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Posted: 2/10/2015 2:56:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I have been following the thread on another board about these being picked up by the BATFE and I got my visit today. I ordered these from Ohio Ordnance Works some time back and played with them for a while. Even thought of making a frag but decided I just didn't really need it. Seems like there is an issue with these being sold incorrectly or reclassified. Either way two nice agents came by today and picked them up. If you've got any I would suggest you safely get the fun out of them and when they show up turn over what's left. That's what I did when I saw this turning south some time back. The agents informed me that this is a nation wide effort to get these back so if you ordered them from the above company then they will be showing up. Too many details... Did they compensate you or was it asset forfeiture? |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:19:11 PM EDT
[#2]
No compensation.
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:46:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No compensation. Any paperwork left with you? |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 8:20:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any paperwork left with you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No compensation. Any paperwork left with you? Were they politely asking for this stuff, or was it a "give it to us, or else"? Did they have a warrant? Oh...one more thing- what date was your order with OOW? |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 9:20:57 PM EDT
[#5]
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1352970/james-copley.pdf
I wonder if this is related. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 9:44:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any paperwork left with you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No compensation. Any paperwork left with you? Typically when the BATFE seizes something, they will leave you with a receipt of the property taken. In a number of days, you should receive by certified mail or fedex, documents regarding a forfeiture. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 11:07:15 PM EDT
[#7]
They were professional and polite as would be expected.
Frankly I think they were a little surprised when I told them that I was expecting the visit and I already had everything boxed up for them. They were wearing BATFE shirts and visible badges so I didn't bother to ask for ID, plus they mentioned the details of my order with OOW which was all the confirmation I needed. I can't remember when I made my order but it's been quite a while ago. I've had worse traffic stops. No warrant and I wouldn't have expected one. I just turned over what I had and they gave me a receipt. They also mentioned that I would receive paperwork spelling out what happened in a few days and to remember that I was not in "trouble" it was just standard documentation of the visit and seizure of items. My suggestion is to be polite and professional and they will be the same. If you try to get smart or act weird expect the microscope to come out. I do stuff in the 07/02 world so there is zero benefit from me giving any push back. I want a good working relationship with my local BATFE guys. |
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Posted: 2/11/2015 11:13:29 AM EDT
[#8]
So you cant own m228 fuzes anymore?
Ive read the threads about making a frag but like you (and probably many others) just couldn't justify why i would need it and without any significant land to use it or the ability to "reload" it after use it seemed like at best a very expensive firework. |
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Posted: 2/11/2015 10:53:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1352970/james-copley.pdf I wonder if this is related. wow, i think i met that guy many years ago, my friend might have bought an at4 tube off him in the early days of gunbroker. i know the guys last name was copely and he had a fucked up arm. even better he claimed he was an occasional operative for the cia, he said his having 1 arm made him very unassuming. i guess he was not shitting when he said he had all sorts of cool stuff that was hard to get. on another note i almost bought some of those from oow but i had no reason to have them aside from the neat factor. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:18:38 AM EDT
[#10]
That was my reason as well: the cool factor.
Expect a visit brother. Sad. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 1:20:07 AM EDT
[#11]
I would legally argue that the M228 PRACTICE FUZE is in fact, NOT a "DETONATOR" as it is referenced in 18 USC Statute 841 (c) according to the search warrant referenced above.
(c) “Explosive materials” means explosives, blasting agents, and detonators.
I would further legally argue that the M228 is an IGNITER, used to remotely ignite a signalling compound (of less than 1 GRAM), after a pyrotechnic delay has expired. I would then contend that the M228 PRACTICE FUZE could NOT, in fact, reliably initiate a 1.1 HCS explosive (such as 50 grain per foot detonating cord [PETN based]), so is also therefore NOT a DETONATOR as described further in 18 USC Statute 841 (f): (f) “Detonator” means any device containing a detonating charge that is used for initiating detonation in an explosive; the term includes, but is not limited to, electric blasting caps of instantaneous and delay types, blasting caps for use with safety fuses and detonating-cord delay connectors. All of this does not surprise me from the BATFE either. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 8:10:07 AM EDT
[#12]
According to the search warrant, I also posses illegal explosives. Never would've thunk it.
Hope they don't come to confiscate my bottle rockets and muzzle loader. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:06:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Safety Fuse is a regulated explosive (according to the warrant)? Is that different from cannon fuse?
