What you are selling...I ain't buying.   Nothing you have said makes  any sense to anyone that owns  firearms.  I get the feeling you are trolling.

I will call it.



This, or you are really screwed and trying to get others to admit something on an open forum to help out your new overlords.

They didn't ask and I wasn't about start volunteering info with them during the initial encounter. I'm not sure if it really would have mattered as all the different generations would look the same once you replace the hammer and sear with the aluminum ones.  I'm not even sure how that would have worked if my Gen 2 gun was involved.  Would I tell them wait a minute you can't take that one because it came with parts that look the same but this other one is the naughty gun?  I can only imagine how that would have gone down.  I'm just gonna assume that they look at thing and if it has been modded it must be bad.

Awww shit. If his new ATF palls are reading this I was just joking before. I think the ATF is a swell buch of guys.

Ever flash your lights because you just drove by a cop and want to help other people avoid trouble?  I'm not sure what angle you think I might be working but if you have something figured out please explain it so I can understand.  And how anything I posted is trying to entrap somebody else I don't know where you might be getting that.  I'm just a guy who is flashing his lights.

It's just because it really doesn't make any sense. Honestly i'm a bit skeptical too.

Are you able to post any of the paperwork? Names and other sensitive info removed of course.

It's like if I ordered a CZ scorpion stock and the ATF showing up to make sure I have an approved form 1 trying to bust me for intent to illegally manufacture an SBR.  

Because the devil is in the details, and you are not providing any.

Is your flashing lights...


Don't buy FA trigger parts.

Don't modify trigger packs

Cooperate with the ATF.

Keep quite?

Read what you sign?

Don't read what you sign.

You imply this investigation was connected to another, "member"




Nothing you say adds up.

Seems like Gen1 profile short pull hammers are being sold from a pretty reputable re-seller...pretty sure if it was a no-no by the po-po he would not be selling the hammer....seems like there is no restriction on which Gen they can be used on.  So..yeah..not sure why they would visit and take your PS90.  Reference:  https://www.bullpuparmory.com/product_p/mk-p90-sph.htm

OP:

I don't own a PS90 and at this point won't............

But if its makes you feel any better, I have 2 stories, one general and the other personal:

-So back in the 60's or something, what was the ATF then allowed FN to import some FN-FAL's that had the auto sear cut out still in them.  Once they realized their mistake (the rifle was too easily altered to full), they stopped the importation.  Then, at the time, with things the way they were then , their decision was to, instead of collecting them up, simply exempt them.  Google a "G-Series" FN FAL.  

So what I'm saying is the ATF (right or wrong) realizes their mistake, which is nothing new, but now it seems they collect stuff.  

-Which brings me to my story:  So 15yrs ago ,when all the FN FAL parts and kits and were FLOODING the market. I bought a kit from a dealer (paid with credit card etc) and all was good.  Well it turns out another dealer didn't like the Dealer I bought from and mentioned to the ATF, his kits had the "full Auto" ejector block still in them.  So I get a letter from the ATF, asking if I still had the kit and if so if they could arrange to pick up a "part that was mistakenly included in the kit."  I agreed, made sure the kit was on the coffee table, and otherwise a decent enough guy showed up, and compared the parts I had to a picture he had of the ejector block.  Once he found it, he gave me a receipt for it and went on his merry way.............  I didn't ask or offer anything nor did he.  

As far as you losing your rifle.......... I can't answer the question of if they should've taken it.  
Like you I wasn't willing to argue/refuse the issue.

To the others: If you don't trust the man, why are you arguing with him?  I mean if he was some sort of plant etc, he isn't going to admit it.  Whether he is or not, the fact is the ATF is spun up about these packs and so if you are mucking around with them, be careful.    

So if the hammer pack is the problem, why did they not just take that and leave the gun so you could put the factory hammer pack back in?

They still have your gun because you haven't asked for it back.  They aren't going to go out of their way to do you a favor and return your stuff for you.
Considering your story is all true, you would have been charged if you had done something illegal, right?  Especially something as serious as converting a gun to full-auto.

