I would say not I usually go .002"

Based on the photo....it looks to me to be just about right.

I set all my LFCD to just remove the flair plus maybe .001 more. I do not let the case mouth create a cannelure as in your photo. IMO that is to much crimp. The crimp on a round like the 45 acp is not used to secure the bullet, only to remove the flair. The 45 ACP LFCD should be renamed the Lee Factory Flair Removal Die.

If that was mine I would back it off a bit, but that's just me.

you've loaded how many tens of thousands .45 rds and you're wondering this?

Looks like it to me, but I don't think it will affect performance.

I just kiss the case mouth back up against the bullets when I crimp 'pistol' rounds.

My 38spl/357 revolver rounds get the roll crimp in varying amounts.

Chris

This is a round about thread that's going someplace, but not quite where you think it might.

Pictured bullet is factory Winchester Supreme Elite.

I pulled and recorded everything. It's loaded with 6.23 grains of powder. Unimportant to this thread so don't go there. Brass is of course, nickel plated Winchester and bullet was "swaged" in case from .451 to .449.

Ammunition is "factory crimped" to .449 for good reason.
1) case mouth diameter is .469 which makes it feed able.
2) .003 compression of brass encased bearing surface avoids set back much better than very little to no crimp. For those of you tempted to say your pistol doesn't suffer from set back..... Do yourself a favor, don't go there. This isn't a pistol or ammunition tuning thread.

Fits in L.E. Wilson case gage nicely.

Drops in, drops out.

Think .003 compression affects accuracy. Buy a box and get back to us.

Curious to see where this thread is really going ?

Might seem it will stray off topic as many of my posts seem too. If you follow with an open mind thread will come full circle. Up for the trip ?

Well, I do these things this way for a reason. Provoke thought.

If I just came clean with it all the time, information gets taken for granted. Some one sent an IM last week from this forum and stated.



What's posted next ties in to a lot of threads. Answers a ton of questions and by no means excuses you from doing your own work.

Heads up for AeroE and dryflash3............ you'll want to toggle this.

Father's Day, 2011.







I have to admire a guy who goes down with his ship.

Rounds used today from 25 to 30 yards on 6" plates.
1) Winchester Supreme Elite
2) Winchester White Box SD
3) 200 grain lswc, 5.2gr TG, Winchester primers and brass, oal 1.240. Light crimp, case mouth @ .471
4) 185 grain bnlswc, 3.3gr Bullseye, Winchester primers, assorted brass, oal 1.175, case mouth @ .468

# 4 was most accurate load from any distance, whether stationary or firing on the move.

P.S. Cranked Lee Factory Crimp Die almost all the way down on # 4 load..... We're still not full circle. Want more ??

Winchester Factory load is a smoke screen, Steve. It's proof Winchester uses a lot of crimp, sure it saves liability from set back.

You make a point I have made and it's great discussion. Also one of a bunch of points that will be made in this thread.



Explain why my undercharged, severely fcd crimped # 4 round out performed the other three rounds.



How did my 1911 even cycle the load ?

I would be curious what velocity # 4 load was, wouldn't you ?

Fair enough, ever notice the hunger a few make for more velocity. It's become insane. Look at # 4 load velocity.


Not only is the need for speed insane. Out right claims manuals aren't needed and load work up is a pain. Absolute against the grain, madness.

Everyone needs all the resources they can afford. I will do without bullets, powder and primers to afford data.

What was that statement I heard.



Here's the chronograph dope on # 4 load.
Hi - 291 fps
Lo - 273 fps
Av - 282
ES - 18
SD - 7

Damn good ES and SD, eh ?


Guess how many hours are invested in ballistic model and spring work up ?

40 + hours and still working.

No, I'm not bullshitting.

Yes, it is worth every minute and I'm still working on spring arrangement.

Yea, a bunch of you are excited now, how was that 1911 timed you ask ??


btw: Please don't rush to your press yet to load this round. There's much more information you need first. Loading without further discussion will of course be at your own peril.

So you are loading .45 ACP to paintball gun power and changing your guns springing to suit such loads in pursuit of accuracy?

IN!!!! Great thread 1911smith!

Steve, BTW I found out those loads that FTF'd my M&P were only crimped to .473 or .474 (or should I say "uncrimped to"). I turned the FC die down to .471. Hopefully no more problems. Let's shoot this week.

Yup, no malfunction problems for you at all with today's range trip. I still believe you can lower your charge weights to below factory hardball velocities with both the 185gr LSWC's and 200gr LSWC's...your choice, though. Spreadsheet inbound to your email shortly.





