LL welded to RDIAS.

Talk about ROI...wonder what happens when ATF wants pics too.

Link


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429169079

I posted a wtb add on sturm for a rdias. The guy who owns that emailed me those pics.

You would think Frank's would know a thing or two about these.

By the ad it seems like Frank may have even bought it out right.

Only 10% down....

I wonder what ATF would say about it.  Considering they determined the M11's converted to SAW's were a no go, their is a good chance they would consider it contraband.  On the other hand it was a legal machinegun conversion part for AR-15's pre-1986, and it's still just a conversion part for AR-15's.  Were the original markings destroyed during conversion?        
 

Don't let the ad fool you. He broker a lot of stuff and in my case wasn't forthcoming that the item was not in his possession.

I hope nobody bids on this fine piece of contraband.

I was offered one of these for sale many years ago and the one I saw was done to a much higher quality degree than the sorta hack-job this one is with the dremel slot and spot and grind welds method.

Either way I highly doubt this one would ever pass tech branch muster today, although there were rumor that a C2 many years ago (Tim Bixler I believe) got an approval letter for this type of modification.  I have never seen the letter so it may as well just be rumor.

Whoever buys (if somebody buys it) this is taking a huge legal and financial risk and should get in writing from the ATF that this "repair" was kosher and the DIAS is not an illegal post sample.

The only other option I see for this is for a C2 to remove the lightning link bits, destroy the DIAS, and repair the LL back to its original status although the way it was cut the serial numbers and maker marks don't leave much room for welding as the "A" in AC, "S" in SWD, and "A" in GA have already been partially obliterated with the spot welds.

Either way not a good situation all around and while Frank has had some somewhat shady descriptions in the past (my favorite being the "all german" MK5K-N...that appeared to have no German parts buy maybe the mag) this one is pretty egregious, especially given the dollars involved and how obvious it is this didn't start out life as a DIAS.

Agreed, I wouldn't touch it without a significant discount and a letter from the ATF.  Even then you still have the risk that ATF would change their mind in the future.  



 

Wow.

I think the offer of only putting 10% down is telling.  If you were a dealer wouldn't  you rather face refunding a couple grand vice 20K+ when the transfer is denied?

It probably wouldn't be denied.  ATF never sees the part, just the paperwork for a conversion part that corresponds with a previously registered machine gun.



 

Recently the ATF has requested pictures on some transfers, especially on RDIAS and LL. Plus SWD RDIAS serial prefixes don't start with AC. That prefix was just for lightning links, otherwise known as Auto Connectors.

The big challenge is the ATF is now routinely asking for pictures of Drop in Auto Sears prior to approving the transfer.  Nobody knows 100% exactly "why" they are going this but the request do mention to have close ups taken of the "serial number area".   I would presume they are either building a photo library of previous C2s work to look for discrepancies in the future, are actively looking for discrepancies in unit to unit from the same MFG, or both.

Whether this units subsequent transfer from Frank falls into that unlucky "we need pics" category on this transfer or not...nobody knows.  Even if they gather pics on this transfer nobody really knows whether it is denied or not.    I guess worst case it would be denied and Frank would have to refund the purchasers  money.   Worst case for the buyer is it goes through this time and they go to sell it 5 years from now, get a pic request and its denied at that point.

While the pics in the Auction do clearly show what has happened, (which is a good thing) the description in writing and legal pitfalls are not confirmed as part of the auction.

When did they start requiring pictures?  I hadn't heard about that.  I assume it is fallout from M11 to SAW fiasco.        
 

It's been fairly recent. I've seen several reports about it on subguns in the past year or so.

FNG here, and I have no idea what this is all about. I'm not educated on these types of parts. What is the back story?

That is not a good sign that NFA Branch is asking for pics of Auto connectors or DIAS's.  It makes sense with the dumb ass-ery that has been going around with serial number switching - but a bad precedent since NFA branch has to submit the pics to Tech Branch for review - more delays and stupidity.

I know for a fact that SWD  made up a few of the DIAS before the 1986 cut off, but they did not look that one being auctioned.  A buddy was a class 3 dealer at the time and he got the little flyers from Wayne Daniels offering the connectors and the little bolt carrier tab that could screw onto the later Colt bolt carriers so the AC would work.

I ended up getting a auto connector in 1984 after reading about "the machinegun you could fit in your wallet" in Firepower magazine.  I bought what I thought was an Auto connector in Colt AR15 through shotgun news from a dealer who used to be in Northern Florida.

