If you want to swap it between rifles you can put it on a LT845 and move your scope and rifle together.  You will have to dial back to your first rifles zero though and make dial adjustments from their.

If Sig made a rifle mounted version of the Kilo 2k I would buy several.  I'm happy with my Kilo 2k, but I really like the idea of a co-axed optic/range finder.

I'm thinking I'll get a radius for my primary long range build and use the Kilo 2k for my other rifles.

Neat, that even has Bluetooth.

Good point and I would agree the idea of dedicated, continuous/on-demand ranging from just viewing through the scope is neat ... just not the asking price neat to me.



I believe that's the 2400 model. The 2000 was being closed out recently and nets you a nice range finder for around $350.

Yep, you're right about the Saker 556. After that can their offerings have been pretty much available at the same time as they are revealed. In the eyes of this normal non-industry consumer, most of the other big companies have struggled with supplying new offerings more than SilencerCo. Also, I'm not that old so my glasses haven't had time to fade :)

So they voted to block the SSA ban. Good. Now he just has to sign it.

Here is the first test for "us". If he blocks it, good sign. Still won't fully trust him but good start.

If he doesn't. Then just business as usual. Not to many politicians really want their subjects armed. I don't care if they say they are pro 2nd. That's just grand standing for votes. Look at all of the anti gun legislation that has Coke at the hands of Republicans. Dare I say the Dems have put more guns into the hands of civilians than the republicans. Unintentional consequences but the end result is the end result.

Well, it hasn't happened because Barack Obama didn't issue a single Executive Order regarding firearms during his eight years in office.

In your opinion, do you see the suppressor industry innovating any more? Or just becoming more crowded and competitive? the DA Wolverine PBS-1 was the last product in a while that made me say "Wow, that's so unique I think I want one" and made me dip my toe back into NFA waters post-41F. The rest, are all just varying combinations of length and materials, nothing that really "stood out"

Absolutely. Things do not change overnight, but in just the past few years, we have seen:

User Serviceable cans everywhere
Monocore & Cone baffles replacing K baffles as they are easy to clean
Modular cans
Better materials Titanium, Inconel
Better longevity due to better MFG methods (CNC, robotic welding, EDM, etc)
Circumferential welding
Better mounts
tubeless designs
Tapered bores
less negative effect on gun due to R&D (ROF, accuracy, recoil, etc)

Now some of these things were tried in past, but recently they are much more accepted and much better engineered.

I've never seen one in any LGS, and I don't know anybody whom owns/ bought one.

I'm also hoping DMLS (direct metal laser sintering) technology becomes more affordable and people can experiment with baffle designs that were not cost effective or practical/possible to machine. Giving credit to Delta P for the work they've done, but I'd like to see more manufacturers explore this technology.

There's a zillion reason why the suppressor market is hurting.  The HPA is just one of many.  41F didn't aid in that either.  Attitudes against budget type silencers also hurt the industry as a whole.  Everyone is always telling you, "Just save up more and get a better can!"  What really ends up happening is people save up more and get something else.  Suppressors start to lose their appeal when they pass the $800 mark, because tax puts them over $1k.  Now when you look at that can, what you see is what could be a whole new rifle, and that ship can get underway right away instead sitting in jail for 8 months.  Elitism kills, or at least greatly harms, every market it creeps in to.

Your missing out.

B.S.

The tax stamp and wait time make it idiotic to pinch pennies.

Nobody is stopping anyone from buying shitty products.

I guess I have to agree. Hard to see the forest through the trees I suppose.

Tax stamp is exactly what makes you want to pinch pennies.  The prices you see on the cans ain't the prices they go for.  It's that price +$200.

Silencer Shop split isn't helping the matter either.

$200 isn't the issue. It is the wait and hassle. 

Sico got big filling orders pre 41f, especially once people found out how easy it was with a trust.  Once 41f was announced anyone that was serious about getting a suppressor bought one.

now many buyers are in a holding pattern waiting on the HPA.

Also as mentioned it didn't help they created two competitors. 

I don't think they screwed up in pushing for the HPA. Demand is down and sometimes that means making hard choices. Lots of gun companies overexpanded over the last few years.

