User Panel
Posted: 6/26/2015 11:04:19 AM EDT
Greetings,
Been doing some reading on FA Thompsons, with an eye towards possibly picking up a good shooter. From most of the sites I've visited, it appears that the ones made by Colt are the most expensive/desirable, then running the spectrum down to the "West Hurley" made guns being the least desirable (said to be made from lower-quality parts). So-- how realistic is it to purchase a West Hurley gun, then refit it with one of the many WW2 parts kits on the market today? The total cost #'s make this an attractive option-- if it works; not really sure about how interchangeable all the parts are, and/or how much gunsmithing/fitting will be necessary to make it run reliably. Input from those who have done something like this appreciated! SD |
|
I would say the M1A1 style Thompson is a very simple reliable weapon compared to the other Thompson's. The WH 1928 models seem to have more issues than the M1 models because of the more complicated action. I think if you grab a WH M1 or M1A1 Thompson you would be good. I'm sure replacing some parts, tinkering, you should be able to make it run. If you get a M1 Thompson it can be easily converted to a M1A1 version. The main difference is the M1 model has a free floating firing pin, while the M1A1 model has the firing pin directly apart of the bolt much like an UZI bolt.
|
|
If it's just a range toy who cares if it Jam every few hundred rounds.
Im not a Thompson SMG expert but if it's anything like the M16 market when you buy a colt you are paying a premium for the name and collectors value. My oly arms m16 (after some minor gun smithing work) is the exact same specs, weight, finish and just as reliable as a colt m16a1 but it's $10k less and prob $15k less than a colt m16a2, which has a insignificant amount of extra metal in a few spots for reinforcement. It's all about the rarity and the ability to say "oh it's a COLT!" when someone asks about your rifle. To the avg Joe a MG is MG but in the world of high dollar MG investors that roll mark means big bucks and respect from fellow collectors. If you're just going to take it out at the family summer reunion and shoot some watermelon with it there is no need for a colt |
|
It's quite common to retrofit WH 1928's with USGI parts.......but the big issue lies with the receiver.....
Many have the ramps for the blish lock cut incorrectly/out of spec, and there have been issues with cracking at the rear of the receivers (the old gunmachines speed bolt kits would tear up a WH in no time) Rebarreling a Thompson is not easy.....requires a special wrench, and you have to recut the bbl for the sight/compensator once it's torqued down... There are a handfull of quality Thompson smiths that can cure all ills a WH may have, but their wait list is current measured in years..... A WH M1 is a good shooter out of the box, as is any GI M1/M1A1 or Bridgeport/Savage '28 Colt 21's and '28 Overstamps are top of the collectible heap, but almost getting to valuable to shoot. Ring your original 21A bbl with a squib from a bad reload? thats a 5000.00 boo-boo |
|
|
View Quote damn id love a decent thompson for shooting, not collecting idc if its even FA or not....seems like either way, i cant afford it all that i find are the Kahr repro's which dont seem worth the $1K price tag |
|
Quoted:
damn id love a decent thompson for shooting, not collecting idc if its even FA or not....seems like either way, i cant afford it all that i find are the Kahr repro's which dont seem worth the $1K price tag View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
damn id love a decent thompson for shooting, not collecting idc if its even FA or not....seems like either way, i cant afford it all that i find are the Kahr repro's which dont seem worth the $1K price tag I have never shot one but think I would try it out at a range before investing that kind of cash into basically a one trick pony. |
|
I have never shot one but think I would try it out at a range before investing that kind of cash into basically a one trick pony. View Quote (1) Definitely shoot one before you put down the cash they go for. Different than most subguns. (2) There is a pretty decent .22 LR conversion available. (3) Machinegunboards.com has the best Thompson forum. Best of luck whatever you decide to pursue. |
|
The Thompson is an incredible gun.