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:42:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Safety Fuse is a regulated explosive (according to the warrant)? Is that different from cannon fuse? Yep. Alot different. Talked to a bud about the whole deal, and M228 fuzes are considered a "Military Only" type of munition, even if they are for training and therefore not subject to Civilian sale & ownership. The ATF convinced SOMEBODY that the M228 fuze can be readily adapted for OFFENSIVE use...? The deal the ATF is offering to known purchasers is that the current owner has unlawfully taken possession of a un-registered yet restricted item. The current owner is given two choices: Voluntary forfeiture and no criminal charges OR keep the item and face Federal Prosecution on a number of perceived offenses & breaches of codified law. Sucks. But also something to consider for the DIY crowd out there and what they blatantly tell the FED's in OPEN FORUM posts. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 3:19:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Alot different. Talked to a bud about the whole deal, and M228 fuzes are considered a "Military Only" type of munition, even if they are for training and therefore not subject to Civilian sale & ownership. The ATF convinced SOMEBODY that the M228 fuze can be readily adapted for OFFENSIVE use...? The deal the ATF is offering to known purchasers is that the current owner has unlawfully taken possession of a un-registered yet restricted item. The current owner is given two choices: Voluntary forfeiture and no criminal charges OR keep the item and face Federal Prosecution on a number of perceived offenses & breaches of codified law. Sucks. But also something to consider for the DIY crowd out there and what they blatantly tell the FED's in OPEN FORUM posts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Safety Fuse is a regulated explosive (according to the warrant)? Is that different from cannon fuse? Yep. Alot different. Talked to a bud about the whole deal, and M228 fuzes are considered a "Military Only" type of munition, even if they are for training and therefore not subject to Civilian sale & ownership. The ATF convinced SOMEBODY that the M228 fuze can be readily adapted for OFFENSIVE use...? The deal the ATF is offering to known purchasers is that the current owner has unlawfully taken possession of a un-registered yet restricted item. The current owner is given two choices: Voluntary forfeiture and no criminal charges OR keep the item and face Federal Prosecution on a number of perceived offenses & breaches of codified law. Sucks. But also something to consider for the DIY crowd out there and what they blatantly tell the FED's in OPEN FORUM posts. ok, my Google fu sucks. Every thing I see seems to list Cannon fuse, and safety fuse, (and Visco fuse) as the same. Also how does this affect those who were repriming M228 fuses. I ask because I had thought about making some smoke grenades using a reprimed M228 and cannon fuse. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 3:38:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ok, my Google fu sucks. Every thing I see seems to list Cannon fuse, and safety fuse, (and Visco fuse) as the same. Also how does this affect those who were repriming M228 fuses. I ask because I had thought about making some smoke grenades using a reprimed M228 and cannon fuse. Safety fuse has a much thicker shell/wrapping (alot of residue left when burned) - cannon fuse and visco fuse are used interchangeably and are commonly used int he fireworks industry (not alot of residue left once burned). As far as re-primed M228 or M201a1 fuzes? Well that is the 10-20 year sentence / fines & penalties question! Does DIY constitute breaking the law, or is it ONLY the sale of the commercially manufactured "explosive" fuze? Its the BATFE, its confusing & contradictory as all hell. ~Will |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 4:17:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Didn't even ask for ID? Seriously dude, wtf over?
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Posted: 2/14/2015 8:44:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Wait...you said they listed improper storage for the reason right?
Soooo...since I have a proper magazine, this shouldn't be a problem for me. Did they list any other reason you couldn't have them? |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 9:30:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I have been following the thread on another board about these being picked up by the BATFE and I got my visit today. I ordered these from Ohio Ordnance Works some time back and played with them for a while. Even thought of making a frag but decided I just didn't really need it. Seems like there is an issue with these being sold incorrectly or reclassified. Either way two nice agents came by today and picked them up. If you've got any I would suggest you safely get the fun out of them and when they show up turn over what's left. That's what I did when I saw this turning south some time back. The agents informed me that this is a nation wide effort to get these back so if you ordered them from the above company then they will be showing up. What other board is covering this? Curious. ~Will |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 8:40:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Grog's 40mm forum.
These guys are known locals and had badges and gear visible. they knew details such as my order and others that did not make me feel the need to check id. No warrant, I knew it was coming too. I did mention reloading spent components with fuse and they did not want the parts and had no problem with that. Edited for spell check error. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 10:01:58 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Grove 40mm forum. These guys are known locals and had badges and gear visible. they knew details such as my order and others that did not make me feel the need to check id. No warrant, I knew it was coming too. I did mention reloading spent components with fuse and they did not want the parts and had no problem with that. So, is it gtg to reload spent smoke grenades with a .25acp round and cannon fuse? Does it fall under the "not really clear" and/or "never defined" code of the ATF? |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 7:52:47 PM EDT
[#22]
A lot of cans being picked up in this thread. I can't understand allowing the Feds to seize my legally bought property without due process and compensation. I may be way out of line, and I realize this is a tech forum, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I apologize if I'm out of line though.