I think people are deluding themselves into thinking the HPA will pass.

I also think that despite the groupthink on this forum, that Silencerco and AAC, along with longtime manufacturers like Gemtech, Griffin, Surefire, and YHM, still own a huge part of the market. The newer companies have shiny toys but you only get that perception that they're taking over because their fanboys are the loudest.

Eh, whatever. I just don't see why anyone would hold off buying one. Stupid.

If it passes you get it sooner and if it doesn't you have to wait anyway.

And if it passes most of us won't touch another one for a year I'll bet due to demand. Seriously, how many tens of millions of guns will be fitted with suppressors if this passes? I bought one. I have at least three more guns I'd immediately buy suppressors for.


Thank God I bought mine in September. Wish I bought earlier.

I have plenty of cans sitting NFA jail.  I bought pre and post july cutoff.  I don't care at all about the HPA and $200 is a bummer, but not an immense barrier to entry. I have stopped buying at this point because the wait has gotten so long and the development cycle has shortened so much.  I don't need the latest and the greatest, but when I'm spending $1000 on a can i sure want it.  Some people might consider this irrational or stupid, but I'm going to be really pissed if a surefire(insert any suppressor manufacture here) rc3 comes out while i am waiting for my rc2.  Manufacturers have to innovate to survive and keep us consumers interested; i'm all for it.

EXACTLY

For me it was 41F too. And the wait times.

Wait times will come down once the glut from pre41f is done.  I'd wager that if you filed now you'd probably only be waiting a 4-6 months tops instead of the year+ that people that filed in June and July are looking at.

The reality is it's been cool to hate SilencerCo for everything about 2 years. It's an easy way to virtue signal how "in the know" you are and how familiar you are with inner-Industry politics for some people. SilencerCo certainly has their faults and a string of lackluster products to string right along their successes, but they haven't done anything to deserve being the collective whipping boy for everyone's grievances. The truth is they've done a lot more for us as consumers than anyone else has, and it's reflective of the High-School-esque mentality of a lot of people more than anything.

Like what? Not being argumentative for once, but would really like to know what you are referring to.

Certainly popularized them to a large extent. Between social media, actual media, etc. they've attacked a huge demographic that otherwise probably wouldn't have gotten involved. If you can think back to the 2008-2010 area, Silencers were not only obscure but certainly regarded as "lol2cool4u" operator devices. Plus, the ASA and all that jazz. They were also the most pleasant company to work with as a Dealer.

The Quiet Riot tours were fantastic as well. When we hosted one not only did sales explode but we had lots of media come out, and a ton of first time suppressor shooters. When we hosted one, I probably setup 50ish Trusts and sold 50+ cans that day, with 100 the week following.

If you first came to the silencer world when they started I guess I could see how you may think that.

But the real truth is there were many more influential people who kept the industry going for the first 75 years. Gemtech, KAC, AAC, SWR, SRT, Qual-A-Tec, OPS, AWC, John's, to name a few (and let's not forget that Maxim guy). Without them, the industry would have died decades ago.

SiCo only came on the scene when it was already insanely popular, as in after Trusts became 87% of submissions. They were Johnny-come-lately, and while they have contributed since then, they hardly have done "more for us as consumers than anyone else has". Without a doubt, the early Trust adopters who shouted from the rooftops to other consumers far and wide the ease at which NFA could be bought got us to where we are.

Disagree. I and other people I know have known about suppressors since we were kids.

Who doesn't know about silencers?  It breaks down to your mentality (or brainwashing)

You either like them and want one or think they eat babies just like guns.  Seeing ads doesn't change my or many others' minds I don't think.

I bought because I had a list of items I wanted and silencers and NODS were at the end due to cost. But I reached them and now I have them. Well, I have the NV. Can is in jail.

