I'm thinking about getting ARES MCR to use with my RLL.
I've heard that ARES MCR semi-auto bolt version has SP1 spec carrier and it's good to go with RLL.
Does anyone know if that's true or some modification required?
Anyone ran with RLL? if so could you share the experience?

With my limited research, I've come to the conclusion that MCR version is about the same as Shrike.
What's the current going rate of ARES MCR complete rifle with Keymod rail or should I just get the regular handguard?
How do you tell is I'm getting the current version and what's difference between old version vs current version?

Sorry for the lengthy questions and  many thanks in advance.

They are all MCRs now no such thing as a shrike anymore.
The most current vesion has a larger lug on the charging handle and a steel insert just above the barrel extension..
I dont know what the current price of the key mod is, but while shopping for a new unit.. the barrel profile, feed tray, and whether it comes with sights and a barrel handle determine the price... if you think wow this ones a deal.... its not.

As far as your RLL, i use a RDIAS so this isnt first hand info.. you want the semi bolt carrier and it will either work as is or require modification but its not a big deal

I cant help with all the MCR  vs. Shrike vs. Keymod version questions.

If you want the most updated receiver design I would probably contact Ares and confirm  that the version you are getting has the beefed up rear lug and steel feed insert.

As for running a Shrike with a RLL, I have for many years.   The semi carrier in my experience (with the two I own) is perfectly cut to SP1 specs and was pretty much plug and play from a link perspective..

those douchbags

I told them they need to do this but they said it was impossible


Also tag

Was ammo eating out the aluminum upper when fed from the belts?



 

This is a long established issue with Shrike's with incremental improvements over the years.

The original feed tray design allowed for the bullet tips to hit the aluminum feed ramp in the upper receiver and eventually wear it to the point that bullets would get caught under the steep lip of the receiver extension on the barrel.

Ares originally tried to fix this with a change to the feed ramp geometry which better protected the receiver.  For me the wear I experienced pretty much seemed to stop once I bought a new $500 steel feed tray from Ares.   Another incremental fix was the top cover insert designed by Mark Genovese.  I bought one his inserts awhile back which pretty much stops wear on the receiver as the rounds are essentially controller into the steel barrel extension.

The latest/ final solution appears to just be a steel feed ramp in the receiver from the factory.

I have never had an issue with the charging handle or rear lug but I know that folks have reported issues with both breaking, so it was a smart move to beef up these areas as well.

I had heard about the aftermarket feed guide.  I wonder if it makes any difference now.

hell yeah

I go a new receiver but it was a huge pain- I have a thread about it.

When I was talking to the owner he said it was not needed. Anyway I used a feed ramp made by a guy in HI to protect the Al-works like a champ

I would still use it because it keeps the bullets from hitting anything and makes a smoother cycle

Great info as always...

Do you know when ARES changed their aluminum tray to steel tray?
What about the new Nickel boron tray? are they worth it or any better than the std steel tray?
Where can I get the Top cover insert designed by Mark Genovese? is this something std with new ARES uppers?

Do you have a info for this seller?

I believe that the default (value option) feed tray is still aluminum.  However I am not sure what the feed profile is like.

I have been running the nickel boron steel tray for 4 or 5 years now without issue.  I would get the nickel boron tray over the standard steel tray as the cost is only like $100 more for the coated tray vs. the uncoated.   I cant speak to the phosphate steel tray and if it is really worth a $100 saving as I have never owned one.

I have pictures of the difference in feed tray profiles but apparently photobucket is down right now.

The top cover insert you have to buy from Mark directly.  Its around $100 give or take and you will need to email him at   mauiarms at maui dot net .   Be prepared to send a money order off to Hawaii where he lives and it takes a couple weeks for delivery.

Edited to add feed tray design changes.

Old aluminum tray which exposes more of the receiver and you can see the missing anodizing on the receiver feed ramp.



New Steel Tray which better protects this area.

Thanks Jbntex!
Wow... it looks like new steel tray is way to go!
The old tray caused some damage... didn't expect that bad.

It's really hard to get the MCR with newest steel tray.
I could not find them except the GunBroker.
Do you know any place other than GunBroker or Ruben?

How's the reliability compare to MM23E?

