Around March 2014, I decided to purchase an M16. I looked around in state for a while, but I wasn't having much luck, so I decided to look at the typical named dealers on Sturm, subguns, etc. Around May or so, I reached out to Tony_K who pointed me in the direction of a nice Colt 614 at a reputable vendor. I emailed the vendor, but he stated that the 614 had recently been pulled from his inventory as it was on a consignment, but withdrawn.

I continued to work with the vendor and describe my intentions to run several calibers, etc. He pointed me towards a conversion because he had them in stock and they would be just as good as a Colt without the several thousand dollar up charge for a rollmark. I took his advice, because he has a money back guarantee and was more than willing to answer any of my questions. I was leery, but he was helpful and that guarantee was worth the chance.

In June, I selected one of his conversions, but after getting a better look at it, I decided the markings on the conversion were just too light for my liking. I feared that a refinish would remove them entirely. He was agreeable to a change, and offered up another conversion or a Colt that would come in some time in the future. Bird in hand or bird to be named later? Well, I looked at pictures as intently as possible and because it was an Olympic Arms receiver, I reached out to M60Joe to see what likely repairs might be along with their cost. I reiterated my goals for this RR to the vendor, and with his assurances that this would meet my needs, I locked in a purchase. It was a great deal of money, so I dropped a down payment then gathered up the rest and sent it off. This was July 4th or so.

The F3 transfer was approved and it made it to my dealer in late August. This was pretty great since I was much closer to a new (to me) M16. I gathered up a few uppers and headed down to my dealers farm. The form 4 was filled out, and I wrote out a BATFE $200 check. I gave it a look over and then the fun began.... The pins were a little tight, but not a problem, right? My first upper didn't fit. uh oh... Second upper didn't fit. uh oh... The flush of anger and disappointment was rushing over me. BIG TIME. But, I was ok with starting the process because I could always cancel the Form 4 and get a refund. But if I was going to keep it and get it fixed, I didn't want to lose any time. I calmed down overnight and wrote an email to my vendor with a few options and what I thought was a fair course of action.

I laid out the costs associated with an M60Joe repair and refinish, but offered to pay for the refinish, I just wanted him to cover the repairs. Instead, I was met with a firm no, and some comments about the cost of repairs and so on and so on. He said I should send it back and he will refund my money. At this point, I sent the email to a few other people who had referred me to this vendor in the first place. If he was unwilling to stand behind his product, then I thought it fair to let those people see what his business policies were. While he started off a little rough in his email, he did soften a bit after my reply.

I replied stating that I didn't care to have his gunsmith repair the receiver, but rather, I wanted to stick with a known good commodity. Tony_K was kind enough to give me some advice and the receiver search was back on for a different RR. I talked to the vendor about other options and he said that he still had the Colt 614 mentioned earlier coming in and a Sendra that he expected in shortly.

I stayed in a holding pattern for a few weeks and then he told me the Sendra came in. The Sendra had a few odd marks /grinds, and while it looked good otherwise, but I was on the fence. When he stated he had another buyer and needed an answer from me, I decided to pass. I wasn't in love with the Sendra, and I wasn't sure about the conversions at this point, but that Colt still seemed to be calling my name. We talked a bit more and I was really leaning towards an additional 3k for the Colt. I was ready to lock in there, cancel the form 4, start a form 3 back to him, and then he said "I can't give it to you for that price anymore. The cost has gone up. You can't touch these for less than 21 right now." WHAT? We had just had conversations where 19 was an acceptable price. But he stated that the cost had gone up because the market value had steadily been rising. This was a disheartening thing to hear because the rifle hadn't changed in his internal cost. But whatever, his business, his rules, live and learn. I AM NOT COMMENTING ON HIS PRACTICES, ONLY MY DISAPPOINTMENT IN HIS STANCE. Please note the difference here.

Now, I needed to know what the REAL cost of the Frankford Arsenal conversion repair was going to be. I sent some pics to M60Joe and to Victor at USAnodizing for a quick assessment. They both came back with encouraging words that this wouldn't be a problem, and they can both work their magic. I had my dealer send it to M60Joe to evaluate and give me an idea on the extent of the issues. He threw it in the machine and determined that the top deck and radius needed to be taken in a little, the space between the front lugs needed machined because the uppers lug was rubbing/interfering, and the mag well needed a little loving - not bad at all. What the hell, let's do it. I had him clean it up and that made my decision that I can't return it. But, I have a receiver that is now in spec, fits a shrike (tight tolerances from what I have heard), and my form 4 has been in process for a few months now.