I have a hard time believing that they would show up at your house after a GunBroker purchase or whatever, which they were clearly actively monitoring, just to then drag their feet looking for whatever they were looking for.  They looked and found nothing and moved on to the next thing.  They even contacted you after they had walked out with it, so theyve obviously looked into your case, and its been months since yoiu've heard anything...

That's the only real logic to any of this.  The rest doesn't really make any sense.

You say you didn't do anything wrong, yet you allow your rights to be stepped on because you have a lot to lose.  This is the exact kind of thing we are supposed to be fighting against.  The least you can do is tell them you want your property back if you clearly did nothing wrong.

I guess I could have been more clear about that as I posted the original post both here and on FN forum with only minimal adjustments and didn't clarify that particular sentance.  The member referred to is actually on of the moderators on that forum and was a source for the armorers manual for the P90 which had a lot of details on functioning of the gun.  Its probably still in an old email account if it's even active but that's all I received from him.  There was a question about what all I had received from him but that manual was it, if he was providing any other instructions on converting guns I don't know anything about it.  I mention it because there were a lot of people who had requested it from him a long time ago on FN forum and figured that it would be an important detail for anyone who had received it and was in a similar situation.  Dunno if he still gives it out but I'm sure FN doesn't appreciate their copyrighted stuff being passed out.

60's or something, what was the ATF then allowed FN to import some FN-FAL's that had the auto sear cut out still in them. Once they realized their mistake (the rifle was too easily altered to full), they stopped the importation. Then, at the time, with things the way they were then , their decision was to, instead of collecting them up, simply exempt them. Google a "G-Series" FN FAL.


True dat ! Bought 2 of them for the shop I worked in after the ATF researched it. The guy selling had no idea what he had. Produced a zip lock with the FA selectors and just said "these came with it. I don't know why". Called ATF and they came down wrote down the info from each gun. Asked us to just hold the Rifles in the shop for a couple days because the agent wanted to make a couple phone calls. He took the FA selectors with him. Called back 2 days later and said we are GTG. That there was a bunch of imported FN FAL's with a now restricted design floating around but they are grandfathered. ATF guys I worked with back then were very chill. Unless it was apparent someone was overtly planning on violating the law, they slapped their hand, confiscated the parts and moved on. Plenty of people actually doing gangster shit to go after..

Thanks for the post.... I appreciate hearing from someone who has been in a similar predicament.  It seems like there are lots of these little stories over the years.  I remember several years back reading about guys who had bought some Yugoslavian AK variant that apparently had the auto sear still in the design.  The story I reead was that some folks got wind that the ATF was round them all up and turned their guns into parts kits and were able to just hand over the receiver.

I wonder what Nolo would think about this.

I considered contacting him when it all first occurred but I wanted someone local as it seemed like I needed representation right now.  My lawyer isn't a gun guy but it also seemed like a bad idea to start giving him a bunch of advice from stuff I had read about gun laws from a lawyer that posts on this forum.  I don't follow Nolos posts extremely closely here so I don't know how he handles work from members here but I didn't want to be the guy who came looking for charity.  I'm not poor but I'm also not looking to burn a bunch of money on lawyers either.  I don't want to sound like a dick but at this point I don't really care what he might think about my case.  I have accepted what has happened and am trying to move on.  If he weighed in with advice for others on how to handle things differently that would be great but I'm really not interested in going on some long quest to right every wrong in the world.  My family is ok, my dog didn't get shot and at some point I will buy a new PS90.

At this point I'm about ready to call it quits on this.  I got the whole story off my chest which was something that had really been on my mind for a while now.  I hadn't expected so much hate which was why I don't post in GD much anymore.  I swear a guy could post a story from CNN about his family being kidnapped by ISIS and half of GD would be saying he was full of shit and the other half would tell him to man up and go kill them with a knife.  

Well really what do you expect? Someone saying they made a 2nd profile (which you're not supposed to do). To tell a story that makes very little to no sense. And can't provide details for why they did what they did or the documents that might explain it. And who thinks people who took his property for no good reason were professional, and who is willing to let them keep his property as a learning experience?  

Seriously? I think you are confusing hate with skepticism for some random person on the internet. If this thread bothers you so much it's no wonder you can't pick up the phone to figure out where your rifle is, because you have done nothing wrong.