Midwest has them go in and out of stock, I've been keeping my eye on them here for my rll. I'd imagine they have the newest ones as well.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/ares-defense-uppers

Have you tried Ares directly?  I believe they sell direct to the end consumer as well.

The Shrike and MM23e have their pros and cons.

Reliability-wise the MM23e (I have the shorter K variant) will only reliably run with NATO spec 62gr M855/SS109.   Mine when fed a steady diet of Priv Partizan M855 is rock solid and will chew through belt after belt with boring reliability when paired with the 20+ locking piece.  (the standard #20 / 70 deg locking piece is worthless for the K variant)  

However give it 55gr M193 and it doesn't have enough back pressure to reliably cycle the action back far enough for the case to hit the ejector reliably, so you end up with FTEs.   I recently bought a 20++ locking piece to see if I can get 55gr  to run and so far my limited testing has been mixed.  Nato Spec M193 may work but Wolf Gold definitely does not.

Its just a pain in the ass to have to buy M855 which is more expensive, less available, and more range intolerant (due to the steel core) just for one gun.

The cyclic rate on the MM23EK is more stable and the recoil is almost non-existent give how much the gun weighs.

The Shrike is not as picky an eater as the MM23EK and will happily digest just about any decent brass case ammo you feed it with equal apportionment. ( steel case is a non-starter for my Shrike)

However, the Shrike gets more random stoppages vs. the MM23EK (when run with M855).    The Shrike also like to run fast to be reliable as it really needs a good bounce off the buffer to strip the next round.  Granted some of the stoppages are probably user/owner induced as I try to keep the ROF as low as possible using a non-factory recommended config while still maintaining reliability so mine runs more on the ragged edge vs. just letting it scream along at 900rpm with the monster Ares recoil spring and an H3.

Given the Shrike's relative light weight and preference for high ROF it is not as smooth to shoot as the MM23EK and it jumps around a lot more both off a bipod and offhand.

I have read multiple reports that the full size hydraulic buffers with a cut down MG34 recoil spring works really well.  I tried the carbine Kynshot hydraulic buffer without success but plan to buy a rifle one and get it a try to see what happens.

I wonder how long the feedramp would last running this stuff.

call ares for the new tray- Be aware that they will not guarantee it will work with 55gr ammo. Mine will not feed the 55gr w/o the feed insert. The feed insert is required IMO. I run 55gr wolf ammo most of the time.

I don't have a MM23e but I have a BPP23Ek and a shrike. One is a beltfed and one is a AR that thinks its a beltfed.

Both run 100% on wolf ammo and short barrels. (since I have corrected early problems-i have two threads on them)

The mcr is not as fun to shoot. its light but it jumps a lot and has harder recoil.  The way it holds a saw box is wonky and really keeps the gun too high, and its not nice to shoot in the prone/off a table. Basically you need to build a feed box like i did or use 100rd nutsacks. I do run a heavy buffer to slow it down.

The 23eK is a ground up beltfed. Its heavier but it doesn't have any recoil and doesn't jump around at all. ROF is exact and doesn't speed up like the mcr will after long belt dumps.  Longterm the 23e will outlast the mcr.

this is a old video with a junk stock light buffer/light spring, I have a new buffer(correct) that makes it even smoother


watch this thing jump around

with the feed insert, it would last forever, the rounds never touch

Requiring M855 ammo is a deal breaker for me... is it just K model or std one as well?
How do you rate the reliability of MCR? about 90%? 95%?
For Kynshot Buffers, do you need to get the rifle version with fixed stock?

wow... didn't know about the excessive recoil.
How do you compare MCR's recoil or jumping with regular 10.5" M4 during full-auto fire?
Where do you buy the feed insert? is this std with newer model?...sorry for the stupid question
What buffer & recoil spring combo do you use? how's the reliability with new buffer & spring?

mcr:

recoil is the same as a m4, so its not excessive, but the gun is not as heavy as a 23e so its bounces/recoils more. Its not "excessive" its just not good for a beltfed IMO. The 23e is just easier to hold on target.