From a historical standpoint, it's one of the very best collector items on the NFA list, if not the best. And it's a superbly designed weapon. There are basically three editions of thompsons made in the 1920s (Colt 21 and 28 models) made during WWII (Savage and AO 28 and M1 models) made during the 1970s (West Hurley 28 and M1 models) The west hurley guns were made in very low volume by small machine shops for Numrich and they are junky. The parts are way out of spec. You need to get a USGI kit and replace ALL of the west hurley parts. Also, the receiver needs to be checked and the out of spec dimensions need to be fixed. Then they're fine. The west hurley guns are shooters, they have no collector value and are not considered to be part of the original production of the gun. If I was given the choice between a WH 28 for $16k or a USGI M1 or M1A1 model for $20k, I would take the USGI gun without a moment's hesitation. Some collectors think of the M1 model as a downgrade, but it really wasn't. It's actually an upgrade but has less bells and whistles. I disagree with the notion that it's OK if an MG jams every 100 rounds. Any full auto gun or semi-auto gun that jams should be fixed or gotten rid of. You don't need that annoyance in your life. |
|
Go over to machinegunboards.com and check that website out.
There are thousands of posts there, lots of info |
|
To shoot, and avoid having to send your gun off to make it shootable, get a WW2 gun. They'll work out of the box and have heritage.
A WH needs inspected/work and innerd transplants to prevent self destruction. You might need a good bolt, but you might need a trigger frame too. A full redo by PK can run $4,000 including refinishing and internal metal work, and the line is 4 years long. One of the Andrewskis can do work quicker and for less. PK does fantastic work. I struggled with this, got in line at Diamond K in case I bought a WH, but ultimately went with a 1921 Colt because one popped up at a fair price (compared to auction, for the condition). I'm not going to shoot it much and I like a collectible gun. I have a M10 for blasting, waiting on a Lage upper. |
|
Quoted:
To shoot, and avoid having to send your gun off to make it shootable, get a WW2 gun. They'll work out of the box and have heritage. A WH needs inspected/work and innerd transplants to prevent self destruction. You might need a good bolt, but you might need a trigger frame too. A full redo by PK can run $4,000 including refinishing and internal metal work, and the line is 4 years long. One of the Andrewskis can do work quicker and for less. PK does fantastic work. I struggled with this, got in line at Diamond K in case I bought a WH, but ultimately went with a 1921 Colt because one popped up at a fair price (compared to auction, for the condition). I'm not going to shoot it much and I like a collectible gun. I have a M10 for blasting, waiting on a Lage upper. View Quote I didn't know you had a Thompson. When did you pick that up? |
|
3 or 4 months from now.
ATF just cashed the check. ;) I promise, this is my last MG... LOL... |
|
Faldoc pretty much nailed everything.
Pks wait is somewhere around five years now, plus another year to get your gun back once you send it in. But, he is the best. John Andrewski is right up there too. The West Hurley M1's are overall pretty good, but do have one peculiar trait: The magazine well is not cut quite as deep as a GI M1 pattern, and out of box they will sometimes not lock up on most magazines. Fortunately, this is an extremely easy fix. If you have enough skill, and you enjoy working on expensive irreplaceable items, you can even draw file the two 45 degree flats yourself, just a tiny bit, until the mags lock in. This assumes you have already changed out their cast magazine catch for a real GI catch. And you'll probably want to switch out their repro M1A1 bolt for a GI version. Best advice in this thread: Get on Machinegunboards if you have the slightest interest in a Thompson. |
|
|
|
Got to shoot a Thompson from the 20's.
Incredibly fun to shoot, zero recoil because of the weight and pistol cartridge. I don't know much aboit them, but best of luck OP. |
|
|
^ very cool Mauser!