I guess we just have different perspectives and hopefully you will never see it from mine.  If you haven't read it I would suggest reading through this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1850839__ARCHIVED_THREAD____I_just_got_visited_by_the_ATF_UPDATE_overlooked_item.html&page=1

To say that I'm not willing to pursue it as a "learning experience" is just plain misrepresentation of everything I have said about why I'm not pursuing it.

So you spam the various boards with your story using a fake account....What exactly is the learning point?

I did a while ago.

From what I recall he got a visit for buying 60-70 stripped lowers. Often 10+ at a time. And while not illegal it is pretty suspicious. They went just to make sure he wasn't buying them to resell, which is illegal.

Did they charge him with anything? Did they take anything from him?

How is his situation at all like yours?


And what I was saying is it's ridiculous to allow them to take your gun and chalk it up to a "learning experience". You did nothing wrong, you do understand that, right? You didn't manufacture a machine gun, you never intended to manufacture a machine gun. They stole your property, that is wrong. Follow up on it then. Call someone and ask them where your gun is.

Don't try and help other people avoid a problem you encountered.  Don't share that you aren't willing to go toe to toe with the man and spend all your money fighting over all other priorities.  At least that's my learning points. I swear we are our own worst enemy.

How so? No offense but you're not helping. You lied down and let them take what they shouldn't have. At least try to get it back. Unless you feel like you have done something wrong and deserved to have your rifle taken? Like I said before this is why they do this shit. Because they can and don't get called on it.

I'm really starting to feel like you are fuckin(FN)around with us.

No, really....what are you trying to say?

Don't modify your trigger?

Don't modify your firearm?

Don't let the ATF into your home?

Bend over and take it in the ass ?

What?

This:



It's right there at the beginning of the thread.  I got my story off my chest and maybe helped someone else. If other people have bought these parts and want to run this thing to ground they are welcome to do so.

But it's not particularly helpful because we don't know the why for really any of it. Why did the ATF choose you? Because you bought the parts or because of some online interaction? Why did the ATF take the parts not in the gun? Why did they take an entire gun? If they thought you were breaking the law why haven't you been charged? If the ATF doesn't like these parts why are they still manufactured and available from reputable retailers? Why has no one contacted you since? Why are you unwilling to get your property back?

Now I'm not saying you're lying but to me all this adds up to there's more to the story. Especially since everything you've posted says you've done nothing wrong or illegal and are not willing to at least call someone to ask where your rifle is.

Because none of it makes much sense at all. And the only thing you post to further your claim is a link to someone else who got a visit for some entirely different reason.

And really I'm not trying to be a dick about it, I just want to understand the why in all of it.

So is this a correct summary, because I honestly can't figure out the angle here:

You bought some parts that are known to be used for illegal conversions, but legal as is
The ATF tracked you down from apparent knowledge of the sale from most likely the records of the vendor for said legal parts and maybe a posting on a board about a manual.  
The ATF seized your legal parts in a legal gun, and another set of legal parts from the first purchase.  Or you voluntarily signed them over to be checked?  

Story sounds odd man.

OP needs to start researching a new firearms law lawyer.

Like a proper Divorce Attorney, a attorney who specializes in firearms law is worth every penny.

My attorney is not a firearms law specialist, but is a former FFL holder so understands the ropes and traps and knows who to call for specific consultation.

this is my thoughts

 

Someone had a SKS seized at a show. The gun was pre-89. The guy (a member) had it properly configured with the bayo. Some twit with the ATF seized it b/c of the bayo. He tried to explain it was pre-89 and her response was "our memos say no bayos on sks rifles". Guy said he went to the office to speak with her supervisor and he told him to fuck-off, they could always charge him with a 922 violation if he wanted to argue about it... Guy just decided to eat the $200 or so that the gun was worth and move on.

This doesn't make sense either. There is not (nor ever was) anything unlawful about having a full auto ejector block, unless you also have a receiver milled to accept an auto sear (like the grandfathered FN receivers mentioned). Obviously demilitarized military parts kits are going to (or at least used to) come with all the full auto parts included. There's nothing illegal about possessing them, unless they can fit into your receiver, or you make them fit. I would not feel the need to surrender my spare full-auto ejector block from a kit just because some agent was misinformed. Same for my PS90 or whatever. If I know it's legal, I'm going to politely refuse, and ask that they come back with a warrant. This gives me more ammo to reclaim my property, should they choose to seize it unconstitutionally.

