I'm looking to purchase a RR.  I have found a SGW/Oly/Palmetto State that appears to be billet.  What is the general consensus on these?  Are the more or less desirable than a typical Oly/SGW forged?  Is there anything specific to look out for?

Chris

All the earliest SGW guns were machined from bar stock, iirc.  That does make them more rare than most, but probably less desirable except to a very thorough collector, owing to the sometimes rough finish.  Like all the early Oly guns, they were often slightly out of spec, so one that's already been sent off to be brought into spec and refinished is probably more desirable to a shooter than a pristine early example.

Palmetto was not the same company as the current Palmetto State Arms.  I handled and shot a friend's Palmetto AR back in the mid 1980s - seemed to work fine, but I did notice the rough receiver condition compared to an SP1.

Im not terribly familiar with billeted M16 RR but if you get a good deal it would be worth it, prob around $15k or less depending on condition would be a good deal. I would say in general they would be less desirable, while more rare i think people just are not as familiar with them and when people are spending that kind of money they like to know what they are buying.

Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values:
RLL $12-14k
RR AR15 Auto Conversion $15-18k
RR Colt M16A1 $20-26k
RDIAS $22-28k
RR Colt M16A2 $27-33k

Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.shootersdepot.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/

Website that tracks machine gun values:
http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/

I have never seen an early barstock milled Oly in person but there are plenty of pictures out there.

Overall my take based on the pics I have seen over the years is these are really rough with lots of rough milling marks and should be priced really well to make attractive.   I would definitely get a forged Oly Receiver over an early milled barstock receiver, even if it cost an extra couple thousand.

I have had a forged Oly for 10+ years and put tons of rounds downrange with it and still shoot IDPA style carbine every other month with it and it has never given me any issues.  Cosmetically it looks very similar to a M16 minus the rollmarks, where the barstock guns or EA cast receivers are obviously "different".  I liked it enough that I recently bought a second forged Oly.





Thread with a bunch of pics of a milled barstock Oly/Palmetto.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/587105_What_can_you_tell_me_about_SGW_preban_lowers_.html

My plan was to have the gun brought to spec (and re-anodized) regardless of which conversion I purchased.  It will be a shooter.

As for as 'desirability' I should have been more clear - are they more or less durable than forged?  I assume less - although it is an A2 style lower and the extra aluminum may help.

i almost bougth one just like yours. they look tough.

Ha, I agree although the looks aren't quite as important as function.  I want it to BE tough!

it was just 1500 above my budget.

My understanding is that they are not as tough/strong as a forged lower.   The material Oly used back then was pretty soft to begin with on these receivers and forged receivers are always inherently stronger as the forging process make the material stronger by sealing cracks/inclusion and breaking up impurities or crystalline structures that may be  inherent in the original billet.

How all this translates to the day to day life of an M16 lower, its hard to say but a forged lower should theoretically be stronger and have less change of a structural failure than a non-forged lower.

If I remember correctly, Oly considers all these early milled receivers "defective" and if sent in for work will automatically replace them (assuming they are still in semi-auto form).  They were even replacing transferable M16 variants about 10 years ago until the ATF told them to stop.

Edited to add....I have never heard of a Oly milled receiver failing so while they may not be as strong as a forged lower they may still be plenty strong enough for the application at hand.  Considering there are plastic AR lowers out there now, I can only imagine a 30 year old milled aluminum is still 10x as strong as a modern poly lower.

Does anyone know what the Oly billet lowers are made of?  Is it 6061-T6 or 7075-T6?

I spoke to a welder once his take one 6061 was that it was easy to weld softer maybe but for the application it works. 7075 is stronger buy difficult to weld. On the other hand were talking about billet bar stock with is stronger than a forging.

Captain Monty had one of these RRs in Thomasville when I visited in 2000 or so. His had egged out FCG holes. He told me he was going to have the holes fixed with inserts.

My old 1980s SGW BH15a1 billet semi auto lower was soft. I hardly used it and the holes egged out pronto.

I had sent it to Olyarms for refinishing long ago: they on their own replaced it with a new lower with the same serial number citing safety concerns.

I'd pass on any early billet SGW lower unless the holes are fixed.

Oh, bummer.  Doesn't look like this lower is for me.  Thanks.