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Posted: 9/28/2015 10:58:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I'm still exploring options for a home built m203 shotgun without the need for a stamp. What distinction does the ATF make between this being a legal 37mm shotgun if the shot-shells are hand loaded ammo. What if it were a blackpowder muzzle loading cannon that looked like a m203? Would it even need to be 18.5" long? Wonder if I could use it in blackpowder season while I squirrel/rabbit hunt with the m16a1 .22lr upper lol. Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. |
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Posted: 9/28/2015 11:56:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm still exploring options for a home built m203 shotgun without the need for a stamp. What distinction does the ATF make between this being a legal 37mm shotgun if the shot-shells are hand loaded ammo. What if it were a blackpowder muzzle loading cannon that looked like a m203? Would it even need to be 18.5" long? Wonder if I could use it in blackpowder season while I squirrel/rabbit hunt with the m16a1 .22lr upper lol. Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 3:58:32 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm still exploring options for a home built m203 shotgun without the need for a stamp. What distinction does the ATF make between this being a legal 37mm shotgun if the shot-shells are hand loaded ammo. What if it were a blackpowder muzzle loading cannon that looked like a m203? Would it even need to be 18.5" long? Wonder if I could use it in blackpowder season while I squirrel/rabbit hunt with the m16a1 .22lr upper lol. Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. What's the definition of semi fixed? |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 8:21:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm still exploring options for a home built m203 shotgun without the need for a stamp. What distinction does the ATF make between this being a legal 37mm shotgun if the shot-shells are hand loaded ammo. What if it were a blackpowder muzzle loading cannon that looked like a m203? Would it even need to be 18.5" long? Wonder if I could use it in blackpowder season while I squirrel/rabbit hunt with the m16a1 .22lr upper lol. Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. Oh my.... yes, you're absolutely right. I should not have said that without mentioning the requirement of fixed ammunition! Thank you for the correction. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 8:23:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the definition of semi fixed? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm still exploring options for a home built m203 shotgun without the need for a stamp. What distinction does the ATF make between this being a legal 37mm shotgun if the shot-shells are hand loaded ammo. What if it were a blackpowder muzzle loading cannon that looked like a m203? Would it even need to be 18.5" long? Wonder if I could use it in blackpowder season while I squirrel/rabbit hunt with the m16a1 .22lr upper lol. Is 37mm a sporting caliber when used with potentially anti-personnel ammunition? No, so any of said ammo owned with said gun makes the gun a DD. Muzzleloading? Legal, full stop. Even if it's built to use smokeless. Even if it's got a 1" barrel. Doesn't matter, not a gun Federally. Close. Muzzle loading and not using fixed or semi fixed ammo. A 60 mm mortar loads from the muzzle but still requires a stamp. The ammo is fixed into a round with modern ignition. What's the definition of semi fixed?  A small bore example would be using a .22 nail setting blank to launch a .224" bullet or .22 pellet. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 8:42:45 AM EDT
[#6]
Yes, anything that has the primer and propellant together is counted as fixed for the purposes of the law. Now, if you have the projectile(s) and powder together, and the primer and seal or no seal together, that's more like a perfectly legal non-NFA "bagger" type system. That would probably be the best way to go on this project, a 209 primer from the rear, a bag of powder and projectiles into the breech, some way of sealing it all together without having it be a fixed or semi-fixed cartridge.
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Posted: 9/29/2015 1:06:51 PM EDT
[#7]
I know what semi fixed is in reality, I was asking what sort of bass ackwards, dain brammaged legal definition does it have in the NFA?
For the mortar issue what if I drop aa toroidal shaped charge in the tube first (which seats around a firing pin spike) and then drop in the projectile with a primer on its ass? |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 1:42:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the mortar issue what if I drop aa toroidal shaped charge in the tube first (which seats around a firing pin spike) and then drop in the projectile with a primer on its ass? Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the mortar issue what if I drop aa toroidal shaped charge in the tube first (which seats around a firing pin spike) and then drop in the projectile with a primer on its ass? Originally Posted By https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.
NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition. 18 u.s.c 921(a)(4):
The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. From my reading of that, anything the ATF could consider "fixed" ammunition or a modern ignition system would be illegal in a modern mortar without DD paperwork. The Stokes type mortars all appear to be modern for the purposes of the NFA, although an external primer and firing system with the propellant and projectile dropped down the muzzle would appear to be legal. You'd have to ask the tech branch to be entirely certain. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 6:13:28 PM EDT
[#9]
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD.