 
 

It was the ejector block with the receiver section attached................  I guess they thought it would be easy to weld all that back together and have a functioning rifle........  

Or if you prefer it was the receiver section that included the ejector block.  

Still that should render the same response. You are describing a properly demilled receiver section. It's as legal as any other paperweight hunk of scrap steel, just as that ejector block would be, all by itself.

I really appreciate a heads up but I too am confused.

Don't buy aluminum replacement parts?

Don't but these parts and have a  .pdf on how to convert to full auto?

I realize the ATF does mental gymnastics but I own AR's, files and a drill press.  

What was done that is verboten?

So, can someone explain to me why the BATFE took the firearm. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but a big piece of the puzzle appears to be missing

We're all wanting to know why but I have a feeling the OP is done with us.

I didn't buy the parts from whoever it was that a link was posted to earlier in the thread, it was one of the smaller GB sellers.  I was going to buy the parts from HDD but for a long time they would only sell them to SOTs which I should have taken as a clue.  I know there are lots of these parts out there being sold by a few different people and my personal opinion at this point is that several of them on GB are just fronts for some larger law enforcement scheme.   I'm sure there are legitimate companies selling these parts for the time being as well but I'm guessing that will be cut off at some point as well and customer lists seized.  I hate to be conspiratorial but that would be just to sort of thing that could end up killing the PS90.  The ATF would make a big deal in the media with BS about how FN is so reckless making guns that shoot cop killer bullets and how all these parts are being sold to make them into machine guns.  My guess is that they are just testing the waters to see how many people they can catch doing naughty stuff through a few test channels.  I don't know why I'm the first one to report this, for all I know maybe anybody else they caught doing bad stuff and are in a cell.  Maybe they just don't won't to come forward or aren't Arf members or who knows what.  As for the logic of why cops overstep the bounds on anything I would love to be able to tell you all because I would write a best selling book and have all the guns I wanted.  Last I heard nobody has sorted that problem out.

Nope, the only thing that remotely comes close is they asked if I had recieved any materials from the guy on FN forum who was giving out rhe P90 armorers manual years ago.  They didnt seem to care about the manua and I couldn't even get to the manual if I wanted to as I never got around to printing a copy as it was a hundred something pages.  I'm not sure how they would have connected the two unless there is something I don't know about.  Maybe it was just a fishing question that I didn't completely fall for?  To answer your question directly I don't even joke about conversion stuff for exactly that reason.

What do you want me to say? Because they could? Because I was in an insanely stressful situation and don't have a lawyer on speed dial or the bravado to argue with people who apparently can decide my fate? I'm sure I could have been a badass and probably would have ended up spending 10x on lawyers getting myself out of that jam.  I have apparently failed to live up to the standards of Internet bravado required to post here.  I was happy to get all this off my chest a few days ago and now I'm glad I did so anonymously as I would probably just have to quit this place entirely.

In your OP you said you never received a manual. Now you are saying you never got around to printing a copy of it.

What naughty stuff? Improving trigger pull?

Just how many cases do you hear about for people making illegal machine guns?

Who sold you the parts?

at least he knew the why and basically got the answer to "or else what"...

I understand the OPs logic in not pursuing further action, just confused that he handed everything over and signed documents without knowing why or what happens if I don't.   Its almost an admission of guilt by not asking and just by signing documents doesn't mean you are out of the woods.  

Is the OP an NRA member?  They do on occasion make legal counsel available to members.

No.  I stated that I hadn't received anything other than the manual.  I'm not sure what you have to gain with all this.  If you are selling these parts I guess it could make sense because you haven't done anything but try and pick things apart and deny this happened to me.  

 If nobody has anything useful to add or relevant questions I'm about done with this.

Yes and I tried that number on the back of my card when I first went looking for a lawyer but there wasn't anyone in my immediate area.  I didn't pursue it with them beyond that.