That's the thing, a lot of guys say certain guns are one trick ponies, but not everyone is looking for a a bunch of options in one gun. The thompsons have HUGE history and owning one must feel pretty damn good. |
|
most machineguns are "one trick ponys"
that's not a consideration for me, I'm content to use guns as-issued what modular, easily reconfigured MGs are out there? pretty much just the M16 and MACs you can add some calibers and accessories to UZIs |
|
|
Go over to machinegunboards.com and check that website out. View Quote Yep, lots of good info on that board. I will say, though, that most of the posters there come down heavy on the "collector" side of the spectrum. And there's nothing wrong with that... but... After looking at the guns/prices that seem to be available now, and my current level of interest/$$$'s, I'm starting to think that an 'upgraded' West Hurley might make the most sense for me; e.g., maybe one like Spiwak is advertising on his web site-- http://davidspiwak.com/1928_(sn-1650A).html The other option for an out-of-the-box shooter seems to be an M1A1; but this one (Ruben) seems priced high retail-- http://dealernfa.com/shop/thompson-m1a1-u-s-prop-excellent-541906/ [and per those on MachineGunBoards, there's nothing special about it that warrants the steep price on that particular gun] most machineguns are "one trick ponys"
that's not a consideration for me, I'm content to use guns as-issued what modular, easily reconfigured MGs are out there? pretty much just the M16 and MACs you can add some calibers and accessories to UZIs View Quote However you phrase it, there's no doubt that a Thompson will be less 'configurable' than either an UZI, M16, or MAC. And, Thompsons are not commonly suppressed (although it's been done). But that said, I already have a few 'blaster' MG's, so picking up one with a more historical interest works for me. |
|
|
Quoted:
I'm waiting on this... Maybe 2-3 more months. http:// http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/faldoc/Thompson%20parts/photo%203_zpsbdoxflk9.jpg View Quote Nice looking 21A - Enjoy! |
|
Tons of info here: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/
My research showed the Bridgeport guns the better value. Colts the most expensive at 35 - 60 K, collector guns The West Hurleys are a crap shoot on getting one that works when you receive it, and how long it will work. They seem to be less reliable, the metal softer, and the machining not always correct. When I went to the Thompson boards, the general consensus was to send your WH to Paul Krogh, to have it reworked. I contacted Paul, this tends to be a $3500 and a year or two wait. I bought a Savage 1928A1 that had been refinished, no telling when since this gun has made in the early 40's. But it looks and runs good. Video |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm waiting on this... Maybe 2-3 more months. Is that a rebuilt and refinished West Hurley? 1921 Colt .................... No offense intended. I asked because that photo had been posted on Subguns in a West Hurley refinish thread. |
|
I love Thompson's and was dying to buy one. Then I rented 2 of them, a 1928 and a M1 to see which one I liked better.
I have to admit, after I shot them both, the thrill was gone and I bought other stuff instead. The Thompson's are very cool, Historic and awesome but shooting it was anti-climatic. Maybe the 21 would have been fun to shoot but the 21 prices are out of sight. I already had an M16 and a Uzi and which I liked shooting way more. |
|
Quoted:
I love Thompson's and was dying to buy one. Then I rented 2 of them, a 1928 and a M1 to see which one I liked better. I have to admit, after I shot them both, the thrill was gone and I bought other stuff instead. The Thompson's are very cool, Historic and awesome but shooting it was anti-climatic. Maybe the 21 would have been fun to shoot but the 21 prices are out of sight. I already had an M16 and a Uzi and which I liked shooting way more. View Quote I have heard this from a lot of people. Basically its a great looking gun and a piece of history but not a shooter. Most people get bored with them very quickly. There is a gun range about an hour away from me that rents a handful of full autos, everytime im there i want to rent it, i should just do it and scratch that Thompson Itch |
|
Quoted:
I have heard this from a lot of people. Basically its a great looking gun and a piece of history but not a shooter. Most people get bored with them very quickly. There is a gun range about an hour away from me that rents a handful of full autos, everytime im there i want to rent it, i should just do it and scratch that Thompson Itch View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I love Thompson's and was dying to buy one. Then I rented 2 of them, a 1928 and a M1 to see which one I liked better. I have to admit, after I shot them both, the thrill was gone and I bought other stuff instead. The Thompson's are very cool, Historic and awesome but shooting it was anti-climatic. Maybe the 21 would have been fun to shoot but the 21 prices are out of sight. I already had an M16 and a Uzi and which I liked shooting way more. I have heard this from a lot of people. Basically its a great looking gun and a piece of history but not a shooter. Most people get bored with them very quickly. There is a gun range about an hour away from me that rents a handful of full autos, everytime im there i want to rent it, i should just do it and scratch that Thompson Itch Glad I rented. I had actually sent a few buy attempts on Thompson's and got beat out by other people that jumped on them before I saw the ad. The one I wish I had gotten was amnesty registered Vet bring back. The old guy still had it and he was still alive. He wanted to sell it to somebody that would appreciate the story behind it. Missed that deal by just a few minutes. Amnesty registered Savage 28 that had been in his closet since the 40's for, get this, $5,800. Still hurts my feelings to this day. It had a great patina and the typical nicks and dings in the pictures. One of the pictures showed the old guy holding it. He said he killed a few japs with it too. |
|
|
Quoted:
If you can only get one FA then M16 is the ticket. But the Thompson 1928 is iconic, much history and never boring.I see lots of talk regarding the WH guns. But this one has always been a great shooter. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/DSC00268_zpsa6s6ujk0.jpg View Quote Its a great looking gun and if i had the cash to buy multiple MGs it would def be one i own but I could only afford one and felt the M16 could be upgraded and tinkered with providing decades worth of entertainment as i wont be able to afford any high dollar purchases until i retire and the kids are out of college, which is many years away. |
|
Thompson is one of the last machineguns on my list to get, including maybe a FAL and a 10/22.