M60Joe was great through the whole process. It's refreshing to find a vendor/gunsmith who really makes a great efforts to communicate, send pictures, talk about costs, decision points, AND turn it around in such a short period of time. I know you all know his level of attention to detail, but until you experience it, I dunno... just nice to deal with. No phone calls though, only email. Worked out great in my experience, and there was never a question about what did he say, what did I say. It was all documented.

I wrote the vendor an email and explained that I would be keeping the RR. After all, I had it repaired and brought into spec. I expect to see it back at my dealer soon, and hopefully, off to Victor at USAnodizing shortly after that. I plan to spend a little time at my dealer's place going over the receiver, testing various uppers, and finally and smoothing out any flaws before being refinished.

As far as the Colt 614, at 3k over the cost of the conversion RR, I was ready to jump in with both feet if only to avoid frustration. With the cost at 5k over what I already had into it, well... not interested in that. I wanted a shooter and not a collector's piece.

Pics:
As I received it
Front:


Top:


Lugs:

Rear:


Some mid process pics from M60Joe (part of that communication I mentioned)



I'll have more pics as this progresses


tl;dr version:
I got a conversion but it was out of spec
I had it repaired my M60Joe and that was awesome
I should get it back soon and do function tests
Then I'll send it to Victor at USAnodizing for refinish

M60joe can refinish it as well. I had him do my colt sporter, looked great. No need to do multiple shipping to different places. I figure the less time it's in a shippers hands the better. YMMV.

Yes, but he does not do hard coat anodize which I would like to have done on this one going forward. I think it provides a good base for protection and wear. To be fair though, I haven't seen an abrasion comparison between molycote and anodize.

Interesting and informative post, thank you for sharing the process and decision points.  Awesome to think there will be one more fully in spec RR out there for the community to enjoy in the future.

I have the exact Frankfort Arsenal lower, my lower shows the same witness marks on your first couple photos, I've used 2 colt and a BCM uppers all 3 fit with no issues at all, BTW no issues with plastic mags either.
I also have a Gen 5 shrike that wouldn't fit at all, the front lug on that upper is huge, I ended up filing the front lug of that upper to fit.
I've been on the fence post to send mine up to M60joe, what was their lead-time and a ruff dollar amount?
JR

What was the cost for labor from M60Joe?

the sad thing is that the dealers have us by the ball s sometimes. im almost certain that my rr lower will be the same. i wish some of these dealers would take time to shoot these weapons and not let the buyer find out after. i have talked to some dealers before and when i told them that olympics had spec issues the acted like the quality was the same as the price.

Every receiver is different, but my costs were $186 to mill the top deck and radius and another $115 for the mag well. $301 Total Not sure why it was 186 vs 185, but I didn't question it. I was happy it was fixable.

Tag for the final product!   I am sure you will have fun once you get it back.

Thanks, I'm curious about sending mine for magwell.

I have a Frankford Arsenal Oly Conversion as well. The only issue i have is the rear take down pin is very tight, it takes a brass hammer and punch to get it started. other than that no issue, all mags including pmags fit well, good spacing between upper and lower, all around good rifle for $5-10k less than a Colt A1/A2.

I think that you will possibly find some wear marks on the top deck of the receiver. But your point that the rear takes a brass hammer to drive the pin says that it has issues. I could drive mine with a hammer too, but expensive aluminum shouldn't have a hammer force to drive pins. They should seat as intended. The rear pin being tight is likely due to improper spacing up front OR the rear radius out of spec OR a combination of the 2.

Agreed, its not perfect but at a fraction of the cost of a Colt it gets the job done. One of these days i will have a competent gunsmith fix whatever issue is causing the rear pin to be so tight. I think M60joe lives in Ohio so maybe i will make a road trip some weekend and drop it off.

Or i can just be lazy and take a file to the rear pin hole in the upper receiver. That would work for right now as i keep the same mk18 upper on it 99% of the time, but if ever get funds for other uppers, like a shrike i would be back to the same problem.

I too have one of these out-of-spec beasts.  I have posted here before describing it's shortcomings.  But just for a laugh, here is a short rundown:

1) Rear takedown pin hole does not line up with any Upper receiver I have tried (except the Oly upper that came with it).  I did get a PSA upper that just barely fits. All I have to do is break through the hardcoat on the back of the rear takedown pin hole in the upper with a round file, and it will go together.

2) The auto sear will not trip reliably when you used the Oly upper.  The previous owner had the auto sear tigged up higher, so it functions correctly.  Interestingly, if you install a GI spec auto-sear, while the Oly upper will not allow the bolt carrier to trip the sear, if you install another upper, the standard sear works fine.