That low of velocities, and an extremely low extreme spread = impressive. If it's repeatable, that's fabulous.
I don't know how you manage those numbers when taking into effect the supposed erratic effect of powder burn rates (possible detonation) at low charge volume (Stem Wave, as you call it. burn rate physics of different powder types/compositions, as I understand it as). Not only that, but so much must be coming into play, and all at once.

How detailed are you as far as these #4 handloads? Yeah I know it's 45acp we're dealing with here, but did you get down and dirty as far as case cleanliness, once-fired brass, case length, primer pockets cleaned and uniformed, primer seating depth, actual hand-selected projectile weight, glass-like firearm action operation... Any of this?

I ask this, because a cartridge with the velocities you show must be barely bucking the slide back. you can SEE a 1911 slide returning to battery with a 12-pound spring on a standard load. If the pistol's action is anything less than glass, it's barely locking up on a freshly fed round, and even less so on one that's external dimentions aren't precise for the chamber...and repeatable from round to round. Talk about a precision pistol, it's GOT to be there with a 12-pound or 10-pound spring...Let alone an EIGHT-POUND recoil spring.

Tolerance stacking combined with erratic burn, there still must be some precision/attention to detail invloved to produce that kind of consistency with those loads. Yes, 40-hours of load developement must mean you're definitely kicking ass with attention to detail and dedication. I am seriously impressed....or depressed since I don't have the patience or time to perform that sort of developement. Seriously, that's the kind of dedication that's impressive, no matter how useless (not considered useless by me) that some people may consider it to be.




I'm also not one to beat the hell out of myself when it comes to practice/target shooting. For one, I like to run minimal-recoil loads in my 4" Springfield XD Service. A load that dribbles the brass out about eight inches to the right is good for me while "target practicing" with a non-target XD45 4". To be honest, it's mainly because nobody offers an aftermarket light recoil spring for the XD Service, and because it's my defensive pistol. That being said, I like the light(est) loads out of my 4" XD Service because I like to float on the edge of reliability yet still be more reliable than the guy next to me. I like to use light loads when I go to tactical training courses, or informal plinking.

Perhaps I'm more like you than I thought, but without the extreme motivation to actually PURSUE it, lol.

Just today, Makintrax73 and I tested some of his loads. He's not into high velocities, either. He wants reliability and accuracy. I think him and I both strive for the same. He's hitting factory velocities (820-830) with both 200gr LSWC and 185gr LSWC using AA #5 and Titegroup out of his M&P 45 reliably, and is probably going to drop it down even further from there. I'm trying for the same in my XD 4" Service, and have pretty much reached it with 200gr Rainer FP, 200gr Rainier TMJ, 200gr Montana Gold FP and Nosler 185 HP's with either W231, VV n310 or Clays depending. I'm reaching 720-740fps OUT OF A 4" SPRINGFIELD XD for practice rounds, and it's 99.9% reliable at the courses I take...that's out of a 4" XD. I'm sure I could go lower if I were strictly loading for my 1911's, but I need something that functions in both...reliably. Hell, I have a broken 5th metacarpal on my strong hand 21-days old. I was able to pull off six rounds of my light 45 loads without TOO much pain, lol. I did, however, switch back to shooting support hand for the rest of the evening after those six rounds...I admit.

Perhaps I need to quit being lazy and work up a very light (yet safe) 1911-specific load?

However, I DO like hard-hitting 45 loads (I load 45 Super for an AR45 and Springfield comped 5" XD Tactical). I like them, but there IS something sweet about a light 45 that you can relax with at the range...I agree. There's a place and time. I can assure you I shoot the light loads the most.

Springs...yep! I run aftermarket springs in ALL my guns except for the 4" XD. Be it heavies for my CZ 83's, CZ52's, PPK/S, Ruger LCP and 45 Super XD Tactical 5", or light springs in my EAA Witness Elite Match and 1911's...I run aftermarket springs.

I mention both light AND heavy springs. The heavies for guns that are under-sprung for what I use them for, and the lights for the ones that I like to tune down to handle the lighter loads. I know I have a lot to learn, but once I've started pushing the envelope on loads that I've worked up, spring changes, be it light or heavy, begin to come into play. Your posts show that I have a lot to learn and a lot further to go so long as I proceed safely.



All that being said, I feel like I'm rambling here, LOL.
Here's a few pictures to show that I see where you're going now...to an extent. Once again, I have a lot to learn.



From Speer's #14