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rogue007
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Posted: 5/19/2011 9:01:46 PM EST
I purchased a small lot of 200rds of lake city M118LR and all I have to say is..... Wow!!!


I shot the M118LR out of my Springfield Armory M1A Scout Squad with 18" barrel, also installed is a Sage EBR stock. The M118LR shot the best out of the lot except of the Black Hills 175 hollow point match, I really couldn't tell the difference in performance as far as the groupings went... I also didn't crono them, I don't have one yet.


Anyways, I love M118LR stuff but I'm having alot of trouble finding 175 FMJ bullets to load, where can I find some?


......to the meat of the topic, has anyone matched the performance of the M118LR stuff?

Does anybody have load data on loads that meet the lake city stuff?

Should I use a neck sizer or use collet style sizing?

What powder and weight?

OAL?.......(I would know but I shot it all before I measured)



Any answers is really going to help me out and I'm really itching to find out the load data on this particular round.






Buck_Naked
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Posted: 5/19/2011 9:44:46 PM EST
There are some good threads over at snipershide with regards to what the M118LR load is made up of or equivalent..

Do a Google search and you will pull some good threads...

Here is one: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1946163
BB223
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Posted: 5/19/2011 11:21:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2011 11:32:03 PM EST by BB223]
Isn't M118 a 173gr FMJ?

I could've sworn some website was selling pulled 173gr FMJs.

I'll go check around and report back.


EDIT:

Yeah I think Hi-Tek (or something similar) had the pulled 173gr FMJs awhile ago, as far as I can tell they are gone now.

However this place sells new 175gr FMJs made by PPU, but they are out of stock.

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?startrow=13&dir=278|281|727
Renn
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Posted: 5/19/2011 11:27:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By BB223:
Isn't M118 a 173gr FMJ?

I could've sworn some website was selling pulled 173gr FMJs.

I'll go check around and report back.


I thought it was a 175 SMK in the M118LR?
BB223
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Posted: 5/19/2011 11:34:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Renn:
Originally Posted By BB223:
Isn't M118 a 173gr FMJ?

I could've sworn some website was selling pulled 173gr FMJs.

I'll go check around and report back.


I thought it was a 175 SMK in the M118LR?


D'oh!

Yeah, you're right.

The OP was asking for FMJBTs so I got confused.

Maybe what he originally had was SB and not LR?
Renn
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Posted: 5/20/2011 12:12:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By rogue007:
I purchased a small lot of 200rds of lake city M118LR and all I have to say is..... Wow!!!


I shot the M118LR out of my Springfield Armory M1A Scout Squad with 18" barrel, also installed is a Sage EBR stock. The M118LR shot the best out of the lot except of the Black Hills 175 hollow point match, I really couldn't tell the difference in performance as far as the groupings went... I also didn't crono them, I don't have one yet.


Anyways, I love M118LR stuff but I'm having alot of trouble finding 175 FMJ bullets to load, where can I find some?


......to the meat of the topic, has anyone matched the performance of the M118LR stuff?

Does anybody have load data on loads that meet the lake city stuff?

Should I use a neck sizer or use collet style sizing?

What powder and weight?

OAL?.......(I would know but I shot it all before I measured)



Any answers is really going to help me out and I'm really itching to find out the load data on this particular round.








The 175 is a Sierra Match King.
DakotaFAL
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Posted: 5/20/2011 1:13:22 AM EST
Back in the day M118 Special Ball was issued as a sniper round for the M14, M21, M24 and M40A1 rifles and as a Match round for service rifle competition. It used a 173 gr FMJ - the same bullet used in .30-06 M72 Match ammunition - and represented a strict interpretation of the non expanding ammunition requirements of international law. The propellants used included both IMR 4895 and WC846 for a peak pressure of 50,000 psi and a velocity of 2640 fps, the same velocity as M72 Match. Charge weights are pointless to discuss as at that level of accuracy, the precise charge will vary with the powder lot, even with canister powders. The accuracy standard for M118 was no more than a 12" spread for a 10 shot group at 600 yards.

