

Drops in, drops out.

Think .003 compression affects accuracy. Buy a box and get back to us.

Curious to see where this thread is really going ?

Might seem it will stray off topic as many of my posts seem too. If you follow with an open mind thread will come full circle. Up for the trip ?

Drama-llama.

I bet you're a lot of fun at parties?

Chris

Well, I do these things this way for a reason. Provoke thought.

If I just came clean with it all the time, information gets taken for granted. Some one sent an IM last week from this forum and stated.



What's posted next ties in to a lot of threads. Answers a ton of questions and by no means excuses you from doing your own work.

Heads up for AeroE and dryflash3............ you'll want to toggle this.

I know where you're going with it now...well, one route, intentional or not.

Companies need to protect themselves.  Companies need a reliable product.  Over-crimping in this situation provides both.

Accuracy?  We're talking twenty-five yards MAX.  Accuracy shouldn't come into play due to over-crimping at REAL defense ranges, and very little at 25 yards out of a pistol.  Tit for tat, it'll work as a compromise between accuracy, reliability and safety.

Father's Day, 2011.







I have to admire a guy who goes down with his ship.

Rounds used today from 25 to 30 yards on 6" plates.
1) Winchester Supreme Elite
2) Winchester White Box SD
3) 200 grain lswc, 5.2gr TG, Winchester primers and brass, oal 1.240. Light crimp, case mouth @ .471
4) 185 grain bnlswc, 3.3gr Bullseye, Winchester primers, assorted brass, oal 1.175, case mouth @ .468

# 4 was most accurate load from any distance, whether stationary or firing on the move.

P.S. Cranked Lee Factory Crimp Die almost all the way down on # 4 load..... We're still not full circle. Want more ??

I guess I'm drowning then, because isn't that factory defensive ammunition?  I believe it is, and not meant for EXTREMELY tight groups that you and I can both muster with target-type reloads at 25yds.  

They would rather you group 2.5" with their ammo at twenty-five and NOT blow up your gun resulting in you going after them for liability...rather than produce 1.5" groups with their ammo.  Risk management will show that 1" larger groups, and no possible setback is better than you losing a gunfight with a perp by taking off his ear rather than stopping him dead by opening up one of his frontal lobes.

I may be taking your response wrong, or not seeing where you're INTENDING to go with this...  So I'll pause right here.

EDIT:

Reading a little bit more into it.  You're saying that your heavy crimp of .468 didn't affect your accuracy at all, correct?  Fair enough, and yeah...we want more.

Winchester Factory load is a smoke screen,  Steve. It's proof Winchester uses a lot of crimp, sure it saves liability from set back.

You make a point I have made and it's great discussion. Also one of a bunch of points that will be made in this thread.



Explain why my undercharged, severely fcd crimped # 4 round out performed the other three rounds.



How did my 1911 even cycle the load ?

I would be curious what velocity # 4 load was, wouldn't you ?

Yep.  I'm obviously going the wrong direction here, then.
That being said, and what you said above...  I think I'm still lost LOL.

I know for a fact, a friend's father loaded 185gr LSWC with 3.0gr Bullseye  oops, shooting/talking with him today, it was 3.5gr Bullseye.  It seemed to cycle his surplus 1911 fine.  I don't remember for positive, but I believe my stock Mk IV Ser. 80 cycled it fine, too.

Velocities?  I'd say around 550-575fps, but I never put it over a chrono.  And yes, once again, it cycled fine from what I remember.

So what are we looking at?  A heavier crimp with a deeply-seated 185gr bnlswc will create higher chamber pressures (I believe I'm starting to move out of my realm even more here)?  But if so, the chamber pressure shouldn't have much effect unless we're dealing with a blowback operated pistol, correct?

Why does it cycle the slide efficiently, especially since the projectile is a light one?  Like I said, I think I'm starting to grasp here, and it's late.  I'll give up on my reasoning, and let everyone else take a shot at the situation from here on, lol.  

Fair enough, ever notice the hunger a few make for more velocity. It's become insane. Look at # 4 load velocity.


Not only is the need for speed insane. Out right claims manuals aren't needed and load work up is a pain. Absolute against the grain, madness.

Everyone needs all the resources they can afford. I will do without bullets, powder and primers to afford data.

What was that statement I heard.