I use a wolf spring and a homeade buffer-basically a H3 weight buffer in the MCR

feed insert is the same as posted above

23e:

I don't know if the last question was about the HK but I had a "american made heavy buffer" with my ghetto stock in the vid. I did not have a 21e buffer in it and you could tell-the rollers were peening the receiver plus extra recoild. I have a UBR stock on my23e made by TSC with correct buffer- SO much better. I change out recoil springs every 5 thousand or so and it runs smooth.



old stock (ghetto/homamde)



I would choose the 23e over the mcr if I have use a beltfed- but its a toss-up on the "fun-ess" of the guns on the range.

True, it can also be converted to a HK21 for some 308 fun.
But if you already own a M16 the MCR is a no brainer unless you have $40,000+ burning a hole in your pocket.

I will try and answer the questions you had, if I miss anything let me know.

Recoil

My take is the shrike recoil isn’t excess.  I would say it more vigorous than an M4, but  I consider an M4 a very soft shooting platform.    The Shrike is piston driven and like most piston ARs I have shot the recoil is greater than a comparable DI system.

From a comparison perspective I would say the Shrike is slightly more vigorous in the recoil department than my older LWRC 10.5” piston upper.  

The big difference in perceived recoil of the Shrike in comparison to the 23e is the weight delta between the two platforms.  The Shrike/MCR is something like 7 to 8 lbs in weight.   The HK23e (full size) is about 20lbs and the K variant maybe 17lbs-ish.  So the 23e is somewhere between 2x to 3x the weight of the Shrike depending upon configuration.  Ten extra pounds of weight on a 5.56 platform soaks up a lot of recoil.

The bolt travel in the 23e is also longer as it’s a 5.56 cartridge running in a 7.62x51 G3 length receiver and with a nice big recoil buffer assembly in the stock, vs. essentially an H series buffer with the traditional little rubber donut on the end.  

Current Setup

My personal Shrike is currently set up with a MGI rate reducing buffer, a Sprinco “red” enhanced M4 spring, and I also have a ~1.5” long reciprocating tungsten weight custom built into the carrier body.    I had no luck with the kynshot carbine buffer but want to try out a Colt Rifle Length hydraulic with an MG34 spring based off others reviews.

As TaylorWSO  mentioned the Shrike also holds the belt box pretty low in the normal factory configuration using the Ares saw box adapter.  There are ways around this by either making a custom box (like he did) or in my case, I made custom receiver which eliminated the traditional magwell and allows a standard SAW pouch to attach directly to the receiver without the use of an adapter and much higher up position.



Reliability

In the reliability department, my Shrike has good days and not so good days.  

Some range days it will run belt after belt without issue.  

Other days it will be more temperamental because I have either changed something up (new buffer, spring combo, brass catcher, etc.) or something has broken or worn out.  

Just recently my Shrike developed a new  random FTE issues which I diagnosed down to a failed extractor spring.   I have it replaced but have not taken to the range yet to confirm if its fixed.

At the big sandy shoot earlier this year the recoil spring started to wear out and I was getting failures to strip rounds,  so I switched the recoil springs out and started lubed the belts to get it running reliably again.  Then on the final night shoot it broke a firing pin.  

The Shrike is also much more sensitive to tight or dirty links, so if you get an ever get an overly tight link in the mix it can induce a fail to feed stoppage.  In comparison the 23e I have never had a failure to strip a round that I can remember.

In terms of 55gr M193 in the full size MM23e there are plenty of folks who have reported no issues with the full legnth barrel.  My 23ek will actually run 55gr with a suppressor attached as well which is basically just adding backpressure like the longer barrels do.   However, the 23e is sort of a pain to attach a suppressor as basically no suppressor quick detach mounts will slide through the opening in barrel shroud.  I have been meaning to order another barrel threaded 1/2x28 so I can put an A2 birdcage on it and use my SWR Renegade on it.

Cost


The Shrike/MCR is a fun range toy where the 23e is really a factory designed from the ground up GPMG.   The MM23e is an expensive gun.  You are looking at $15K just for the semi-auto host once you add in the cost of an optic rail, belt box, front grip, pictogram lower, etc.  The K variant adds another grand or two on top of what the standard full size runs.

The 23e is definitely a better engineered gun in my estimation and will have a longer lifespan being built out of 100% beefy steel components.  The question is really if you are in the business of comparing dollars to grins is the 23ek four times “as much fun”  at $16K vs. $4K for a Shrike/MCR.  I personally don’t think so, but then again the hobby of collecting transferable machineguns is pretty absurd if you are looking at it from a  purely economics perspective.  