The potential issue with accuracy and an FMJ is the exposed base of the bullet. It is a lot harder to maintain perfect dimensions and consistency in the base of an FMJ and the dimensional accuracy and consistency is important when the bullet exits the muzzle. That led to the development of M852.

M852 was issued in addition to M118, for use in match grade M14s and civilian M1As. However it was intended only for Match use and training and was prohibited from use in combat (at least initially). This round used a 168 gr Sierra BTHP Match bullet. The hollow point design in this case was intended to allow far more precise dimensional control of the bullet and was not intended to expand. And in point of fact it does not expand and it has become a standard for sniping in police departments and in some militaries.

M118LR was, as the LR suggests, intended to push the effective range of the 7.62x51 from about 800m to 1000m. It uses a 175 gr Sierra BTHP at 2600 fps measured at 23.8m from the muzzle (a standard in all the above velocities) and consistent with a more liberal and more enlightened interpretation of non- expanding ammunition to include bullets other than FMJs, it is approved for use in combat.

DakotaFAL
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Posted: 5/20/2011 1:23:34 AM EST
Also back in the day DCM used to sell new in the box M72/M118 173 gr. FMJ projectiles. Personally, I liked them as you got about 95% of the accuracy of a 168 gr Sierra at about 35% of the cost. ($7 per hundred at the time). Given current prices of $30-35 per 100 box for Sierra match king bullets, it makes you wonder if a more affordable but still accurate 173 gr FMJ would sell well.
ma96782
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Posted: 5/20/2011 2:43:09 AM EST
You could try.............

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Sierra308Win.pdf

Aloha, Mark

Mach
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Posted: 5/20/2011 3:06:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
Back in the day M118 Special Ball was issued as a sniper round for the M14, M21, M24 and M40A1 rifles and as a Match round for service rifle competition. It used a 173 gr FMJ - the same bullet used in .30-06 M72 Match ammunition - and represented a strict interpretation of the non expanding ammunition requirements of international law. The propellants used included both IMR 4895 and WC846 for a peak pressure of 50,000 psi and a velocity of 2640 fps, the same velocity as M72 Match. Charge weights are pointless to discuss as at that level of accuracy, the precise charge will vary with the powder lot, even with canister powders. The accuracy standard for M118 was no more than a 12" spread for a 10 shot group at 600 yards.

The potential issue with accuracy and an FMJ is the exposed base of the bullet. It is a lot harder to maintain perfect dimensions and consistency in the base of an FMJ and the dimensional accuracy and consistency is important when the bullet exits the muzzle. That led to the development of M852.

M852 was issued in addition to M118, for use in match grade M14s and civilian M1As. However it was intended only for Match use and training and was prohibited from use in combat (at least initially). This round used a 168 gr Sierra BTHP Match bullet. The hollow point design in this case was intended to allow far more precise dimensional control of the bullet and was not intended to expand. And in point of fact it does not expand and it has become a standard for sniping in police departments and in some militaries.

M118LR was, as the LR suggests, intended to push the effective range of the 7.62x51 from about 800m to 1000m. It uses a 175 gr Sierra BTHP at 2600 fps measured at 23.8m from the muzzle (a standard in all the above velocities) and consistent with a more liberal and more enlightened interpretation of non- expanding ammunition to include bullets other than FMJs, it is approved for use in combat.



Thanks for the history. I have a 460 round ammo can of M852 and wondered why all the brown boxes say "For Training Use only" on them.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.”
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jasonkb4
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Posted: 5/20/2011 5:11:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
Back in the day M118 Special Ball was issued as a sniper round for the M14, M21, M24 and M40A1 rifles and as a Match round for service rifle competition. It used a 173 gr FMJ - the same bullet used in .30-06 M72 Match ammunition - and represented a strict interpretation of the non expanding ammunition requirements of international law. The propellants used included both IMR 4895 and WC846 for a peak pressure of 50,000 psi and a velocity of 2640 fps, the same velocity as M72 Match. Charge weights are pointless to discuss as at that level of accuracy, the precise charge will vary with the powder lot, even with canister powders. The accuracy standard for M118 was no more than a 12" spread for a 10 shot group at 600 yards.