When the gun showed up it was actually a SWD registered DIAS married to what looked like an partially unfinished Colt M16A1 forging with all the parts on it (but no auto sear pin hole/no markings except serial number and still in the white.  The serial number started with SP and ended with initials.  My dealer bud called the person I bought the gun from, and he said that he was told that the gun came from Bob Miller, who used to run Frankfort Arsenal down in Ft Lauderdale back in the day and it was a "99% Colt M16" - whatever that was.  

When I came back from an overseas assignment, I looked over the gun, and decided to keep it.  - It only cost $700, less than the HK94's I wanted to have converted.

I ended up making friends with Bob Roy at Colts, and he looked at the lower and told me that it was a 80% finished receiver that had been milled but not roll marked.  He noted the forge codes (Harvey Aluminum).  He mentioned that there was an advanced Colt collector in florida who bought a bunch of parts from a former Colt engineer who left Colt Industries to sell components to Colt licensees like the Philippines and Korea....and I was told ended up being sued for passing technical data to them without permission.  I was shown the receiver production line in the old Colt plant, and there was a bunch of receivers like mine, all stacked up in bins waiting to be roll marked................made sense.  If you check the old American Riflemen online series, they show the new Colt plant and receivers for M4's being done.

The gun came from the "advanced" collector - Bob Miller, whose advanced collection was pictured in The Black Rifle and is mostly now in Reed Knights collection.   Bob is gone now, but I imagine that several of those type of guns are floating around.  Still waiting to see the GE Minigun I was offered in 1983 come up for sale.  It was a Vietnam era M134 without the data plate on the receiver, but a nicely engraved serial number that was someone's initials and quite obviously a SSN.  It was in a crate and came with a helicopter mount and ammo box.  The paperwork showed it was a Form 1 gun from Rhode Island, and it was registered as a "Electric Gatling Gun".    No signs of welds or rewat, but non Police could not own or register MG's back then so (?????) .  The whole crate with guns and extras was $8000 cash in 1983.  I ended up going to Lebanon, so I could not make the deal as I had the cash from selling my car..........................It ended up in Texas in 1990, so it is probably still hummming.

Stay safe!

SWD made both Auto Connectors ( Lightning Links ) and RDIAS. The LL uses a normal AR FCG and a Colt SP1 style carrier to cause the disconnect to be released as the bolt closes. All 700ish lightning links have an AC serial prefix.

The RDIAS replicates the function of a M-16 with a trip lever holding the hammer until it is released by the action of the closing M-16 carrier striking the trip and pivoting it forward. RDIAS require a M-16 FCG and carrier to function and the only mechanical difference between a RDIAS and a M-16 is that a RDIAS will catch the hammer even in semi auto, while a M-16 moves the auto sear out of engagement unless the selector is in the auto position.

That being said LL's seen to trend for 40-50% less than a RDIAS and some folks have transferred the serial from a LL to a RDIAS body in order to make their weapon more desirable. The only problem is this is illegal. Some time back a couple guys got caught welding M11/9 serial numbers onto M1919s and several other more desirable MG's. Those guys went to jail and we lost several transferable guns since they were now considered contraband.

I first started hearing about it a year ago or so.  there have been a handful of threads over on subguns with folks telling stories of pictures being required.  A quick search turned up this one from earlier this year.

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi?read=803598

The picture request is not consistent and nobody knows why but the general consensus it that it may have to do more with the Rodman, Goldstein, Greenberg, etc. case of serial numbers from MACs being swapped onto new production Thompsons and 1919s and registration descriptions altered over time via slowly modifying F3 transfers between themselves.

The two who went to trial over this (Rodman & Greenberg) were convicted and were sentenced to like 3 and 10 years respectively.  I think the rest of the crew plea bargained to reduced sentences and/or fines.

http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/verdict_rodman.pdf
http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/verdict_greenberg.pdf

SWD was a pretty bigtime maker of non-LE domestic sales machineguns in the early 1980s

They produced the AR-15 Auto Connector conversion device (a Max Atchisson invention, by the way), which looks like this:


It works in a different manner than the Drop-In Auto Sear conversion device.  The DIAS requires all regular full auto parts to be installed in the rifle, less the original, pinned-in GI auto sear, and then operates in a manner pretty much identical to the original full auto AR-10/AR-15 design, but just doesn't require the sear clearance or pin hole to be drilled in the host receiver.