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Posted: 2/16/2015 8:20:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of cans being picked up in this thread. I can't understand allowing the Feds to seize my legally bought property without due process and compensation. I may be way out of line, and I realize this is a tech forum, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I apologize if I'm out of line though. Thats just the thing. They weren't LEGALLY BOUGHT and TRANSFERRED. Its like saying "I bought this unregistered (no tax stamp), not legally transferred SBR / Suppressor / Explosives / Machine Gun and they seized it WITHOUT prosecuting me OR paying me for it." From what I understand, the agents ASK for the property under the auspice that NO CHARGES will be filed. Its completely voluntary, but, still against the LETTER OF THE LAW to purchase property that is restricted without going through the transfer & tax process. Which sucks. As I think its VAGUE and SHADY on the ATF's part - but - I am not willing to go to court over it. M228 fuzes are restricted items that have to be transferred correctly according to the BATFE. A person can go & purchase illegal drugs, doesn't make it a legal purchase, and if the cops only seize those drugs without prosecuting, then that person got off very easily. ~Will |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 10:30:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats just the thing. They weren't LEGALLY BOUGHT and TRANSFERRED. Its like saying "I bought this unregistered (no tax stamp), not legally transferred SBR / Suppressor / Explosives / Machine Gun and they seized it WITHOUT prosecuting me OR paying me for it." From what I understand, the agents ASK for the property under the auspice that NO CHARGES will be filed. Its completely voluntary, but, still against the LETTER OF THE LAW to purchase property that is restricted without going through the transfer & tax process. Which sucks. As I think its VAGUE and SHADY on the ATF's part - but - I am not willing to go to court over it. M228 fuzes are restricted items that have to be transferred correctly according to the BATFE. A person can go & purchase illegal drugs, doesn't make it a legal purchase, and if the cops only seize those drugs without prosecuting, then that person got off very easily. ~Will Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A lot of cans being picked up in this thread. I can't understand allowing the Feds to seize my legally bought property without due process and compensation. I may be way out of line, and I realize this is a tech forum, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I apologize if I'm out of line though. Thats just the thing. They weren't LEGALLY BOUGHT and TRANSFERRED. Its like saying "I bought this unregistered (no tax stamp), not legally transferred SBR / Suppressor / Explosives / Machine Gun and they seized it WITHOUT prosecuting me OR paying me for it." From what I understand, the agents ASK for the property under the auspice that NO CHARGES will be filed. Its completely voluntary, but, still against the LETTER OF THE LAW to purchase property that is restricted without going through the transfer & tax process. Which sucks. As I think its VAGUE and SHADY on the ATF's part - but - I am not willing to go to court over it. M228 fuzes are restricted items that have to be transferred correctly according to the BATFE. A person can go & purchase illegal drugs, doesn't make it a legal purchase, and if the cops only seize those drugs without prosecuting, then that person got off very easily. ~Will K. Sorry, I suppose I'm confused. The OP said he purchased them from Ohio Ordnance Works. Was the OP knowingly making an illegal buy? Was there NFA paperwork involved? If it was an illegal sale, was OOW knowingly violating the law? Are they being prosecuted? |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 4:55:03 PM EDT
[#25]
OOW offered these for sale with paperwork that said they could purchased by anyone. No requirement for anything on my end except money and a shipping address.
Turns out they shouldn't have. I have a call in to OOW for clarification as my local field agent didn't know the particulars, just to come and get them. The particulars don't matter except that the ATF knows I purchased them with the understanding that I was not breaking the law. They pulled the list of purchasers and went down the list to get them back. I could have refusee to turn them over, they would get a warrant and get them anyway. Then I'd be in a legal battle and would most likely lose and suffer the consequences. Not worth it for a pull-pin firecracker. |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 8:31:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OOW offered these for sale with paperwork that said they could purchased by anyone. No requirement for anything on my end except money and a shipping address. Turns out they shouldn't have. I have a call in to OOW for clarification as my local field agent didn't know the particulars, just to come and get them. The particulars don't matter except that the ATF knows I purchased them with the understanding that I was not breaking the law. They pulled the list of purchasers and went down the list to get them back. I could have refusee to turn them over, they would get a warrant and get them anyway. Then I'd be in a legal battle and would most likely lose and suffer the consequences. Not worth it for a pull-pin firecracker. Sounds like you have a case to get your money back from OOW. Doesn't mean it will happen, but, you are on better ground legally. It may be easier to get blood from a stone though. You may have a better chance if you paid by credit card, to go through the credit card company and talk to their FRAUD dept. ~Will |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 9:10:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Maybe so but it's been my experience that the only people who win in court are the lawyers.