The potential issue with accuracy and an FMJ is the exposed base of the bullet. It is a lot harder to maintain perfect dimensions and consistency in the base of an FMJ and the dimensional accuracy and consistency is important when the bullet exits the muzzle. That led to the development of M852.

M852 was issued in addition to M118, for use in match grade M14s and civilian M1As. However it was intended only for Match use and training and was prohibited from use in combat (at least initially). This round used a 168 gr Sierra BTHP Match bullet. The hollow point design in this case was intended to allow far more precise dimensional control of the bullet and was not intended to expand. And in point of fact it does not expand and it has become a standard for sniping in police departments and in some militaries.

M118LR was, as the LR suggests, intended to push the effective range of the 7.62x51 from about 800m to 1000m. It uses a 175 gr Sierra BTHP at 2600 fps measured at 23.8m from the muzzle (a standard in all the above velocities) and consistent with a more liberal and more enlightened interpretation of non- expanding ammunition to include bullets other than FMJs, it is approved for use in combat.



Thanks for the history. I have a 460 round ammo can of M852 and wondered why all the brown boxes say "For Training Use only" on them.

They should be red white and blue with an eagle and should say Not for Combat

jasonkb4
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Posted: 5/20/2011 5:45:18 AM EST
First off
you have to fl size for your M1A. I like a regular RCBS full length sizer but have had good results from a small base sizer. With a regular sizer I don't have as much to trim.
My best duplicate M118LR load through my M1A with a 22 inch bbl with 1/11 twist is:
LC Full length sized brass
41.2 grs Vihta N540 or 42.3gr IMR 4064
CCI 200 primer
175gr SMK or Nosler Custom Copetition(nosler's give a tad better accuracy)
With Vihta powder and Sierra bullets I get 2680-2740fps with sd's and extreme spreads in the single digits with 100yd 5 shot goups center to center less than one half inch.
With Nosler CC's I get sd's around 15 and es's at 23 with groups reaching to three fourths of an inch.
Best I've gotten through the same rifle with actual M118LR is the vihta/sierra load
7zero1
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Posted: 5/20/2011 6:29:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By jasonkb4:
Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
Back in the day M118 Special Ball was issued as a sniper round for the M14, M21, M24 and M40A1 rifles and as a Match round for service rifle competition. It used a 173 gr FMJ - the same bullet used in .30-06 M72 Match ammunition - and represented a strict interpretation of the non expanding ammunition requirements of international law. The propellants used included both IMR 4895 and WC846 for a peak pressure of 50,000 psi and a velocity of 2640 fps, the same velocity as M72 Match. Charge weights are pointless to discuss as at that level of accuracy, the precise charge will vary with the powder lot, even with canister powders. The accuracy standard for M118 was no more than a 12" spread for a 10 shot group at 600 yards.

The potential issue with accuracy and an FMJ is the exposed base of the bullet. It is a lot harder to maintain perfect dimensions and consistency in the base of an FMJ and the dimensional accuracy and consistency is important when the bullet exits the muzzle. That led to the development of M852.

M852 was issued in addition to M118, for use in match grade M14s and civilian M1As. However it was intended only for Match use and training and was prohibited from use in combat (at least initially). This round used a 168 gr Sierra BTHP Match bullet. The hollow point design in this case was intended to allow far more precise dimensional control of the bullet and was not intended to expand. And in point of fact it does not expand and it has become a standard for sniping in police departments and in some militaries.

M118LR was, as the LR suggests, intended to push the effective range of the 7.62x51 from about 800m to 1000m. It uses a 175 gr Sierra BTHP at 2600 fps measured at 23.8m from the muzzle (a standard in all the above velocities) and consistent with a more liberal and more enlightened interpretation of non- expanding ammunition to include bullets other than FMJs, it is approved for use in combat.



Thanks for the history. I have a 460 round ammo can of M852 and wondered why all the brown boxes say "For Training Use only" on them.