The LL works with all semi-auto parts, specifically designed for the Colt SP1 model, and works by connecting the closing of the bolt carrier to the disconnector, and uses the disconnector as its auto sear.  This is the same method used in the M2 carbine and select-fire versions of the M14 rifle, so it's not some dodgy slam-fire scheme, just an alternate method of achieving full auto fire from an otherwise semi-auto version of a firearm.

Long around the turn of the century, LLs were going for $2000 or so, and DIAS were up to $5000 or more on the market of the time, so at least one C2 manufacturer got the idea that he could "repair" the LL conversion into the more desirable DIAS conversion, and proceeded to do so by cutting up the body of an LL and welding the chunks around and onto a piece of metal that they then machined into a DIAS body.  It is rumored that at least one C2 had a letter authorizing this modification, though I've never seen a copy of it.  Under current ATF guidelines such a radical modification of a machinegun into a different type of machinegun is considered to be making a new, post-86 machinegun and destroying the old, transferrable machinegun while doing so.  As a result, they are not transferrable to non-LE/non-SOT, and that's kind of a bad thing for its market value.

Anyway, there are a number of these so-called DIASes out there, and look like the pictures linked further up in this thread.  ATF is likely to reclassify them as post-86 machineguns if they ever become aware of what was done to the original auto connector, so any time one is transferred it's a dicey proposition as to whether it'll get flagged or go through.

Good ole frank.

Well at least he shut the auction down.

Damn... if the owner mills and destroys the DIAS, I would be interested in getting the remnants of the LL..

I could fix that.

*let me look into the legalities of reassembling the LL

My dealer had to send in digital pics of the link before they approved tranfer to me, this was probably 2012.

Me too I just got a RR and they would not approve it until they received pictures.

You have to be very careful with any of Frank's auctions.  I am not 100% sure if he either just sucks at proper auction listings or intentionally leaves out info.  Almost all of his auction descriptions are vague with shitty pictures.  I particularly remember the "Bushmaster M16" that was a cast EA receiver converted by BFI.  No where did the title or description mention EA and the pictures made it hard to see.  If you didn't know what you were looking at already you would have no clue that it wasn't as the title and description described.  If all his other auctions had good descriptions and pictures then I'd say it was intentional deception.  But when all his auctions are posted with horrible descriptions I don't know.  For most of the items he is only hurting himself as a decent description and good pictures would raise the sale price.

My main questions is what percentage of the metal in that RDAIS body is from the original LL?  Disregard the trip as you can make replacement trips.  If 100% of the body is made up of the original LL's material and you can still see the manufacturer's name and serial number then I don't really see a problem.  If those conditions are true, then it is a device for converting an AR15 type rifle to full auto both before and after and it is the exact same material both before and after.  But I don't think there is enough material in a LL to make the body of an RDIAS unfortunately.  Hopefully there is.  But don't get me wrong, if it was mine I'd never post pictures of it on the freaking internet and I would carry a tube of anal lube with me every where I took it just in case.

"We did not get the reputation as an outstanding dealer by accident "-hey guys I think were all forgetting what frank says
"

Does anyone have a morale duty to Inform atf on this.

This seller not frank will at some point try and sell it again.  Don't we have a duty to protect our friends in the nfa communitity?

The sn is known.  That's all atf needs.

Wouldn't it be justified to prevent someone from taking a very bad fall.

Do we help our own or eat our own? Meaning collectors.

The current owner would not be in legal trouble since atf would most likely rule to destroy it or ban all future transfers.... IMO.

Its the poor guy that buys it years from now that we should try and help.

On subguns I attempted to post this same idea and the sensors refused to allow its posting. They killed it.

IMO atf needs to be advised.

Oh trust me, I know. I've been posting for years for buyers beware and not trust him. He is shady at best. I can't believe he is as bad and misinformed about MG's as his listings make him out to be, but maybe he is.

Remember frank is not the owner. Only the broker.

I believe the owners provide the pictures most of the time and frank uses them.

Wow if I owned that Dias/LL (whatever it is) I would never bother selling it, basically just asking to have it confiscated by the ATF by transfer it, I would just take it to the grave.

On a side note a lot of franks auctions are sketchy. I was going to bid on what was advertised as a colt RR m16 but after contacting him I found out that it was actually a LL in a modern colt AR15....Seems a little to convenient to "accidentally" describe a $15-18k RLL as a $20-25 Colt RR

Dupe

Shipping a RDIAS uninsured in a regular envelope is pretty hard to forget.

ATF made my dealer send pictures of all my sterling tubes about 1.5 years ago.