Here's the chronograph dope on # 4 load.
Hi - 291 fps
Lo - 273 fps
Av - 282
ES - 18
SD - 7

Damn good ES and SD, eh ?


Guess how many hours are invested in ballistic model and spring work up ?

40 + hours and still working.

No, I'm not bullshitting.

Yes, it is worth every minute and I'm still working on spring arrangement.

Yea, a bunch of you are excited now, how was that 1911 timed you ask ??


btw: Please don't rush to your press yet to load this round. There's much more information you need first. Loading without further discussion will of course be at your own peril.

Yeah, that was my first thought... that we were being baited.

No, that's not my pursuit. However, less muzzle rise provides less recoil and allows faster follow ups. What I'm doing here isn't new. This is Bullseye, Bianchi Cup shooting 101. Stuff I've read about and learned about hanging around Green Valley\Chapman Academy. This particular load # 4 is a heavier version of a load I learned about reading the linked sites on Missouri Bullet Company's website. I just upped the charge a bit if you can believe that.

I never have enjoyed pounding the hell out of myself at the range with 850 plus 45acp velocities. I come to have fun and shoot up a bunch of bullets and run a well tuned pistol.

I liken the spring set-up and reduced loads to riding a five gated saddle bred. Nice and smooth through the gates with precision.




Any pistol having after market, reduced power springs available can be loaded with reduced power loads.

Pistols would include. 1911, BHP, Glock, Beretta, XD,  5" Tactical models.

Springs are available from Brownells and places like MidwayUSA. * Springer Precision has reduced power XD springs for tactical models only. *

Here's the end goal to this thread...

IN!!!!  Great thread 1911smith!

Steve, BTW I found out those loads that FTF'd my M&P were only crimped to .473 or .474 (or should I say "uncrimped to").  I turned the FC die down to .471.  Hopefully no more problems.  Let's shoot this week.

Ok. Time for concerns here. Stem wave. Don't know what that is ?? Lapua discusses it in their manual. It's a phenomenon.

LaPua will elude to a fact it's real.

I'm going to say it is real and a "phenomenon" I respect. Disrespect at your peril.


Use a bullet with a deep bearing surface and sink it, Then crimp the hell out of it.

Missouri Bullet Company will say their rule of thumb is to seat until case mouth is 1/32nd of an inch above case mouth.

Springs ?? How to choose reduced power springs.


Went to MidwayUSA today and picked up Wolff reduced power spring pack along with 16 and 17lb main springs.

Pictured above is Wilson Spring Caddy. Do yourselves a favor, wrap a piece of tape around each spring and label spring weight. My caddy is useless because I've mixed and matched springs so much it's become a guessing game between what's new, what's old, and what weight. It's a mess.

Wolff reduced power spring pack consists of 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 pound recoil springs.

For my load # 4,  I used the 19lb mainspring that was in 1911 and went with an 8lb recoil. Turns out that works, ok.

As with your load, you work your way down in spring weight. This isn't a work up procedure when working reduced load.



Cycled fine for the most part and had a little "gate" to cyclic rate. I like a lot of "gate" to cyclic rate.

Had hoped to make it to range tonight. Not going to make it, called to work. Next time will respring and time with 10lb recoil and 16lb main spring.

Also, next time we'll go into some detail about brass and extractors. Till then, stay safe and read up before you load up.

Yup, no malfunction problems for you at all with today's range trip.  I still believe you can lower your charge weights to below factory hardball velocities with both the 185gr LSWC's and 200gr LSWC's...your choice, though.  Spreadsheet inbound to your email shortly.





That low of velocities, and an extremely low extreme spread = impressive.  If it's repeatable, that's fabulous.  
I don't know how you manage those numbers when taking into effect the supposed erratic effect of powder burn rates (possible detonation) at low charge volume (Stem Wave, as you call it.  burn rate physics of different powder types/compositions, as I understand it as).  Not only that, but so much must be coming into play, and all at once.  

How detailed are you as far as these #4 handloads?  Yeah I know it's 45acp we're dealing with here, but did you get down and dirty as far as case cleanliness, once-fired brass, case length, primer pockets cleaned and uniformed, primer seating depth, actual hand-selected projectile weight, glass-like firearm action operation...  Any of this?