They should be red white and blue with an eagle and should say Not for Combat



Sir, FWIW early production M852 came in the red, white, and blue boxes you describe, but later production lots of M852 came in the brown box as described by Mach. IIRC LC stopped producing M852 around 1994. CMP sold some of the late production M852 during the National matches back in the nineties, I still have two or three 460 rd. cans.

In my experience the older 173gr FMJ bullets used in the M72 and old M118 ammo were not held to very close production tolerances and typically would vary in weight by as much as two grains. It was not uncommon for a bullet to actually weigh 175gr. I don't remember when Sierra started producing the 175gr Match King bullets but I recall working up loads with them to duplicate the newer M118LR in the late nineties. IIRC I used about 42gr of IMR 4895 and I moly coated the bullets. Chronographed MV at about fifteen feet from the muzzle was 2640 fps. I caution anyone that wants to work up loads with this bullet and powder combination to be very careful. The loads I used were very hot but shot quite well in my match M1As at 600 and 1K yards. I will also add that prolonged use of hot loads like these will definately increase the rate of rifle chamber throat erosion. HTH, 7zero1.

7zero1: "High power competition is all about doing your best, everyone else is there for your entertainment".
Mach
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Posted: 5/20/2011 6:44:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/20/2011 6:49:30 AM EST by Mach]
Originally Posted By jasonkb4:
Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
Back in the day M118 Special Ball was issued as a sniper round for the M14, M21, M24 and M40A1 rifles and as a Match round for service rifle competition. It used a 173 gr FMJ - the same bullet used in .30-06 M72 Match ammunition - and represented a strict interpretation of the non expanding ammunition requirements of international law. The propellants used included both IMR 4895 and WC846 for a peak pressure of 50,000 psi and a velocity of 2640 fps, the same velocity as M72 Match. Charge weights are pointless to discuss as at that level of accuracy, the precise charge will vary with the powder lot, even with canister powders. The accuracy standard for M118 was no more than a 12" spread for a 10 shot group at 600 yards.

The potential issue with accuracy and an FMJ is the exposed base of the bullet. It is a lot harder to maintain perfect dimensions and consistency in the base of an FMJ and the dimensional accuracy and consistency is important when the bullet exits the muzzle. That led to the development of M852.

M852 was issued in addition to M118, for use in match grade M14s and civilian M1As. However it was intended only for Match use and training and was prohibited from use in combat (at least initially). This round used a 168 gr Sierra BTHP Match bullet. The hollow point design in this case was intended to allow far more precise dimensional control of the bullet and was not intended to expand. And in point of fact it does not expand and it has become a standard for sniping in police departments and in some militaries.

M118LR was, as the LR suggests, intended to push the effective range of the 7.62x51 from about 800m to 1000m. It uses a 175 gr Sierra BTHP at 2600 fps measured at 23.8m from the muzzle (a standard in all the above velocities) and consistent with a more liberal and more enlightened interpretation of non- expanding ammunition to include bullets other than FMJs, it is approved for use in combat.



Thanks for the history. I have a 460 round ammo can of M852 and wondered why all the brown boxes say "For Training Use only" on them.

They should be red white and blue with an eagle and should say Not for Combat



I can't remember shit anymore.





The cool part is the lot number on the ammo can is the same lot number on all the boxes. I love stuff that fits together.
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.”
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SecurityForcesmember
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Posted: 5/20/2011 7:44:50 AM EST
Actual ATK Data is about 43 grains of non-cannister grade Reloder-15 under a 175 SMK projectile. Primers are to be uncrimped(this is the only LC brass thats uncrimped these days). The original load was slightly over 44 grains of Reloder-15, but it was producing too much pressure when used in desert environments like Iraq ijn the mid summer. Lots of backed out primers and what not. So ATK lowered the charge to about 43.1

To dupe it perfectly:

