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Posted: 7/27/2016 11:52:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Probably because lead is so soft.
Steel ball bearings would penetrate body armor better |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 11:57:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably because lead is so soft. Steel ball bearings would penetrate body armor better To elaborate: Claymores are really a "fuck everything" kind of weapon. The ball bearings are pretty large so they don't need to deform to make big nasty wounds on people. The hardened steel rips through vehicles and equipment, killing and destroying pretty much everything. |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 11:59:31 AM EDT
[#3]
How much better? It doesn't take good armor to stop shrapnel. Conversely, would the use of lead balls increase the maximum effective range of the weapon?
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:02:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much better? It doesn't take good armor to stop shrapnel. Conversely, would the use of lead balls increase the maximum effective range of the weapon? Lead is denser than steel, therefore, for the same volume of projectiles, the lead will be heavier, accelerate slower, and travel shorter. ETA: A lot better. these projectiles are being propelled by C4. They're going fast as all hell. Something as soft as lead is going to deform tremendously at the slightest interference of their path. Result would be that it drops almost all the energy in the first obstacle it encounters. Sucks for that first guy, but the guy behind him may be ok. In addition, remember that there are hundreds of these ball bearings; the first guy is dead no matter what, assuming the mine was placed correctly. The goal then becomes not just destroying the 2D target, but penetrating deeper to anyone/anything that's behind it. 
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:05:34 PM EDT
[#5]
If the same projectile weight was used (instead of volume), would the result be greater range and less coverage density?
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:07:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Steel doesn't melt and evaporate when the C4 explodes. The original ball bearings were too small and fragmented (versus being pushed).
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:09:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the same projectile weight was used (instead of volume), would the result be greater range and less coverage density? You would get the same range and less coverage density because you have less material to cover the same target area. Also, see my above edit |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:10:13 PM EDT
[#8]
I wonder if lead would be so soft as to fragment and be less effective due to the super rapid exceleration from the C4. Im not an enginereer, where is Keith J when you need him...
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:10:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if lead would be so soft as to fragment and be less effective due to the super rapid exceleration from the C4. Im not an enginereer, where is Keith J when you need him... #FreeKeith_J |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:14:18 PM EDT
[#10]
IIRC the MILSPEC says the ball bearing are traveling 4000 fps
We functioned around 140 of em a few years back... pretty effective defoliant 
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:18:28 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm getting that the deformation of lead is a big problem both upon firing and upon the initial impact of each projectile. Resistance to the flash temperature also makes sense. I understand now why hardened steel was the best choice. Velocities with these weapons are so high, that nothing is really lost in terms of long-range performance. By the time velocity is reduced enough to limit effectiveness, the spread is so great that hits are unlikely. Lead shot would end up flying slower than steel in any case, due to initial deformation.
Thanks guys! |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:20:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Steel is harder and will pierce armor
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:24:13 PM EDT
[#13]
The 120mm M1028 Cannister round that the Abrams tank uses, is filled with Tungsten balls, not steel.
M1028 |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:29:29 PM EDT
[#14]
OK cool, thanks. I suppose foreign military canister shot is also commonly tungsten? Would depleted uranium be even better?
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:38:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK cool, thanks. I suppose foreign military canister shot is also commonly tungsten? Would depleted uranium be even better? I feel like DU would obviously work better, but to the point of diminishing returns with contamination and cost issues that would don't have with Tungsten. |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 12:44:16 PM EDT
[#16]
I agree.
Maybe tungsten canister shot isn't common among world militaries. According to this document, development of the M1028 didn't begin until around 2000, and it was in response to concerns of human wave attack by North Koreans. Looks like they experimented with several projectile materials and shapes. |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 1:45:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lead is denser than steel, therefore, for the same volume of projectiles, the lead will be heavier, accelerate slower, and travel shorter. ETA: A lot better. these projectiles are being propelled by C4. They're going fast as all hell. Something as soft as lead is going to deform tremendously at the slightest interference of their path. Result would be that it drops almost all the energy in the first obstacle it encounters. Sucks for that first guy, but the guy behind him may be ok. In addition, remember that there are hundreds of these ball bearings; the first guy is dead no matter what, assuming the mine was placed correctly. The goal then becomes not just destroying the 2D target, but penetrating deeper to anyone/anything that's behind it. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/70/65/48/706548c2845375da8d7ddff95bc7416c.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How much better? It doesn't take good armor to stop shrapnel. Conversely, would the use of lead balls increase the maximum effective range of the weapon? Lead is denser than steel, therefore, for the same volume of projectiles, the lead will be heavier, accelerate slower, and travel shorter. ETA: A lot better. these projectiles are being propelled by C4. They're going fast as all hell. Something as soft as lead is going to deform tremendously at the slightest interference of their path. Result would be that it drops almost all the energy in the first obstacle it encounters. Sucks for that first guy, but the guy behind him may be ok. In addition, remember that there are hundreds of these ball bearings; the first guy is dead no matter what, assuming the mine was placed correctly. The goal then becomes not just destroying the 2D target, but penetrating deeper to anyone/anything that's behind it. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/70/65/48/706548c2845375da8d7ddff95bc7416c.jpg |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 3:16:31 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm not finding the detailed results, but apparently this was all studied as part of the CIAP program about 6 years ago while researching a replacement for the M576 40mm cartridge. They refer to testing lead, steel, and tungsten shot.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayLandmarkBStephenSwann.pdf |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 3:45:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 120mm M1028 Cannister round that the Abrams tank uses, is filled with Tungsten balls, not steel. M1028 That's a lot of canned "Fuck You"... 