3) The magazine catch slot is not deep enough.  When I got the receiver, mags would pop out every once and a while.  I had the mag catch tigged up so it sticks into the magazines a bit farther, and it works fine.

4) The magazine well itself is VERY loose.  Any magazine you put in it flops around like a fish, but it has never stopped it from feeding.

5) EVER pin hole is a bit oversized.

About the only thing that really bothers me is the mis-alignment of the rear takedown pin.  I have actually sold a couple of higher quality uppers I had because I couldn't bring myself to file the pin hole.  I just need to shop for some more blems to butcher!

Thanks for the input.
I was thinking about buying those bastards but might want to stick with Colt or something.

All this having been said, it only cost me $800 as a complete M16A1 setup, and has gone bang every time I pulled the trigger!

Very informative post OP, thanks!!

SO how much were you in after all was said and done from start to finish.

In the interest of slowly gathering information and money to one day purchase a registered auto of some sort in the future.

Usually anywhere from a hundred to several hundred dollars to have a RR worked out and put to mil spec dimensions. Pretty insignificant when youre looking at a rifle thats $15-20k

The receiver arrived back at my dealer this week, and I went over to look it over and test fit some uppers before sending it off for anodize next week. They all fit well and look good on the lower. M60Joe did a great job of smoothing everything out and bringing it in spec. It really is starting to get to be a nice receiver!

For those who have expressed concern over buying one, or concerns over repair costs, I can say that if you want a shooter, you should not necessarily rule out a conversion. Certainly one that is in spec is going to be a better option, but the only work mine needed was a little milling off the top deck, radius, and magwell. My experience may not be yours, but so far it has worked out well and not terribly expensive. After repairs ($301) and anodize, I'm still in for less than what I see for prices on Sturm.

Good to know my rr is headed that way now.

I would love to send my lower off to get repaired, but I am a coward!  Not only is it a RR, it is a registered as an AW here in CT.  If something happened to it, I literally couldn't replace it!  Especially for the price I paid for it.

My Frankford/Oly RR is on the way to US Anodizing *right* now, so I'll update as it progresses. Ever closer, ever closer....

Are you just having the exposed aluminum anodized or are you having the whole lower re-anodized so its all matching?

I am going to have the receiver completely reanodized.

I am slightly amused that my receiver took the long route to go what is ultimately just a few miles. I think my dealer and USAnodizing are roughly 10 miles apart, but 2 different post offices. Nice to see overnight delivery working out as it should. I mean, why doesn't this happen to a shitty sweater instead of a transferable RR?

December 4, 2014 , 11:22 am              Delivered, In/At Mailbox                 AMISSVILLE, VA 20106

Your item was delivered in or at the mailbox at 11:22 am on December 4, 2014 in AMISSVILLE, VA 20106.

December 4, 2014 , 8:13 am                Received at Post Office                AMISSVILLE, VA 20106
December 3, 2014 , 10:21 am              Forwarded                                    STERLING, VA
December 3, 2014 , 10:18 am              Arrived at USPS Facility                STERLING, VA 20165
December 3, 2014 , 9:13 am                Arrived at Post Office                   STERLING, VA 20165
December 2, 2014 , 5:31 am                Departed USPS Facility                  LINTHICUM HEIGHTS, MD 21090
December 2, 2014 , 2:56 am                Arrived at USPS Origin Facility      LINTHICUM HEIGHTS, MD 21090
December 1, 2014 , 2:58 am                Departed USPS Origin Facility       BALTIMORE, MD 21233
November 30, 2014 , 11:16 pm            Arrived at USPS Origin Facility      BALTIMORE, MD 21233
November 29, 2014 , 2:59 am              Departed USPS Origin Facility       LINTHICUM HEIGHTS, MD 21090
November 29, 2014 , 2:56 am              Arrived at USPS Origin Facility      LINTHICUM HEIGHTS, MD 21090
November 28, 2014 , 10:24 pm            Departed USPS Origin Facility       MERRIFIELD, VA 22081
November 28, 2014 , 10:21 pm            Arrived at USPS Origin Facility      MERRIFIELD, VA 22081
November 28, 2014 , 3:14 pm              Acceptance                                   RIXEYVILLE, VA 22737  

But it's there and Victor said it should be perfect once finished. By my request, he is also happy to wait until after the holidays to ship it back. I'd rather avoid this experience again.

Why didn't he just drop it off in person, gas is cheaper than postage and insurance.

It was against the policies of USAnodizing. Believe me, we looked into it.

I just got word that my stamp is back :) As soon as it gets back from USAnodizing, it's all mine. Looks like ~3.5 months for an application and stamp returned door to door.

Just awesome!