I ask this, because a cartridge with the velocities you show must be barely bucking the slide back.  you can SEE a 1911 slide returning to battery with a 12-pound spring on a standard load.  If the pistol's action is anything less than glass, it's barely locking up on a freshly fed round, and even less so on one that's external dimentions aren't precise for the chamber...and repeatable from round to round.  Talk about a precision pistol, it's GOT to be there with a 12-pound or 10-pound spring...Let alone an EIGHT-POUND recoil spring.  

Tolerance stacking combined with erratic burn, there still must be some precision/attention to detail invloved to produce that kind of consistency with those loads.  Yes, 40-hours of load developement must mean you're definitely kicking ass with attention to detail and dedication.  I am seriously impressed....or depressed since I don't have the patience or time to perform that sort of developement.  Seriously, that's the kind of dedication that's impressive, no matter how useless (not considered useless by me) that some people may consider it to be.




I'm also not one to beat the hell out of myself when it comes to practice/target shooting.  For one, I like to run minimal-recoil loads in my 4" Springfield XD Service.  A load that dribbles the brass out about eight inches to the right is good for me while "target practicing" with a non-target XD45 4".  To be honest, it's mainly because nobody offers an aftermarket light recoil spring for the XD Service, and because it's my defensive pistol.  That being said, I like the light(est) loads out of my 4" XD Service because I like to float on the edge of reliability yet still be more reliable than the guy next to me.  I like to use light loads when I go to tactical training courses, or informal plinking.  

Perhaps I'm more like you than I thought, but without the extreme motivation to actually PURSUE it, lol.  

Just today, Makintrax73 and I tested some of his loads.  He's not into high velocities, either.  He wants reliability and accuracy.  I think him and I both strive for the same.  He's hitting factory velocities (820-830) with both 200gr LSWC and 185gr LSWC using AA #5 and Titegroup out of his M&P 45 reliably, and is probably going to drop it down even further from there.  I'm trying for the same in my XD 4" Service, and have pretty much reached it with 200gr Rainer FP, 200gr Rainier TMJ, 200gr Montana Gold FP and Nosler 185 HP's with either W231, VV n310 or Clays depending.  I'm reaching 720-740fps OUT OF A 4" SPRINGFIELD XD for practice rounds, and it's 99.9% reliable at the courses I take...that's out of a 4" XD.  I'm sure I could go lower if I were strictly loading for my 1911's, but I need something that functions in both...reliably.  Hell, I have a broken 5th metacarpal on my strong hand 21-days old.  I was able to pull off six rounds of my light 45 loads without TOO much pain, lol.  I did, however, switch back to shooting support hand for the rest of the evening after those six rounds...I admit.

Perhaps I need to quit being lazy and work up a very light (yet safe) 1911-specific load?  

However, I DO like hard-hitting 45 loads (I load 45 Super for an AR45 and Springfield comped 5" XD Tactical).  I like them, but there IS something sweet about a light 45 that you can relax with at the range...I agree.  There's a place and time.  I can assure you I shoot the light loads the most.

Springs...yep!  I run aftermarket springs in ALL my guns except for the 4" XD.  Be it heavies for my CZ 83's, CZ52's, PPK/S, Ruger LCP and 45 Super XD Tactical 5", or light springs in my EAA Witness Elite Match and 1911's...I run aftermarket springs.  

I mention both light AND heavy springs.  The heavies for guns that are under-sprung for what I use them for, and the lights for the ones that I like to tune down to handle the lighter loads.  I know I have a lot to learn, but once I've started pushing the envelope on loads that I've worked up, spring changes, be it light or heavy, begin to come into play.  Your posts show that I have a lot to learn and a lot further to go so long as I proceed safely.



All that being said, I feel like I'm rambling here, LOL.
Here's a few pictures to show that I see where you're going now...to an extent.  Once again, I have a lot to learn.  



From Speer's #14

What an appropriately timed thread. I just received my Wolff reduced power springs for my 21 in the mail yesterday.

I'm running a lightish charge of 231 under a 198gr H&G 130. Was having a couple of FTF so I'm going to try a couple different springs to see what I like and what works best.

I love the light striker spring.

1911smith are you doing anything to address powder position mentioned in the article you posted other than deep seating and a tight crimp?