I'm not trying to take away from the pioneers, and you could certainly make the case that SiCo simply rode the wave that others created, but I'm personally of the opinion that they were a huge push behind it (at least certainly a lot more than they were given credit for by a lot of people). If you look at the numbers, 150K registered in 2006 - 285k in 2010 - 500k+ in 2015, and 900k+ now, it paints a better picture of the timeline. Obviously most of this on my end will probably be predicated on cognitive bias by my complete lack of knowledge of the industry prior, but I don't think the statement that more has happened in the last 10 years with Silencers than the previous 75 is all that crazy(I'm not claiming they were solely behind this because there are obviously a lot of external factors involved that were beyond anyone person's control).

I'll amend my previous statement to SilencerCo certainly has done a lot more than most will ever give them credit for.

All of this is just high school squabbling. Lol

We are all anxious to find out if the HPA will pass or not. And if it does, when.

Either way, once we find out, I'm sure all of this talk will go away and it will be business as usual OR we will have an influx of noobs asking about cans.

It's entertaining in the meantime though. Lol

Welllllllll.....the extra $200 isn't chump change and does suck.

I still bought a decent can (Sig srd) and the extra $200 definitely wasn't paid out with a smile. That's training, more mags, more Speer gold dot, et cetera

As far as the budget cans. I don't know how others think but it doesn't make sense to me to buy a $350 can and have to lay out another $200. It's obviously a psychological thing but it just doesn't make sense to me. It's part of the reason I won't get a .22 can. I just can't bring myself to buy a $199 can and have to pay the same amount in fucking tax.

Especially with items that can suffer things like baffle strikes and wear.

To be honest I'm surprised cans are as popular as they are given the baggage that comes along with them.

That's like asking why flying is popular with fees and having to be groped by TSA. Not everyone views those things in such a negative light

That's why I hesitated so long to order a 22 can as well. Don't forget, if you have to get it transferred you're looking at another fee on top of that.

When I was looking around for a dealer recently I was quoted $150 transfer fee. So for a $300 suppressor I was going to have to pay 200 for tax and 150 for a transfer. Ultimately I was able to find a much more reasonable dealer but the fees and taxes ARE outrageous and do have an impact on sales. Plus, who knows when I'll even see the damn thing with wait times so high.

Everyone wants to point fingers right now as to why sales are down. Everyone panic buyed a bunch of NFA items prior to 41f and haven't even got to take them home yet. Trump getting elected, 41f, wait times and HPA all play a role. It's going to be a slow time for the whole industry

Seriously?
You think SiCo popularized silencers? That silencers were obscure before SiCo came around?
Oh brother.

Amen!  As of today, way too much hassle.

Are you physically incapable of rolling your own fingerprints and taking an effing selfie?
'Cause that's the only "hassle" for buying with a trust.................it's exactly the same as what individuals did for the last 83 years.

To refer back to my post, I think they opened them up to a much wider demographic; they certainly targeted a much different one than is usual of gun companies, especially niche gun companies.

Silencers were certainly obscure, and really only recently hit the mainstream in the last few years.

If you take the estimated 55 Million gun owners as a reference point(don't know how accurate it is, especially compared to 2006), in 2006 there were 150K Silencers in circulation; that is 1/5 of a single percent of gun owners at most that owned one. I would classify .2% as obscure. Even now, at <2% it is still relatively obscure.

They certainly have a larger social media presence than everyone else, they also seem to have had a much higher profile presence in the news. The ASA seems to have done some good things(or perhaps also riding the waves, depending on your perspective I suppose). They also have seemed to have their eyes on the biggest target with the HPA. Considering how new they are, they seemed to me to have a major impact on the industry as a whole, but I suppose that was also luck and coat-tail riding.

On a side note, it's really impressive how steady and relevant Gemtech has remained over the years. Good product and people over there, and they appear to have a really solid prescence online. I don't personally own any of their stuff, but was really surprised with some of their metrics.

I, for one, enjoy a good TSA groping.

In my opinion: Pre-41F purchasing is doing more damage than those holding out for HPA passage.

I currently own 22 silencers, 5 were purchased in 2016, Pre-41F. That is more than any other year that I have bought NFA items. Also filed for 3 SBRS pre-41F. Since then, only 2 silencers, and 2 SBRs.

Personally, there just aren't cans out there (aside from fucking B&T USA who doesn't want my money) that I have a need for. My bases are pretty-well covered.