Sure they are a one trick pony (save the 22lr kit) and are somewhat antiquated compared to say an M16, but carry a lot of weight from a historical perspective given their somewhat iconic status. I have contemplated trading off an Oly M16 toward a wartime 1928. If it was an even trade (M16 to 1928) it would do it today. However, I am probably going to have to put 8 to 12K in on top of that for a decent condition 1928, it gives me a bit of hesitation as I could trade the M16 close to even up for a FAL or a 10/22 with maybe some cash thrown in. |
|
If you've already enjoyed an M16 with all the different uppers you can stick on it, if you've had an M60 or Uzi, an HK sear with different hosts, then you start to look for something more than mag or belt dumps.
I've really wanted a Thompson for about 40 years, and it's now or never. It's a bucket list gun for me. Not for everyone. I don't intend to shoot it much, but it will be shot. There's something neat about a gun made by Colt in 1921, 94 years ago at the height of American manufacturing might, the first US submachine gun... Just look for anything made in 1921... Even a piece of paper currency. It's pure history... I've been digging up all the history I can, it's fun to get books, manuals, mags, drums, parts... A reworked WH is a good gun, just doesn't have the history I want. Just my 2 cents. |
|
Quoted:
I have heard this from a lot of people. Basically its a great looking gun and a piece of history but not a shooter. Most people get bored with them very quickly. There is a gun range about an hour away from me that rents a handful of full autos, everytime im there i want to rent it, i should just do it and scratch that Thompson Itch View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I love Thompson's and was dying to buy one. Then I rented 2 of them, a 1928 and a M1 to see which one I liked better. I have to admit, after I shot them both, the thrill was gone and I bought other stuff instead. The Thompson's are very cool, Historic and awesome but shooting it was anti-climatic. Maybe the 21 would have been fun to shoot but the 21 prices are out of sight. I already had an M16 and a Uzi and which I liked shooting way more. I have heard this from a lot of people. Basically its a great looking gun and a piece of history but not a shooter. Most people get bored with them very quickly. There is a gun range about an hour away from me that rents a handful of full autos, everytime im there i want to rent it, i should just do it and scratch that Thompson Itch ???? I've heard this from nobody ever The M16, UZI and Thompson are all completely different designs, but ultimately you are going to be shouldering an MG and firing it. I'm trying to picture how shooting an UZI or M16 would be more amusing than shooting a Thompson I've shot all three guns extensively, several thousand rounds each |
|
Quoted:
If you've already enjoyed an M16 with all the different uppers you can stick on it, if you've had an M60 or Uzi, an HK sear with different hosts, then you start to look for something more than mag or belt dumps. I've really wanted a Thompson for about 40 years, and it's now or never. It's a bucket list gun for me. Not for everyone. I don't intend to shoot it much, but it will be shot. There's something neat about a gun made by Colt in 1921, 94 years ago at the height of American manufacturing might, the first US submachine gun... Just look for anything made in 1921... Even a piece of paper currency. It's pure history... I've been digging up all the history I can, it's fun to get books, manuals, mags, drums, parts... A reworked WH is a good gun, just doesn't have the history I want. Just my 2 cents. View Quote Go for it I bought a Savage M1A1 just for the heck of it, it's my favorite gun I ever owned. the Thompson is a gun that they have written a number of history books about, it's a fascinating historical artifact from a gun collector's standpoint it just doesn't get any better and the gun points and shoots perfect |
|
"I'm trying to picture how shooting an UZI or M16 would be more amusing than shooting a Thompson"
As prior Thompson owner ('28 as well as M1A1) and current M16 and full size Uzi owner, it's not really fair to compare shooting experience between the three as the weight of the guns, the caliber of the ammo, and the geometry of the gun layout is so different. I do agree that I always experienced a bit of Schadenfreude watching a first time '28 Thompson shooter turn it into an anti-aircraft gun. |
|
I enjoy my Savage made M1 Thompson. If you get an M1A1 strongly consider replacing the bolt with the safer M1 version. The M1A1 has a fixed firing pin.