Onlythebest mailed me my fnc sear by putting it in a white letter enevlope. No padding. No nothing. Metal was sticking out when it arrived.

Remember that it is wise to indicate on your form 4 that you attached a pic or page.

In the additional description block I added that a picture page was attached.

That provides a traceable history that atf has a pic on record.

Atf generally provides no receipt that you provided pics.

That Frank guy is either playing dumb or really doesn't know shit about anything he offers for sale. His reply on subguns in this matter pretty much affirms I would never buy a damn thing from him.

It is not a morale duty to possibly to strip someone of their rights, take their freedom and send them to federal prison for 10 years.

Please mind your own business regarding calling the cops on him


I am 100% sure that a possible buyer that is about to drop $20 grand will look into this issue.

Im glad you feel that way.

Tell that crap to the 10 or more people that bought beltfeds and such with M11/9 serial numbers.

They lost everything.

So......Its just a matter of if they are too stupid to know better then they deserve to have their money stolen from them?????

We can see what type of person you are.

ATF would most likely just destroy the item in this case or give the owner a opportunity to explain the situation and perhaps resolve the issue.

I wouldn't be 100% that they would. You would hope they would, but after working at a gun shop for the last seven years I can say with out a doubt more then 75% of the buyers don't know what it is they are buying. They believe whatever the dealer or seller tells them it is, and no amount of information can change that as they already spent the money and believe what they bought is what it was sold to them as. I saw a couple of MG's get transferred through that were wrong. Very wrong. But the buyers seemed happy with what they had. Didn't believe that something could be amiss, most said "well the ATF approved the paperwork, it must be good!"

That is probably the most ridiculous thing I have read in a tech forum.  Bottom line, someone broke the law when this thing was created unless they had prior authorization from the ATF. And if they had permission why not post the letter allowing the modification on the listing?

If the seller bought it in this configuration and surrenders it he will not be going to jail or loose any rights. Maybe he can recoup his funds civilly shut that is another discussion. However if the seller (not the dealer listing it) made this beast he broke the law and in trying to sell it he would have stolen money from the poor guy who bought it.

And as to your 100% guarantee that the prospective purchaser would have researched its pedigree, I completely disagree. The bidding on this was over 5K in just a couple hours despite threads not only here but on subguns, uzitalk, nfatalk and probably a couple more.

Since everyone is innocent until proven guilty and this is not a court of law, I'm going to hope the owner was an unwitting dupe. But don't forget that someone somewhere back in the life of this item broke the law and tried to cheat someone else out of their hard earned money. That guy deserves to get what's coming to him.

I'm not a fan of the NFA laws here, but I will comply with them despite my opinion that they are unconstitutional. However I don't think anyone can argue in favor of fraud and theft.

How do you know there wasn't a letter thirty years ago?

I'm curious as to whom the risk falls upon?

The buyer who last had it transferred into his name?

The last seller?

Where does financial recourse end?

Say buyer 1 bought two years ago, transferred it successfully and now decides to sue seller?

Seller bought it 30 years ago as is ans sold it as is.

Does the buyer from 2 years who get his 25k back?

The problem lies with determining who did the modification. You can bet if I bought this from a dealer I would expect my money back. If it was 2nd or third hand from an individual that would be much harder to resolve.

I feel bad for anyone that unwittingly purchased something like this.

Depends on what the court decided. Or who had the better lawyers.

You can't always assume the ATF is going to let someone slide on an issue. Possession is possession regardless who made it. And if the present owner is in possession of a post may unregistered machine gun then he is guilty of having such contraband. Sorry bud, is no amnesty by surrendering there is only a "maybe". And there is definitely no amnesty if you report him.

But since my post is stupid and all and you and xm15e2s feel the need to call the ATF on him, then by all means

Snitches get stitches.

So what is the damage?

Look at it like this.

The innocent seller1 sells and the ATF approves the transfer to innocent Buyer1/innocent Seller2.

Innocent Seller2 sells to Innocent Buyer2.  ATF approves the transfer.

Innocent Buyer2 waits a few years and then contact Innocent Seller2 and demands money back.

However, there is no damages.  Innocent Seller2 has not been damaged in any way until he suffers a loss.

And when he does suffer that loss i.e. seizure by the ATF which is the only way he has compensable damages.

I dont think there is anything other than an all or nothing deal.

Oh. My.....

The more I learn about MG's the more I dislike Frank. I see his auctions and MOST, are completely dishonest and deceptive.

If I ever want anything else I will call Ruben and get have him find it for me...