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Posted: 9/29/2015 6:25:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD. Oh? Did the Attorney General find that you were going to only use it for said purposes? Very tricky punctuation in that section of law. Here, let me move just that section here: or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. That's all one clause. Preceding that excerpt was a semicolon. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 9:04:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh? Did the Attorney General find that you were going to only use it for said purposes? Very tricky punctuation in that section of law. Here, let me move just that section here: That's all one clause. Preceding that excerpt was a semicolon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD. Oh? Did the Attorney General find that you were going to only use it for said purposes? Very tricky punctuation in that section of law. Here, let me move just that section here: or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. That's all one clause. Preceding that excerpt was a semicolon. The "...or..." means that it is separate from the AG determining it is not likely to be used as a weapon. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 10:56:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The "...or..." means that it is separate from the AG determining it is not likely to be used as a weapon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD. Oh? Did the Attorney General find that you were going to only use it for said purposes? Very tricky punctuation in that section of law. Here, let me move just that section here: or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. That's all one clause. Preceding that excerpt was a semicolon. The "...or..." means that it is separate from the AG determining it is not likely to be used as a weapon. No, sure doesn't or everyone would have DDs without them being DDs. Here's the whole thing again, look where the semicolons are. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 9:28:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, sure doesn't or everyone would have DDs without them being DDs. Here's the whole thing again, look where the semicolons are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I want to buy a 20mm I intend to use solely for recreational purposes. No tax stamp, it isn't a DD. Oh? Did the Attorney General find that you were going to only use it for said purposes? Very tricky punctuation in that section of law. Here, let me move just that section here: That's all one clause. Preceding that excerpt was a semicolon. The "...or..." means that it is separate from the AG determining it is not likely to be used as a weapon. No, sure doesn't or everyone would have DDs without them being DDs. Here's the whole thing again, look where the semicolons are. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. I'm telling you, the plain english, including the semicolons you point out, is pointing out three final exceptions. I thought maybe I was mistaken, so now I have two guys at work I've shown it to (one with a degree in English, the other a lawyer) and they are both saying I appear to be correct. Am I taking crazy pills? Show me where I can get a title one (simple unbarrelled) 20mm reciever and I'll build a 20mm. Without a tax stamp. For recreational purposes. And I'll take it to the range. I'm happy to be the test case if you want to fund the rifle. |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 9:33:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Also...most DDs are manufactured as such. If a manufacturer licensed as a type 10 builds something as a DD, then it is implicitly not for recreational purposes only, or it wouldn't have been built as a DD. If I build a 14.5mm Rifle for recreational long range shooting, based loosely off the PTRS, but not for use as a weapon...it isn't NFA.
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Posted: 9/30/2015 10:40:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Here's an easier path, if you'd like to test your theory. Buy a LMT unbarreled title 1 M203 receiver, put a 40mm barrel on it but don't register as a DD. Then, according to what you believe is the correct interpretation of the law, it wouldn't be a DD so long as you use it for recreational purposes only.
That said, I disagree with your interpretation and believe you would be committing a felony in the above outlined scenario when installing a 40mm barrel if you didn't first file an F1 to make a DD or get direct approval from the Attorney General to have such a device for recreational purposes only. |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 7:03:55 PM EDT
[#16]
I would argue the M203 is a grenade launcher, not a rifle- so not the same. Words have meanings. My offer on the 20mm stands for anyone willing to pay for it.
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Posted: 10/25/2015 10:49:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Two ways of interpreting the statutory provision:
Interpretation 1: or any other device which:
the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. Interpretation 2: or any other device which the Attorney General finds:
is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. I would want to look at the legislative history. Even if it is clear that Interpretation 1 is correct, I would still be very hesitant. The government will argue Interpretation 2 and will probably win. The King does not take kindly to being challenged. |
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Posted: 10/26/2015 11:47:42 AM EDT
[#18]
The King does not take kindly to being challenged. Correct. Add to that the fact that any firearm with a bore .50 or larger is a DD unless specifically exempted or an antique within the very clear definitions... well, it's not a wise move to ignore the NFA, even less wise to do so and publicly make it known. |
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Posted: 10/26/2015 2:11:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct. Add to that the fact that any firearm with a bore .50 or larger is a DD unless specifically exempted or an antique within the very clear definitions... well, it's not a wise move to ignore the NFA, even less wise to do so and publicly make it known. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The King does not take kindly to being challenged. Correct. Add to that the fact that any firearm with a bore .50 or larger is a DD unless specifically exempted or an antique within the very clear definitions... well, it's not a wise move to ignore the NFA, even less wise to do so and publicly make it known. Nice slam (and a thinly veiled one at that) directed towards Rockhard13F. Yes, we get it already, you aren't happy that he intends to challenge the DD definition and build a 20mm rifle. Now take that shit back to the other thread. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1800968_I_am_going_to_build_a_20mm_rifle__and_I_m_not_going_to_ask_for_a_tax_stamp_.html&page=3&anc=56296911#i56296911 |
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Posted: 10/28/2015 5:42:14 PM EDT
[#20]
In regards to the Fixed, Semi-Fixed, and Bagger-type ammunition, What would the following picture be classified as?
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Posted: 11/28/2015 2:55:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Shotguns with bore greater than 0.500" are generally granted exemption to DD rules on sporting clause. Since the director deems sporting as hunting and federal migratory hunting regulations stipulate nothing larger than 10 gauge, you have some work.
Now, non-migratory bird hunting, say pigeons en masse? Some would think a 37mm shotgun would be unsporting. But if you get pleasure from not having tons of pigeon poop in your barn/property, why should the director say it isn't sporting? Now, another tack of approach would be light shot charges in a big bore have shorter shot strings and tighter patterns...long range pigeon shooting? Me likes it. |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 9:06:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotguns with bore greater than 0.500" are generally granted exemption to DD rules on sporting clause. Since the director deems sporting as hunting and federal migratory hunting regulations stipulate nothing larger than 10 gauge, you have some work. Now, non-migratory bird hunting, say pigeons en masse? Some would think a 37mm shotgun would be unsporting. But if you get pleasure from not having tons of pigeon poop in your barn/property, why should the director say it isn't sporting? Now, another tack of approach would be light shot charges in a big bore have shorter shot strings and tighter patterns...long range pigeon shooting? Me likes it. |
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