Yes you can. You would have to pay for it but we can buy machine guns all day long as they are preban. What you can't buy is a BX25 mag! It's for the chirren

http://youtu.be/0si6wsZWn6g

Well, another machine gun :)

I asked Victor at USAnodizing to take pictures of the receiver during the process, and he was kind enough to do so. He did a great job with smoothing out the blemishes he could while also doing a fairly in depth pictorial of my receiver.

Not everyone gets to see their RR lower in the raw...  Finished pics coming soon.

Very neat!

Very cool pictures!!!

Ok, these are the finished product and the end of this thread. Hopefully, I have done well documenting the process from start to finish. Thanks again (in no particular order) to: David Spiwak, Tony_K, Immortal Arms, M60Joe, and Victor at USAnodizing.

David Spiwak was the vendor and was very helpful in many ways.
Tony_K was very helpful with lots of great advice and always willing to pick up the phone for a quick chat
M60Joe did a great job with the repairs and bringing it into spec.
Mark at Immortal Arms was incredibly helpful and did way more than just give room in his safe.
Victor is local and did an incredible job (above and beyond) to help me finish this up. The anodize is PERFECT, and I'll use his services again, I'm sure.

Anyway, thanks all

Beautiful!
Victor is awesome and yes his work is top notch.
Wish David would have sent mine there before I bought it too but I went through M60Joe too and he certainly knows his stuff. Anyway congrats and now go enjoy it!!

Congrats! Nice gun. Now go enjoy it!!

Can't tell from the pics.  Did you loose any definition on the roll marks after the lower was re-anodized?

Sounds like I will be following your footsteps with my Olympic from David once it gets here

The difference is really the thickness of the anodize film. The milspec used today is ever so slightly thicker than what was on it before. However, the markings are still there and visible, but they do not pop out unless you oil it. Still quite visible, but not as much.

Cool pics. Victor sent me the same in the white photos when he refinished my M16.

Just sent an e-mail to M60 Joe. My SAW-15 conversion on an Oly receiver arrived at my dealer a couple of days ago. No other uppers will fit on it properly. The rear radius seems to be off and the upper it came with had to be ground to fit. Thanks to this thread, I knew what to expect. I am still excited though. Any tips would be appreciated







I would like to see if I could get these "rack numbers" removed and  it not look to obvious that something was there

I'm glad this thread helped - that was 100% the intent. I felt like there was no complete picture of what to expect along the way, so I documented the process as best I could. I can't speak for other people/companies who provide similar services, I can only give my experiences with the people involved along the way. There are plenty of other good smiths out there, but Joe was excellent in both communication and service. The same can be said for Victor. I am actually preparing another project to go his way in the near future.

Delta, can you see any anodize wear along the top deck? I think you're right that the top deck needs to be milled and the radius needs some rework, but Joe can fix it. Then you just need to decide how you want to get it refinished. My choice was for longevity and protection. Joe can also send it out to be redone from his place, so you could get it returned to your dealer in 100% ready condition while you wait the 3-4 months for the stamp to come back.

When you send it to a gunsmith have them work on any of the other common issues. I see your lower like mine has excess welding around the trigger guard, mine had some on the front of the mag well and the arch at the back of the gun where the web of your hand rests had some sharp corners which needed to be sanded down. When its all finished a non-colt conversion can come back looking as good if not better than a colt at a significantly reduced price. Be sure to document the work as proof of the work will increase the value of your RR as the next buyer will realize he is buying a in spec rifle thats shootable the day they pick it up.

Nicely done write up.  Congrats on a cool weapon.  

I wrote to M60 Joe last Friday and he gave me a quick run down. I was hoping to go and shoot it first, like today, but it is snowing here in NC and things go to shit when the white stuff starts flying around here. I have plenty of time to send it to him while waiting on my form 4. I did see that he offers to send it out himself now for anodizing. I am going to have him completely go through it. No need in half-assing it. Now to come up with some cash to pay him.......

Those are forging seams. Plenty of factory Colt M16s (every one I've ever seen) have this as well, but it is usually confined to the area surrounding the trigger. It is purely aesthetic and I would leave it be. The area above the rear of the pistol grip has the seam milled away, which is really the only area that could realistically cause discomfort when shooting.

I'm considering M60Joe for small pin conversion on my SP1 as well as filling in and re-engraving Safe/Semi/Auto.  

My original finish is nearly perfect and the lower functions fine.  My changes are simply a 'want' and not a 'need'.

My dilemma is how to finish the lower.  I'm cautious of the moly coating that M60Joe applies.  I don't want it to chip off and end up causing more problems than I'm solving.

Anyone have first hand experience with the airburshed moly coating m60joe provides?