Lake City Long Range Brass
43.0-43.2 grains of Reloder-15
Fed210M or CCI BR LR primer
175 SMK
2.810 COAL
DakotaFAL
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Posted: 5/20/2011 9:33:59 AM EST
If I recall, the velocity on the M852 was around 2550 fps in an M1A/M14 so the load was a bit slower than the 2640 fps with M72, M118 and M118LR and throat erosion was less of a problem. But I think that also reflects the training and match use of the round where most of it was shot at 600 yards or less.
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Posted: 5/20/2011 3:14:23 PM EST
hrt4me
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Posted: 5/20/2011 5:08:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Actual ATK Data is about 43 grains of non-cannister grade Reloder-15 under a 175 SMK projectile. Primers are to be uncrimped(this is the only LC brass thats uncrimped these days). The original load was slightly over 44 grains of Reloder-15, but it was producing too much pressure when used in desert environments like Iraq ijn the mid summer. Lots of backed out primers and what not. So ATK lowered the charge to about 43.1

To dupe it perfectly:

Lake City Long Range Brass
43.0-43.2 grains of Reloder-15
Fed210M or CCI BR LR primer
175 SMK
2.810 COAL


Thanks!
951bulldog
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Posted: 5/20/2011 7:26:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Actual ATK Data is about 43 grains of non-cannister grade Reloder-15 under a 175 SMK projectile. Primers are to be uncrimped(this is the only LC brass thats uncrimped these days). The original load was slightly over 44 grains of Reloder-15, but it was producing too much pressure when used in desert environments like Iraq ijn the mid summer. Lots of backed out primers and what not. So ATK lowered the charge to about 43.1

To dupe it perfectly:

Lake City Long Range Brass
43.0-43.2 grains of Reloder-15
Fed210M or CCI BR LR primer
175 SMK
2.810 COAL


Thanks!



This is a pretty common load. I use a very similar load, but you can also use Varget or 4895, or 168 grain SMKs, YMMV. I haven't loaded these in awhile, but IIRC I used less powder, something in the 41 grain range, so you'll want to mess around w/ it a bit to see what your rifle likes the best instead of just copying the M118 load.
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Posted: 5/21/2011 11:56:06 AM EST
I've never tried to copy M118, but i use this chart for almost any military round clone and it has been very, very good with 9mm, 45ACP and 30 Carbine.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellq.htm#duplicate
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hrt4me
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Posted: 5/22/2011 2:07:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By xdoctor:
I've never tried to copy M118, but i use this chart for almost any military round clone and it has been very, very good with 9mm, 45ACP and 30 Carbine.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellq.htm#duplicate


Thanks for reposting that link, I had forgotten about that website and its information.
rogue007
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Posted: 6/2/2011 8:40:15 PM EST
After resizing or before, what is the trim length of the case you guys prefer?
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Posted: 6/2/2011 9:38:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By rogue007:
After resizing or before, what is the trim length of the case you guys prefer?


You always measure after sizing and then trim if necessary.

I let my necks grow long, as my chamber has a longish throat, so 2.015|"+ for me.

'Trim To...' is 2.005", Max is 2.015".

Chris

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Posted: 6/3/2011 8:21:23 AM EST
M852 brass had a cannalure on the case right were most case head separations occur.....Good Stuff!
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Posted: 6/3/2011 8:39:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2011 8:41:45 AM EST by SecurityForcesmember]
Originally Posted By 951bulldog:
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Actual ATK Data is about 43 grains of non-cannister grade Reloder-15 under a 175 SMK projectile. Primers are to be uncrimped(this is the only LC brass thats uncrimped these days). The original load was slightly over 44 grains of Reloder-15, but it was producing too much pressure when used in desert environments like Iraq ijn the mid summer. Lots of backed out primers and what not. So ATK lowered the charge to about 43.1

To dupe it perfectly:

Lake City Long Range Brass
43.0-43.2 grains of Reloder-15
Fed210M or CCI BR LR primer
175 SMK
2.810 COAL


Thanks!



This is a pretty common load. I use a very similar load, but you can also use Varget or 4895, or 168 grain SMKs, YMMV. I haven't loaded these in awhile, but IIRC I used less powder, something in the 41 grain range, so you'll want to mess around w/ it a bit to see what your rifle likes the best instead of just copying the M118 load.


It is very common, but since OP asked for the date .... I've never tried varget under a matchking. I may have to try it out.

Bulldog, 41 grains of Rl15 seems awefully low, especially for a bolt gun. Are you using that load in an AR or M1A?