Yes, We will address powder position and powder burn rates. Didn't plan on, but we will address some 1911 tuning issues, brass issues, and about a hundred other issues. For those interested, we're going to learn as we go. This may well be a never-ending thread. We're waiting at present for a different load that I' m working with that fills case better, also some more 1911 parts and range time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Looking forward to your future posts...............

I've been spending a ridiculous amount of time developing the load we discussed in the other thread.  I don't have 40 hr in, but probably half that if you include research.  It's been educational, thanks in large part to you.  

The link to the Missouri site got me thinking, and I am pretty sure I know where you're going with this.  I'm going to guess the term "obturate" is going to come up at some point.  

But maybe I'm totally off base...wouldn't be the first time.

Your lights flickering, not on just yet,  but I see good things ahead for you.

Obturate was used in context of stem wave. If charge isn't enough to push bullet from barrel we have a "squibb" round. Squibbs are associated with no charge to light charge loads.

A "stem wave" or "pressure spike" is caused when powder rests below flash hole.  It's speculated by companies like Smith & Wesson and Vihta Vouri . Both companies openly speak of phenomon. I talked about it some on first page. Bullets stuck in barrel for any reason is a reflection of your attention span.

Obturate

Have been working a few things this eveningfor this project, some loads, theory and timing. Takes a while to put this stuff together because:

1) There's what you know.

2) What you think you know.

3) What you know presented in such a way,  so those who don't know will challenge what you know,  so an intellegent conversation can be discussed.

I will share insight. Powders.... Working with IMR SR 4756, Unique, Accurate # 5. Powders I am considering Vihta Vouri 3N38, Accurate #9 and Trail Boss.

eta: time spent is investment into future fun.




Pop question.

Your published data states, a 230 grain bullet using 8.7 grains of Accurate # 5 will move at  927fps.


How many fps does 1 grain of Accurate # 5 represent ?

106.3 fps/grain @ 8.7 grains.



I'll didn't check my notes, but I'm pretty sure you get fewer fps/grain when you go to a heavier charge. (at least with higher charges)



I would be willing to guess that if one were to plot fps/grain by charge weight that you would get a parabolic curve or close to one for a given cartridge, assuming all other variables are equal.



That is pure speculation on my part, but it would fit with my very limited data.
 

charge weight to pressure (and velocity) ratio isn't linear. Would likely result in 0fps externally. On the other hand, if you stuffed 20lbs behind a slug, it still wouldn't reach the speed of light

So, I'm doing more research for this thread tonite......


The level of mis-information on some very reputable, cast bullet reloading sites is absolutely maddening.


It's without a doubt no wonder why folks wonder in here so confused.

There isn't a lot of Trail Boss information out there for 45acp and even less for 185 grain.

For those of you loading with Lee disks.

3.2 gr use .76

3.4 gr use .82

3.7 gr use .88

4.1 gr use .95

4.4 gr use 1.02

4.6 gr use 1.09

My research shows 5.5 grains being max. Still need to confirm this with Hodgdons. At 4.6 grains case is 75% full. Seating a Suters Choice bullet at 1.165 definitely compacts load.

Will post chronograph results later.


If doing your own research you will find using 185 grain lead bullets, posted charge ranges being used of 3.1 to 3.8 grains BULLSEYE.

Bullseye is definitely the most popular powder used in reduced 45acp, 185 grain, 200 grain loads.

FURTHERMORE..... I have tested IMR 4756 and Unique.

A word about Unique and reduced charges................. SPOOKY. Tried 5 grains with 5 cartridges. I could hear an audible ignition and then what sounded like a build in gas (pressure) before bullet exited barrel. Best way I can describe.

I'm satisfied with ruling Unique out. If you look in Lee's manual you will find the same charge listed for both low and high. I'm guessing there's a reason for this and it's a good one.

IMR4756 is a good powder for reduced charges starting at 600 fps, will update, later.

If anyone else wants to jump in and help with reduced charge experience, please add.

By reduced charges, I'm asking for 45acp data below 700 fps.

I couldn't believe the level of Jacktardedness researching internet threads on various forums. Someone will ask for help with reduced charge data and get lots of 45 acp, 800 fps thru 950 fps responses.

You won't find me posting in other forums. One forum is enough work for me and I'm happy to do it here.