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Posted: 2/18/2015 9:25:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe so but it's been my experience that the only people who win in court are the lawyers. Very True! Is OOW still in business? Talk to your CC company (if thats how you paid). The fault is not with YOU as the buyer, but the SELLER. ~Will |
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Posted: 2/18/2015 10:01:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of cans being picked up in this thread. I can't understand allowing the Feds to seize my legally bought property without due process and compensation. I may be way out of line, and I realize this is a tech forum, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. I apologize if I'm out of line though. I am sure everyone would appreciate you volunteering to be the test case. As much as I don't agree with what they do I like most own too many nice things and appreciate not being behind bars. Keep in mind who you are dealing with when you step up to the plate. |
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Posted: 2/20/2015 11:47:26 PM EDT
[#30]
I got a call back from the president of OOW.
They were told not to call any buyers, I guess to help with the BATFE effort to collect these back up. They fuzes were sold to them under false information, the person they bought them from is in trouble. Possession of these requires a federal explosives license and proper storage. OOW offered to refund me the cost of the items that were seized by the BATFE. I did not ask for this and it was freely offered. OOW has done me right and I am happy. Glad it all worked out without drama. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 11:18:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Why does OOW maintain a customer list for non FFL/NFA related items?
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Posted: 3/5/2015 3:44:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Probably the same reason most other companies do. So they can market new products to you based upon previous purchasing trends.
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Posted: 3/5/2015 4:14:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wow, i think i met that guy many years ago, my friend might have bought an at4 tube off him in the early days of gunbroker. i know the guys last name was copely and he had a fucked up arm. even better he claimed he was an occasional operative for the cia, he said his having 1 arm made him very unassuming. i guess he was not shitting when he said he had all sorts of cool stuff that was hard to get. on another note i almost bought some of those from oow but i had no reason to have them aside from the neat factor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1352970/james-copley.pdf I wonder if this is related. wow, i think i met that guy many years ago, my friend might have bought an at4 tube off him in the early days of gunbroker. i know the guys last name was copely and he had a fucked up arm. even better he claimed he was an occasional operative for the cia, he said his having 1 arm made him very unassuming. i guess he was not shitting when he said he had all sorts of cool stuff that was hard to get. on another note i almost bought some of those from oow but i had no reason to have them aside from the neat factor. Holy cave-shit Batman! That guy lives (probably not anymore) just around the corner from my wife's great grandmother's house. I'm gonna have to drive by there for the fun of it. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 5:05:08 AM EDT
[#34]
Are these the fuses with the blue spoon?
I may know a guy who bought some off another Arfcom member. Then like 6/7 months later got another email from the seller offering as many as he'd want to buy. Just didn't have money or interest at the time. I told him he should have gotten more. |
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Posted: 3/9/2015 10:38:57 AM EDT
[#35]
yes
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Posted: 3/9/2015 4:37:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yes Hhah oh. No wonder he was trying to sell "as many as you could want" to my buddy. And yea I remember that one handed guy off gunbroker. No idea where he was getting this stuff but had all kinds of shit on there, WICKED high prices and not in touch with reality. Had a set of M60 receiver rails on there for 5yrs+ for $900. 
"JW Stumpy" was his name on there I think. |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 5:06:05 PM EDT
[#37]
any word on inert ones? theres no explosives in it... basically its scrap metal at that point.
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Posted: 3/31/2015 6:15:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Yeah this doesn't apply to spent fuses does it? I see old dummy grenades all over the place with spent practice fuses in them.
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Posted: 4/1/2015 1:39:53 PM EDT
[#39]
my assumption would be no, simply because there is not explosive charge exceeding 1/4oz. technically, there shouldnt be any at all unless when it was used it didnt fully detonate. however, my fear is that they could argue that it can be rearmed somehow. ive seen people rearm them with visco fuse to use for smoke grenades, but there isnt any explosives being dealt with- even though visco fuse is technically black powder. it would be interesting to hear their logic and opinion on the matter dealing with the legality. if it ever became a problem, i would be willing to bet that there would be an incredible lawsuit possibility.
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