When Kevin went to SIG, he made a video where he tongue and cheek referred to SiCo as a marketing company that sold silencers.
He was right. But the marketing that SiCo has done in the last 5 years has been far and away better and farther reaching than any other suppressor company.
They have made more people aware of suppressor ownership than I think people realize. Their products and people aside. The marketing they did served a much bigger purpose than selling just THEIR cans.

I am unaware of a single accomplishment.

As I recall, they barely made the deadline for the 41P comment period, just squeaking in a repetition of what others already submitted.

Out of curiosity, can anyone else remember pushes from companies on awareness? I can remember AAC's Can U, and I remembers when SilencerCo started their big "Silencers Are Legal" push. I feel like there's another one that I can't remember. Managed to dig this up along with some stickers.

If I remember correctly most of it has been on the state level, as part of their "No State Left Behind" campaign. I haven't exactly followed them very close despite sending them money, but I think they've helped craft legislation for both legalizing suppressor ownership and hunting with suppressors in quite a few states, as well as shall sign laws. Could be completely wrong though.

Ok I have not followed any of that outside of Texas which did not need it.

Nor have I really. Have no plans on leaving the best state.

Huh? SiCo jumped on the bandwagon that had been rolling for years. What new or "much wider demographic" did SiCo discover?




Uh, no.
Silencers won't be "mainstream" until they are Title I.  
To think that SiCo created the demand for silencers is pretty naive, if not downright ignorant.  
States legalizing hunting with silencers caused a tremendous increase in demand......not Sico "social media".

You seem to think SiCo popularized silencers, it's more like silencers popularized SilencerCo. Yes they have spent millions on "marketing", but AAC did the same thing ten years earlier and probably spent the same amount of $$$$.



Obscure? Have you looked in the dictionary for the definition of "obscure"? There ain't a damn thing obscure about a silencer. Ask a hundred people "what is a firearm silencer?" and I'll bet 87 can tell you it screws on the barrel of a gun and silences the shot. That isn't obscure. A glove that's disguised as a firearm is obscure, a silencer is not.

If you are trying to convince us that silencer ownership is tiny compared to Title I firearms........well no shit Sherlock, we know that. But to claim that SiCo has brought silencers into the mainstream is ignoring:
1. The value of $200 in 1934 vs $200 in 2017. (which may be the single biggest influence on whether to buy a silencer or not)
2. The number of states that have legalized hunting with silencers.
3. Dealers educating their customers about the legalities of NFA firearms.
4. Forums such as AR15 with NFA subforums.
5. The efforts by every other silencer manufacturer........that predate SiCo.




Seriously........Facebook and Twitter?  Anyone can spam the world via Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and what does it prove exactly..........that you have a 22yr old marketing assistant and his job is to make Facebook posts?
And yes they definitely have a high profile in the news......laying off employees will certainly do that.



You seem to think the ASA is SiCo, that they are one and the same. They are not.

.

If by jumped on the bandwagon you mean threw an LS7 on it and started driving the wagon, I'd agree.


So before you were laughing at me because I expressed that Silencers were obscure, and now you're arguing that Silencers aren't mainstream?

That doesn't seem like a very consistent or rational position.




I do think in some cases SilencerCo has generated huge amounts of buzz for the industry as a whole, helped spread information and awareness about the process, and in very specific cases hosted open to the public(IE:Free) shoots across the country to allow people to get their hands on Silencers. I first hand witnessed demand being generated in front of my very eyes because of the actions of a company, albeit a completely anecdotal experience.


No, I think SiCo helped popularized silencers by helping expose a much larger group to their products than was typical of the market 10 years ago. The proof I submit is their success.



A couple of sentences ago they weren't mainstream? But now they weren't ever obscure? Ask that same person the follow up question "Can you buy one?" and I'll bet 87 that they say they are illegal. Because someone can tell you what something is doesn't make it any less obscure of a market. Replace with the word niche if it lowers your blood pressure.  


