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Posted: 9/25/2010 4:31:25 AM EDT
[#1]
A little more info would be helpful. What caliber and type of gun were you using? Guessing they were reloads, if so, reload data please. SWAG would be the bullets are under sized.
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Posted: 9/25/2010 4:50:01 AM EDT
[#2]
I would guess that you may be using too much powder. Need more info though.
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Posted: 9/25/2010 5:22:06 AM EDT
[#3]
How's the barrel? Specifically leading or no leading?
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Posted: 9/25/2010 6:41:25 AM EDT
[#4]
another posiblility is the diameter is under sized.
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Posted: 9/25/2010 6:53:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
another posiblility is the diameter is under sized. A fella I used to shoot with was using single lube groove bullets in 9mm, he was crimping so tight that it was effectively reducing the front drive band and not allow rifling to grab... rifling only grabbed the rear band, and with lead being soft, I suspect it was stripping the rear and whole bullet was bore riding.. Bell enough to allow bullet to in without shave, and close flare to equal 1 bullet diamer + 2 case wall thickness, figure approx .380 ? |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 6:54:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
another posiblility is the diameter is under sized. That was my first thought. |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 7:53:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Keyholing means it didn't stabilize. Undersized has been my biggest keyholing cause.
You can undersize straight wall pistol caliber lead bullets with a LFCD, I don't think that is going to apply to 357 sig though. I've had several Lee molds that had at least one undersized hole that required "lapping". Crimping too much is a common cause for squishing lead bullets causing them to be undersized. Pull some of your bullets out of their brass cases, they should be .356" I guess it could be possible to not drive the bullet fast enough to get the RPM up to the point where it stabilized, I've suspected (guessed) that as the reason some 9mm guns will occasionally keyhole 147gr bullets but I could be missing something there. Edited to add: If the bullet is undersized you will have leading out the wazoo. |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 8:20:10 AM EDT
[#8]
The poster above (pdg45acp) is pointing you in the right direction. Following his post and I think you will solve your riddle.
jonblack |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 4:45:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Hi all
Here are the stats: 124 gr lead cast truncated cone. Dia sized to .356 Shot in a wolf 357 sig barrel in g20 Using accurate no5 8.4 gr Tumble lube with lee liquid alox. No leading in the barrel I hope this helps Thanks again |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 5:34:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Are these commercial bullets, or did you cast them?
They may be undersize for the bore, if they actually measure .356". It could also be a combination of too soft an alloy and too much velocity. It may just not have enough bearing surface. |
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Posted: 9/25/2010 11:07:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Hi all Here are the stats: 124 gr lead cast truncated cone. Dia sized to .356 Shot in a wolf 357 sig barrel in g20 Using accurate no5 8.4 gr Tumble lube with lee liquid alox. No leading in the barrel I hope this helps Thanks again I'm betting you have a lee tl356-124-tc mold. I have the same mold and have the same issues with keyholing in my xdm. Barrel is 1:16". I've researched this online and it seems many others have the same issue with this bullet. You probably noticed how long the bearing surface is on this bullet. If there is proper fit, I'm betting your barrel just doesn't want to stabilize them like my xdm. |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 4:33:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Hi all Here are the stats: 124 gr lead cast truncated cone. Dia sized to .356 Shot in a wolf 357 sig barrel in g20 Using accurate no5 8.4 gr Tumble lube with lee liquid alox. No leading in the barrel I hope this helps Thanks again Are all the holes throwing .356? Are the pulled bullets all .356 also? Are you sorting? I could never get more than 60% from any of my lee molds. What is the velocity? |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 5:37:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Yes I am casting. I will pull some today and measure it. I am not sure if i am crimping too much. Will post info today