1911smith here is my light load i have worked up. shooting in my stock kimber gold match stainless

various small primer cases
winchester small primers
230gn fmj everglades bullets
4.0gn titegroup
oal 1.225

45 230gn 4.0 titegroup
1)672.1
2)685
3)685.2
4)675.7
5)673.4
6)685.8
7)679.5
8)665.3
9)685.9
10)673.7

High:685.9
Low:665.3
E.S.:20.6
Ave.:678.2
S.D.:6.8


thinking of going a little lighter and see if i can get below 600fps

Thanks a bunch for sharing. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to load your load BIGDAWG, but I would be scared (I don't use the word scared often) to try and go lower with Titegroup.

I know Titegroup isn't poaition sensitive, or not supposed to be. I'm just suggesting there are better alternatives for dipping below 600 fps.

Thanks again.

Same load and bullet weight I have some loaded at, but my OAL is 1.230 with a HAP bullet and all large primer brass was used. All crono'd right at or just below 600 when shot from a 21.

Trail Boss load data using Suters Choice 185 grain bnlswc. (Similar to Missouri Bullet Company bnlswc)

3.2 grains = 639 fps

3.4 grains = 661 fps

3.7 grains = 692 fps

4.1 grains = 731 fps

4.4 grains = 782 fps

4.6 grains = 804 fps

Barrel used, 5" Colt 1911.

I really didn't expect velocities this high. I'm working up some lower charges with a target velocity of 425fps.

On another note. The last time I ran chronograph with Bullseye charges they ran around 300 fps. Today under clear skies and 15 degrees hotter outside.

At 3.8 grains Bullseye

5 shots averaged 406 fps with ES, 24 and SD, 12.

3.8 grains Bullseye is still the load to beat. Using 11lb recoil spring and 16lb main spring

I tried out the 3.7gr Bullseye and 185gr load suggested by MBC.  Chrono still down, but it felt like at least 600fps.  Soft enough, but nothing special.  

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Federal cases I'm using.  The flash hole on them is huge.  IDK.

The softest load I've worked down was 5.5 of Blue Dot, but it wouldn't cycle with the stock mainspring and 12lb recoil.  Plus it was hilariously dirty.  Not going to cut the mustard, but it had half the recoil of the Bullseye load.  Will get the range report up on the other thread when I get two spare seconds.  I've been moving this week.

Blue Dot is a magnim powder, making it a less than desirable choice for reduced power loads. By threads end, intent is to identify good powders for reduced power and how to set up your 1911. Have you identified what main spring your running yet ??

It's kind of hard to produce the results your asking for with a 23lb or heavier main spring. Perceived recoil is bound to feel heavy at that weight.

Real reduced recoil is tuning both 1911 and cartridge. Sorry, I can't put the feel into your hand over the interwebz. If you follow along I think you will be most pleased with outcome.

Here's some more Lee disk data for Trail Boss.

2.9 grains = .66

2.6 grains = .61

2.4 grains = .57

2.2 grains = .53

Velocity

2.9 grains = 549 fps

2.6 grains = 494 fps

2.4 grains = 435 fps

2.2 grains = 397 fps

2.9 grains will cycle fine with 11lb recoil and 16 lb main

2.6 grains will barely cycle

2.4 and under no cycle.

Changed spring s to 7lb recoil and 15lb ISMI main spring. Using 2.2 grains Trail Boss with Winchester primers, I now have another problem with new main spring.

No ignition, primer strikes are too light. Going after Federal LPs this evening and load some more up at 2.2 grains.

Incidently, my 3lb trigger is now 1lb, 12oz's.

The Kimber's stock is 21lb, same with my Colt.  Just installed a Wolff 17lb main in it, gonna see if that helps.  If not, I have a 15lb on standby.

Though Blue Dot is a magnum powder, it's burn rate matches 3N38 according to VV and Alliant.  It shot accurately, it just wouldn't cycle properly.  Unfortunately it is so dirty that it isn't useable.

The Power Pistol load I tried (4.0gr) was promising, but needs to lose another tenth or two.

I've never done a thread like this one where, admittedly. I learn a lot more than before the thread. This thread is no exception. 3N38 is too slow, so is IMR 4756. Doesn't mean it can't be used. I like the idea of filling the case as much as I can. Back to Blue Dot, though it's burn rate is close the same as 3N38 it's burn characteristics are geared for magnum loads, not reduced loads.