I'm using that data to reinforce the fact that even though the Silencer market is a subset of the larger gun market, it is certainly obsc- *ahem* niche by any practical standards.
1.Yet there really isn't a huge difference between 1990 and 2010 in terms of inflation, and middle classes wages have been largely stagnant
2. I wonder if anyone helped with that?
3. I wonder if anyone in particular provides resources for their dealers, or if any dealers have fallen under the envelop of education pushed by the industry as a whole.
4. Of course forums have helped, as has social media
5. I think it's arguable who had the better execution


Yeah, anyone can spam the world, not everyone can be effective about it(especially in the gun industry where companies restrict growth).

It proves that they are reaching a wider group of people, which is my entire point.

Is there another company that has 10 Million+ views on their YouTube channel? As a point of reference that's 5x the amount of Sig Sauer which is a much larger company, and makes a lot more than just cans.  That's quite a few views of a market that's neither niche nor is it mainstream.


Were they a founding member or not?

That's laughable.




Obscure means unknown. Mainstream would mean they are available for purchase like any other firearm.




SiCo isn't the only company generating "buzz"....it may be the only one you pay attention to. Heck, AAC and others sponsored free silencer shoots before SiCo ever thought of their Quiet Riot events. I witness demand being generated every time someone sees my display silencers and Silencer Shop kiosk.





Oh good grief. EVERY silencer company has had success, even Huntertown.
But fanboys gotta fanboy.





If 87 say they are illegal...........they ain't obscure are they? Ignorant yes, obscure no.





1. Why are you choosing only 1990-2010? Do you disagree that the expense of a $200 tax stamp has less of an impact on a buyers decision now than it did in 1934?
2. Yeah, SiCo did it all by themselves.
3. AAC was the first manufacturer to push NFA educational materials my way......before SiCo's Fight the Noise campaign.
5. Better execution? Silencer Shop for one. SiCo sent out that funny email to dealers saying the Silencer Shop kiosk's weren't legal to scan prints. Their awesome execution was reading the wrong ATF regulation. It made them look petty AND stupid.





When "likes" equal purchases you would have a point.




Fanboys need their porn.





Yes, but you miss the point......they were not the ONLY founding member. AAC & Gemtech were the other two founding members.

Semantics. It was an obscure market, that is seeing mainstream attention.


Did I ever assert that SilencerCo was the ONLY company doing anything? My contention(after clarifying on my original statement) is that SilencerCo is not given credit they deserve by a lot of people because it's a cool thing to hate them. I conceded earlier that my original wording certainly wasn't the best in the world.

There is one thing that is objectively true though, they are certainly the loudest company generating buzz, because they have larger platforms that reach more eyes and have been really successful in marketing(another thing that they gets loads of shit for as an insult, but you won't even concede it now).There is no one else who has been comparatively doing it at the level or the extent they have. I'm not saying other people never did shoots, I'm saying SilencerCo has done them in greater quantity in a shorter period of time.

The funny thing is I'm a fanboy, yet I own more individually of AAC, Dead Air, and Surefire than I do SilencerCo. I only personally own a Spectre II and Salvo that's still sealed in a box from them. Hell, by the end of the year I'll probably own more Q too, once my fix comes in and they release the honey badger.

Obscurity has nothing to do with simply being aware that something exists. To quote Wikipedia:



1. I bring up that period because it's effectively the same price so why didn't the explosion of popularity happen in 1990? Why did 20 years for the demand to shoot up?
5. Or it could have something to do with the government giving two different people two forms of information, but I'm sure you know exactly what happened.

Notice I said a founding member. That implies multiple. The reason I reference them together a lot, and it is 100% an error of conflation in my part, is you often see the two mentioned synonymously in a lot of articles and media, especially when people reference the HPA and how SilencerCo ruined everything because of how they pushed the HPA, which is the entire point of the thread. In fact, I don't think I've heard. single other manufacturer "called out" by industry guys for pushing the HPA too fast, even the sponsors of the ASA.

Other than semantics and straw-men, it seems like the only point actually held in contention here is:

Does SilencerCo have the largest platform?

We can agree to disagree, or continue to argue with circular logic that goes absolutely no-where, either way it really has no affect or bearing on the passage of the HPA.