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Posted: 7/27/2016 3:56:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The 120mm M1028 Cannister round that the Abrams tank uses, is filled with Tungsten balls, not steel. M1028 That's a lot of canned "Fuck You"...  http://youtu.be/Cgn1nhUEgo8Wow. Did not know that. Learned something new. Riot control at its best! |
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Posted: 7/27/2016 4:02:39 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 7/28/2016 5:55:19 AM EDT
[#22]
As far as 120mm Can, I always liked our Beehive/ Beehive timed in the 105mm on the M60 series.
Flechettes are cool, & we could set them for use at extended range. |
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Posted: 7/29/2016 6:18:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't take good armor to stop shrapnel. It depends on the fragmentation. |
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Posted: 7/29/2016 7:02:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Probably because the shit's heavy as fuck, and steel works fine.
Also, I don't think you grasp just how hard claymores hit... lead wouldn't just get deformed, a lot of it would probably vaporize. ETA- 700 projectiles at almost 4k fps for the claymore. |
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Posted: 7/29/2016 10:32:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It depends on the fragmentation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It doesn't take good armor to stop shrapnel. It depends on the fragmentation. Madcap72, I really didn't until I read more about the velocity they generate and the effects of such rapid acceleration. I can easily see now why lead wasn't up to the task. I guess tungsten wasn't worth the extra cost and weight for a mine which is already highly effective. I'd like to play with some on a training range. They look fun, as long as you're not on the receiving end.  |
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Posted: 7/29/2016 1:00:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Human wave attack by the crazy north koreans . Screw the claymore .Thats what the M134 Minigun is for .
Think of the mess that would cause with multiple miniguns or bradleys with the chainguns firing . lol Wave attack only morons would attempt something like that commanded by some little fat turd lunitic dictator from N korea.As for steel ball bearings they fly faster and hurt more the lead . Claymores job is to rip everything to shreds that its facing and lead would deform or mushroom up in its target. |
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Posted: 7/29/2016 10:43:23 PM EDT
[#27]
if you want to stop human waves, Mk19s are what you seek.
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Posted: 7/29/2016 10:50:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Madcap72, I really didn't until I read more about the velocity they generate and the effects of such rapid acceleration. I can easily see now why lead wasn't up to the task. I guess tungsten wasn't worth the extra cost and weight for a mine which is already highly effective. I'd like to play with some on a training range. They look fun, as long as you're not on the receiving end. I didn't get to ever fire a live one, but in the Marines in SOI they would let each platoon pop one off for training. The things are straight up nasty. One thing I did get to make and fire off later (also training, just in the fleet), was a stick of C4 in a roll of barbed wire known as a beehive charge (at least to us). While not as directed or far reaching as a claymore they were vicious as well. |
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Posted: 8/8/2016 8:34:47 AM EDT
[#29]
It's like none if y'all were around for the switch from lead to steel for hunting waterfowl.
Lead is more dense, flies farther for same size, deforms more than steel. Lead splashes on metal targets. My swag is lead shot turns to liquid on top of C4 explosive. Hardened steel or tungsten is only option. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 3:22:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's like none if y'all were around for the switch from lead to steel for hunting waterfowl. Lead is more dense, flies farther for same size, deforms more than steel. Lead splashes on metal targets. My swag is lead shot turns to liquid on top of C4 explosive. Hardened steel or tungsten is only option. More like "aersolized liquid" or vaporized. The frag is moving about 1/3rd the pressure wave: C-4 21,000 fps so about 7,000 fps and then rapidly dying off. Hardened steel and tungsten can crack & shatter without a buffer, which within 50 feet isn't a biggie but the more jagged the terminal ballistics peter out right quick with shards. Certain steel BB's are used that deform but stay together and stay semi-spherical. ~Will |
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