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Posted: 9/26/2010 8:25:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Keyholing means it didn't stabilize. Undersized has been my biggest keyholing cause. You can undersize straight wall pistol caliber lead bullets with a LFCD, I don't think that is going to apply to 357 sig though. I've had several Lee molds that had at least one undersized hole that required "lapping". Crimping too much is a common cause for squishing lead bullets causing them to be undersized. Pull some of your bullets out of their brass cases, they should be .356" I guess it could be possible to not drive the bullet fast enough to get the RPM up to the point where it stabilized, I've suspected (guessed) that as the reason some 9mm guns will occasionally keyhole 147gr bullets but I could be missing something there. Edited to add: If the bullet is undersized you will have leading out the wazoo. How did you go about lapping your LEE molds? I have several of these and have also noticed some variation in diameter. |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 12:27:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Keyholing means it didn't stabilize. Undersized has been my biggest keyholing cause. You can undersize straight wall pistol caliber lead bullets with a LFCD, I don't think that is going to apply to 357 sig though. I've had several Lee molds that had at least one undersized hole that required "lapping". Crimping too much is a common cause for squishing lead bullets causing them to be undersized. Pull some of your bullets out of their brass cases, they should be .356" I guess it could be possible to not drive the bullet fast enough to get the RPM up to the point where it stabilized, I've suspected (guessed) that as the reason some 9mm guns will occasionally keyhole 147gr bullets but I could be missing something there. Edited to add: If the bullet is undersized you will have leading out the wazoo. How did you go about lapping your LEE molds? I have several of these and have also noticed some variation in diameter. This search returns about a dozen fairly good explainations. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lapping+%22lee+molds%22 |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 1:26:20 PM EDT
[#16]
K I pulled a bullet from the casing and it measures .351 it seems that the previous poster was correct about the crimping. Maybe I crimped it too much. Is .004 enough to make the round "bounce" down the barrel?
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Posted: 9/26/2010 1:32:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
K I pulled a bullet from the casing and it measures .351 it seems that the previous poster was correct about the crimping. Maybe I crimped it too much. Is .004 enough to make the round "bounce" down the barrel? More than enough to prevent the rifling from getting a good grip. The next question is, was it overcrimping or was it an undersized cast that wasn't caught in the post casting sort.. |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 3:37:37 PM EDT
[#18]
I size all the bullets before using them. I checked about 30 and they all measured the same .356 I am going to try less crimp and pull them and see what I get
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Posted: 9/26/2010 3:53:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I size all the bullets before using them. I checked about 30 and they all measured the same .356 I am going to try less crimp and pull them and see what I get What kind of reject rate are you getting in casting? |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 5:20:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Have you measured a sized case to see what the inside diameter is? Depending on your alloy, it's possible that the case is squeezing the bullet down. Also possible is that your die was made a bit small.
Are you using a FCD? |
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Posted: 9/26/2010 8:21:58 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
K I pulled a bullet from the casing and it measures .351 it seems that the previous poster was correct about the crimping. Maybe I crimped it too much. Is .004 enough to make the round "bounce" down the barrel? Slug your barrel with an "as sized" bullet. Now slug your barrel with a pulled bullet. Do you see a significant different in how the rifling engaged the bullets? I didn't notice if you mentioned your alloy or its hardness. Could be you are too soft and the crimp is reducing the diameter. Well obviously something is reducing the bullet diameter, we just need to help you figure out how to eliminate that. jonblack |
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Posted: 9/28/2010 10:11:08 AM EDT
[#22]
I get this in my Ruger 9mms if I try a load that is too mild. The loads shoot like gangbusters in a BHP. I bump the load up a few tenths, still well below max, and they stop keyholing.