No one has asserted that it did not happen.  The issue is your story makes no sense.

I hypothesize that OPs real username is frequently used by him on this and other forums. OP bought these parts and posted about them and has previously posted eyebrow raising statements about their potential.

This thread was posted under a different username so that the Arfcom sleuths can't google his real username and post quotes that show questionable statements.

They picked OP for a reason, and it wasn't because he swapped plastic parts for aluminum. The only thing missing is his real username which would likely reveal a lot.

Well If that's what you meant to say about the manual that's not how it comes across in your sentence.

No, I am not selling these parts. What I have to gain is an understanding as to why the ATF is coming to someone's house and taking their parts and gun. Then not pursuing it any further by either charging you, giving you your stuff back, or at least having some more follow up questions .

You are the one who could have something useful to add but won't. Figuring out the real reason why it happened and why they haven't given you your stuff back.

If you think I'm giving you a hard time it's just because I think there is a piece of this story being omitted.

You make a new account, sprinkle in some GD lingo, and bam, you have a nice story. That's really not very helpful because who knows what else you've really done besides order some completely legal parts.

Now this would make sense.

I can sympathize with the OP.  It's really not that easy to stand toe-to-toe with officers and government agents if you're not an expert in the field and know exactly what you're talking about.  You're afraid you're going to miss something, some technicality, etc. that makes you in the wrong.  And if you call them out, that you're going to get yourself into deeper trouble.  I don't blame him for one minute for wanting to only deal with the ATF while represented by an attorney at this point.  The very fact that they showed up on his doorstep and confiscated a firearm is evidence enough that he was or still is under investigation by a federal agency.  I wouldn't speak to them unless represented by an attorney either, and I wouldn't be the one speaking to them.  When you consider the costs associated with fighting to get the gun back, I can understand OP's pragmatic approach in this situation, no matter how infuriating it might be to him or to us on the board.


All that said, I'm pretty shocked by the story myself.

A few years back, I purchased a RR Colt M16.  I filed the paperwork for the transfer and started waiting.  But I didn't wait to start ordering parts for it.  Along with an upper, sights, etc., I also purchased a brand new Colt Full Auto FCG with an autosear and selector.  And I also purchased a Geissele SSF full-auto trigger.  

I can't remember names, but the first company I contacted about the FCG asked me for a copy of my form 4.  I emailed them back that it was in-transfer and that I hadn't received it yet.  I was going to wait to purchase it from them when it did, but ended up buying one from another retailer who as I recall is very reputable and involved with Colt firearms and police supply.

I never got a visit.  It did occur to me at the time that purchasing that stuff could have looked suspicious, but I always figured that I could point to the pending form 4 if they ever showed up to question it.  I kinda find it hard to believe that the ATF stalks sellers of this stuff online and then cross-references buyers with Form. 4s, but maybe they do.  Actually, in my case they couldn't because I purchased the parts under my name but the gun is in trust.


In any case, here's what I'm betting happened.  The ATF arrested a guy somewhere who had illegally converted a PS90 to auto.  Upon inspecting the gun and interrogating him, they found out he purchased some parts from the seller OP bought his from.  ATF raided the seller and found his customer list.  ATF then sent out agents to those buyers to inspect the parts and, if installed, confiscate the guns for inspection.  ATF now has the gun in lockup either a) awaiting further testing or b) waiting for OP to demand it's return.  It wouldn't matter that the parts OP purchased were legal and didn't convert the gun; the mere presence of those parts in the convicted fellow's gun that started the investigation warranted them collecting similar guns for testing.  Or at least in their mind.


OP, one last piece of advice.  Contact Nolo and see if he can recommend an attorney in your area that deals with these issues.  Most initial consultations are free.  Sit down with the recommended attorney and ask him to draft a letter to the ATF asking for return of the gun.  The letter should only cost you $150-250.  Ask him to do nothing else.  ATF will send a letter back.  In it they'll either send instructions on how to retrieve the gun or insist that they aren't releasing it.  You don't have to put the attorney on retainer or anything to get the gun back, or ask him to represent you in any other capacity with reference to the incident.  Just get him to write the letter.  Nolo probably can't do It for you himself anyway because he's probably not licensed in your state.