I got mine back when few were interested in the simplified M1 versions. The usual question was: "Does it take drums? No? That's too bad." It was all I could afford and even then it was a lot more than I paid for any firearm before. Now I wish I had bought 20 more of them. The .22lr conversion (Merle Bitikoffer (sp?)) made mine and it runs like it should. There is something hilarious about a 10 pound full auto .22. I call it a giggle machine. I remember showing my Thompson to my grandfather who served in the Pacific. He freaked and told me to throw the thing in the river. He had no idea you could legally own a full auto. |
|
|
This really has nothing to do with the OP's question, but the previous photos got me wondering....
Did the GI's in WWII know the "history" of the thompson by the time they were using them? What i mean is; did the soldiers know that the thompsons were used by gangsters as far back as the 20's? Was this common/public knowledge by the 40's? I know word didnt spread as easily and as fast back then, so I was wondering if by the 40's most people knew. Or were guys clueless to this information, and just thought it was a good combat firearm? |
|
Quoted:
Here is a parts kit of a 1928a1 Thompson submachine gun, made by Savage for Auto-Ordnance in the early 40s, sent to Russia, and stored there for more than 70 years, through a cold war, and finally sent back here to be bought by me. Unfortunately the receivers were either destroyed or cut up in the process of being demilled. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/faldoc/Thompson%20parts/IMG_3090_zps65a3fa9c.jpg View Quote Been following your posts on Machinegunboards. Great looking gun. That's a great looking parts kit. How long have you had it? Most of the ones available are pretty rough. |
|
Quoted:
Been following your posts on Machinegunboards. Great looking gun. That's a great looking parts kit. How long have you had it? Most of the ones available are pretty rough. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Here is a parts kit of a 1928a1 Thompson submachine gun, made by Savage for Auto-Ordnance in the early 40s, sent to Russia, and stored there for more than 70 years, through a cold war, and finally sent back here to be bought by me. Unfortunately the receivers were either destroyed or cut up in the process of being demilled. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/faldoc/Thompson%20parts/IMG_3090_zps65a3fa9c.jpg Been following your posts on Machinegunboards. Great looking gun. That's a great looking parts kit. How long have you had it? Most of the ones available are pretty rough. Got it last year from IMA, very expensive, though... I'm going to use parts of it while shooting the Colt, saves wear on those irreplaceable Colt parts. |
|
Nice kit you got there faldoc and you're right about the prices being expensive now. I'm glad I bought my two kits a few years ago when they first became available for MUCH less than they are now. Now I just have to get the Thompson.
|
|
The mg boards seem to have fair prices for Colts, when they pop up from time to time.
Expensive, but less than the auctions I've been looking into and researching. There's no cheap Colt Thompson. There's a WH on STG for $14k. Just be sure it's a steel receiver. That's the least I've seen for the 1928 style WH I've seen for a while. They're usually about $16k. It would need to be checked out, though. If I ever get a WH to shoot, I'd send it to Paul Krogh or John Andrewski and have it worked on so it doesn't tear itself up, and redone to spruce it up. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.