ETA. 125 cast RN only. 122 TC and FN shoot just fine with the reduced load. |
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Posted: 10/1/2010 5:52:42 AM EDT
[#23]
hi all
update. i made about 10 rounds last night to take to the range today. i did a load that is in the middle of the range. this time i pulled the bullet to measure and make sure i wasnt over crimping it. original bullet dia .356 after crimp and pulling it .355 so i am hoping for better results this time. i will post my results tonight. thanks for all the help lojack |
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Posted: 10/1/2010 8:20:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Keyholing means it didn't stabilize. Undersized has been my biggest keyholing cause. You can undersize straight wall pistol caliber lead bullets with a LFCD, I don't think that is going to apply to 357 sig though. I've had several Lee molds that had at least one undersized hole that required "lapping". Crimping too much is a common cause for squishing lead bullets causing them to be undersized. Pull some of your bullets out of their brass cases, they should be .356" I guess it could be possible to not drive the bullet fast enough to get the RPM up to the point where it stabilized, I've suspected (guessed) that as the reason some 9mm guns will occasionally keyhole 147gr bullets but I could be missing something there. Edited to add: If the bullet is undersized you will have leading out the wazoo. How did you go about lapping your LEE molds? I have several of these and have also noticed some variation in diameter. This search returns about a dozen fairly good explainations. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lapping+%22lee+molds%22 Thanks a bunch for the info! |
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Posted: 10/4/2010 7:53:50 AM EDT
[#25]
hi all
friday range report. well it was not conclusive. i made ten rounds and most of them did not keyhole. was hoping for better results. only thing with the loads that i made was that some had slightly more crimp than the others. so i made a batch of twenty with notation about how much crimp is on each. ie control, 1/4 turn more, 1/2 turn more and -1/4 turn. all with the same power amount. upped that to 8.7grains of Accurate No5. will go shooting tuesday so i will post more results. |
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Posted: 10/4/2010 9:18:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Why this huge concern about crimping?
If you belled the case mouth at all before bullet seating you need to just remove the bell. Crimping is NOT what holds the bullet i the case. NECK TENSION created by forcing a bullet larger than the ID of the case into the brass creates the neck tension that hold the bullet (interference fit). Crimping can only provide a small increase in the tension holding the bullet unless you do a serious roll crimp in to a canelure on the bullet. If the neck tension is not adequate after seating the bullet the case has not been sized adequately or has been flared excessively. |
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Posted: 10/4/2010 12:34:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Correct me if I'm wrong, I was of the opinion .357 Sig used .356" jacketed bullets the same as .38 Super. If that is true, you will want at least a .357" diameter cast bullet. Lead bullets should be at least .001" larger than the handgun's jacketed version.
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Posted: 10/19/2010 10:38:06 AM EDT
[#28]
hummm well i found out that my lead was way too soft for that round. i am trying a harder lead for the casting and i am hoping that they come in around a 16 - 20 bhn. that should be plenty hard enough without it being to hard. i will post after i have done some more testing.
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Posted: 10/19/2010 10:54:57 AM EDT
[#29]
I'm shooting an alloy that should be around 12-14 bhn at 1300+ fps, but I have much longer bearing surfaces on the bullets than .357 sig offers. Actually...I take that back. I have loaded some 124 grain 9mm(cast) hp bullets to around 1220 fps and I did not experience any problems with keyholing.
A harder alloy may help you since the bearing surface is so short that it's probably stripping when it hits the rifling. Have you been able to recover any bullets for examination? |
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Posted: 10/19/2010 10:56:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Correct me if I'm wrong, I was of the opinion .357 Sig used .356" jacketed bullets the same as .38 Super. If that is true, you will want at least a .357" diameter cast bullet. Lead bullets should be at least .001" larger than the handgun's jacketed version. IIRC, nominal spec for .38 Super is .355". 9mm and .357 Sig are also .355" nominal diameter. |
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Posted: 10/19/2010 5:07:41 PM EDT
[#31]
nope i cant recover the projectile. i shoot at in indoor range. i used the same projectiles in a 9mm with a lower powder charge and got some keyholing and lots of lead. which then lead me to testing the hardness of the projectile. it was make from bullet core and not wheel weights. i did some casting with ww last night and some oven treatment to them also. so it takes 48hrs for it to completely cure. i am hoping for a hardness from 16 and above. hopefully i can get them loaded and ready to shoot on saturday.
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Posted: 10/24/2010 4:38:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Success. I found my issue. The lead was way too soft. I shot some cas from ww and didn't get one keyhole. Everything was exactly the same only difference was the harder lead. Thanks for all the help n
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