Ultimately I enjoy them both and they have different pros/cons/quirks.    If you don’t want to spend $15K+ on a 23e semi-host the Shrike/MCR is a good value for $4K.   Shrike parts while expensive compared to normal AR/M16 parts (on the parts that don’t interchange)  are certainly much cheaper than 23e parts.  

Just awesome read and wealth of information.
I just purchased MCR belt-fed based on you guys input.
Planning to pick up Carlos' HK23EK pretty soon... heard that they're well-made gun.

Jbntex, any issue with Ares MCR & LL use?
I've heard that LL isn't good with piston AR15... I'm wondering whether ARES cause any additional stress to LL.

How did you cut the receiver magwell area and attached the saw box?
Is it possible for you to share the modification process & some close up pic?
Now, I've a small milling machine and would like to try it.

What a fantastic looking ARES belt-fed you've up there.... probably one of the best looking ARES setups I've seen so far.  

The receiver was made from a Tactical Machining Single Shot Lower.

Here is a pic of a rough sketch I made of the layout before the receiver and adapter went under the knife.



I also TIG welded over the selector markings (safe/fire) and re-engraving HK picto style engravings.

I also added an internal manual Bolt Hold Open Lever.  Think of it like a Magpul BAD lever but internal to the receiver.  The small silver pin you push up with your trigger finger and pull the bolt back with your left hand.   One of the issues with the Shrike is its hard to lock the bolt back manually as you need one hand on the grip, one hand on the charging handle, and then a 3rd hand to manually press the BHO on the side of the receiver.



Here is  a pic of the other side of the receiver where its not obscured by the belt.



If I was to do the project again I would probably just start with a zero percent forging and cut from there.   I thought that starting with a single shot receiver would save me a bunch of time but at the end of the day it was probably a wash time-wise as there isn't enough meat on the single shot receiver to cut the saw box cutout so I ended up having to graft material on vs. just starting with a 0% receiver.  Ideally if you could find an 80% with the magwell unbroached that would be the best starting point option.

I have no issues with the RLL with this setup.  However, I run a link protector on it (like a KNS but of my own design) that keeps the stress off critical portions of the link itself.  My personal take is that pistol caliber uppers are harder on links than any rotating bolt style upper would be.

WOW! just awesome info!
Now, I purchased MCR based on you & fellow member's input, I look forward to do some work & fine turning the upper.
Thank you so much for sharing your detailed pic and expert knowledge!  
True asset to NFA community!

did this as well



you have to remove a small amount from the lower but its really needed with the side charger. This is a early ghetto mod, but it literally cost nothing and take a few minutes. I now use 1/8 round stock vs the beat up metal in the original. it also keeps the finger to the side

Very interesting mod...
Could you show us the top view and more close up view of the modification?
Is it really necessary for side charger MCR upper?
thanks!

Very interesting... since MCR has side charging handle this might be a necessary accessory to add.
Is this only mfg produce this type of device?

It wasnt possible. The new charginghandle can't be used in the old style receiver.

Also what noone talks about is the older charging handed didnt break from typical use.

They didnt break when charging or clearing a jam. The receiver wears out or some alignment issue with the oprod causes it to break while firing..
Ive "mortared"  jams many times with my original setup and never broke the charging handle.

I was talking about the steel chamber ramp/insert whatever you want to call it, not the CH Ive had no probs with mine

I think its needed on all ARs IMO. Its needed on the MCR since you have the wider upper and the belt cover the side where you release the bolt.

I posted a tutorial but it got bad reviews since it was so ghetto and involved a dremmel, but its fully fuctional

basically you extend the slot for the BHO all the way to the side, you will also have to remove some of the fence





This is the "refined version. I used 1/8 cold rolled steel. Basically you remove 1/8 of material form the bottom of the BHO ( i bevel the edges) weld the rod to the bottom, grind smooth, Then just bend the rod to miss the upper reciever (slight bend down) and make as long as you want. It will be under the dust cover so its protected.

 

exactly but I built mine before I heard of them. Plus 50 bucks for a piece of metal that you can make for free.

notice how they dont have a dust cover, theirs sticks out too far.