The powder to beat is Bullseye for reduced power loads. VihtaVouri N310 is good and believe it. Titegroup is too as evidenced it's popularity on Enos's website. Titegroup has a high nitro content and when loaded in small charges like I'm loading both Bullseye and Trail Boss the concept of double ignition or stem wave clears it from my table of options. Both Bullseye and Trail Boss seem to have a safe history. Where Titegroup leaves room for question.

P.S. Trail Boss in small charge increments is dirty as all get out, the pistol I'm using has a good tune to it,  so dirt isn't an issue. As far as dirt on my hands...... well gunpowder dirt smells a hell of a lot better than pig shit dirt so I can live with it.

1911smith, I want to thank you for this thread. As you know from my thread about low power .45 loads, this thread came to my rescue. I still have some tweaking to do but the information you posted saved me many steps.



Keep up the good work and thank you.
 

Was at the local used book store today and picked up the Lee manual.  His takes on reduced loads are informative.  

Interesting math, too.  I'm gonna try to incorporate some of that into my next loading session.  Had I read that stuff earlier, I would have definitely skipped Blue Dot.

This has been a great thread.  Inspired me to get out there and expand my understanding of what's actually going on inside th chamber. Thanks.

Ok, my turn to ask questions ?

Who's actually followed this with load work of their own ??

How far have you gotten ??

How far do you want to go ??

Sure, I'm fine with doing these pieces for the sake of entertainment. There's a lot more work involved to tuning a load and pistol than we've covered. IF, I am to pursue this further it will have to be with some participation from a few of you.

It won't be easy to follow, require a whole lot of time on your part, possibly cost a few dollars in parts and tools.

I'm not asking for faith in anything I give for information. In fact you shouldn't have faith in what I say or do at all, ever.

What this will require is faith in yourself, your ability to do your own research and work.

If you screw something up, it is of course on you. I will show how I do things with my pistols and how I load for me. Input from those with more experience is of course appreciated and welcomed from those who are "lurking". Really, input from any experience level is very much appreciated.

So let's here from at least two. If we have two of you, who are following along with work of your own or would like too, chime in. I will say this, this piece will move along as fast as the participation. I won't get ahead of the slowest participant.

I've followed this thread and have been doing testing of my own.


Round two of low recoil load was today and the results are:





Gun: STI Spartan


Caliber: 45 ACP


Bullet: Hornady 185 XTP


Powder: Bullseye


Load: 4.4gn


OAL: 1.250



Edit to add Primer: WLP





Target: 40 feet


Shot string: 10 rounds





Average: 690fps


ES: 45


SD: 15.2


 

What a coincidence, I tested same load yesterday at range using assorted brass, Federal primers, Nosler 185 grain bullets and 4.4 grains bullseye.

OAL 1.210, CMOD .471

Tested load with 21lb main and 13lb recoil.

The only problem expererienced was center of target kept blowing out, regardless of distance.




It's just as important to list springs used as cartridge components. Changing spring weight combinations can either open or close your groups.


Also, if you want to round out the experience for everyone it's important to share feed information. Did every cartridge feed ?

Using the same load last test, OAL was 1.270 and would not feed. I loaded this batch to 1.250 and all fed well in Chip Mcormick 10 round power mags. Not a single hiccup.



I gained about 12fps by setting the bullet back 0.020 and ES and SD dropped to what I posted.



Gun still has stock springs. 18lb recoil spring/full length guide rod. I wanted to test this load before I started respringing the gun but I am very happy with the results so far.



Brass hit the ground at 4:00 over my right shoulder about 2-3 feet from me.





 

We've tons more to cover, but sounds as if your pistol and cartridges are tuned very well.


I want to make a statement before going any further..... 600 fps is slow enough, any thing slower and your risking failure...............


I'm fooling around in the basement with 2.1 grains Trail Boss. Everything at 400 fps has to be perfect. Grip, stance, pistol, cartridge, all has to be perfect.

When we get done with springs, we will visit OCD cartridge tuning like you can't imagine.


Still would like to see one more person involved.

I keep for springs 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, and 23 pound mainsprings  Recoil in 7,8,10,11,12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 18.5, 19, 20, and 21 pounders