Seems like an ADM, Mega or AXTS ambi lower would work really well with these.

Wow... awesome modification at almost nothing price!

Just received my new MCR complete rifle... very excited!
I tested the feed tray with a magnet, and indeed the magnet sticks to the feed tray conforming it's in fact 'steel feed tray.'
However, I still see very small portion of aluminium upper through the feed tray.
Does it look like latest gen of steel feed tray that supposed to protect the upper receiver from bullet tip damage during feeding?

i have the nib steel feed tray and it comes down further like the one on page one.

get the feed guide from mark even if you dont have problems

I want to do that to mine buts on a sbr lower.

I might just get a new lower and store the gun with the long barrel while it doesnt have the dias

Thanks to everyone at here I already brought one.

So, should I need to order a new steel tray from ARES?
I thought the metal tray is the improved design over the alminium one.

It appears they made a steel feed tray at some point with the older profile that doesn't come down as far to protect the receiver.

I would just get the Mark Genovese top cover insert and call it a day.  The NIB feed trays are like $600ish which is a lot of money to throw at a feed tray to protect the receiver when the top cover insert will do the same thing (and probably do a better job) for $100.

At a minimum since its new, put the top cover insert in and then monitor for an signs of anodizing wear.   Without any protection at all it still takes thousands of rounds to wear the receiver ramp to the point that bullets will start to get hung up.

Did yours come with the steel insert, the beefier charging handle, and/or the improved rear takedown lug?

Double Tap

Im amazed they wait so long to put it in. If i was buying one i would definitely want the latest ones not the new old stock thats all over the internet To save maybe $200 it seems like a no brainer.

I guess it only matter if you plan on firing it a lot.

I wated to mention i have the phosphate feedtray with almost 70k rds on it. Its gettin pretty worn now and waiting to see if it accelerates towards the end of its life. If i had to guess ill be replaceing it in another 40-50k.

Which i think is a pretty resonable life expectancy. I can't image the aluminium one lasting very long

To be honest with you... I've no idea what specific area to identify new steel insert or beefed up rear lug area.
If you guys need different angel, then please let me know.

BTW, do I have one with new updated parts such as steel insert, side charging handle & rear take down lug?
Is this H3 buffer that I have in the pic? It's ARES complete rifle version.
How do you tell whether you've self-regulating barrel or adjustable barrel and pros & cons of owning each?
thanks

You dont have the steel insert, which also means and you can see in the photo you have the old style charging handle.
The rear lug on your receiver is the same as the current version.. its not larger or small just machined differently to avoid this undercut that " may" have been a problem.

As far as adjustable and self regulating barrels. I dont see how anyone could want the self regulating barrel.
You can tell because you can adjust it. Look where your've gaspiston is located and see if you can turn that cap with a hole in it while depressing the small detent on. This is all right next to your front sight.
I cant tell from the picture.

Adjustable lets you tune for different ammo or a suppressor atleast more so than a self regulating barrel and playing with spring and buffers

Can you take a photo of the white writing on the side of your charging handle?ive never seen that. Or is that some kind of barcode?

Edit i was trying post up some photo of mine but cant find them.. and i dont mean to make it out like the newest ones(that i know of) are the holy grail of shrikes. Only time will tell how long mine will last.

Does anyone have ARES with full-stock & MG32 spring? if so, may I see some pic?
What's the purpose of Aluminium buffer spacer that came from the ARES? just can't figure out its purpose.

Do I have to flip up the charging handle once I cocked the hammer and prior to the shooting?
Also, do I really need to polish the used M27 links in the Brass Tumbler to remove parkerized finish for reliable feeding?

I'm attending a local machinegun shoot at this Sat and It looks like I won't be able to get the Mark Genovese's feed ramp insert on time.
Is it still safe to fire w/ old feeding tray design w/o Mark's feed ramp insert? I'm more cornering about reliability or constant jamming.

What's the proper way to break-in ARES upper?
The manual said I have to load up 10rds into the mags during the break-in period.

I'm also interested in hearing about MG34 spring setups.  Those always sounded pretty interesting.  I've wondered if you could use an MG34 spring with an A5 buffer/buffer tube.