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justsumdude
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Posted: 6/9/2010 11:43:07 PM
I have two questions really, My next build is going to be a SBR and I am going to suppress it. I would like to have the shortest barrel possible but I know that I can't run a suppressor with a 7.5" barrel. I have read some conflicting opinions as to the minimum barrel length to use a suppressor ranging from 10.5" to 12.5". If it makes a difference this will be a .223 caliber build and I do plan on running an Adam's Arms piston kit. I would also like to know which suppressors you guys would recommend. I am most concerned with db level, overall length, weight, diameter (in that order). So my two questions are:

1. Which barrel length for a suppressed AR?

2. Which suppressor for lowest db, shortest length?


Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Arkady
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Posted: 6/10/2010 12:22:46 AM
I wouldn't go 10.5, personally. 11.5 is my pick.

I would recommend an AAC M4-2000 with the muzzle brake mount, as opposed to the flashhider. Major Malfunctions Munitions has a good thread in his industry forum about why.

Check out SilencerResearch.com––John has tested a number of 5.56 cans on both M4s and a 10.4 HK 416 upper.
bluefalcon
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Posted: 6/10/2010 3:23:06 AM
This is what I went with:







11.5" barrel with Surefire FA556AR. I plan to switch to a 12.5" barrel, though because the mount that is required to attach the can to the 11.5" barrel doesn't reflex back as far so another full inch of barrel length would net me only another half inch of overall length. As it is, it is close to the length of a 16" barreled AR with a flash hider (see below). I wouldn't go any shorter than 10.5" inches if you plan on using it for anything put paper and beer cans as you won't get reliable fragmentation with a barrel any shorter. Also 10.5" and shorter barrels tend to beat up suppressors pretty badly. AAC, Surefire, and Ops Inc all have muzzle brake adapters which are thought to reduce wear to the blast baffle. Most manufacturers advise that you use an 11.5" or longer barrel with their suppressors.





That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Hope the advice is worth at least what you paid for it.
Is it 2012 yet?

I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask none to live for me, nor do I live for any others. I covet no man's soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet. - Ayn Rand
BookHound
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Posted: 6/10/2010 6:08:00 AM
Too bad you want to use that Adams Arms piston kit. That limits you a bit on your suppressor choice. You need to make sure the piston will clear whatever flash suppressor mount you want to use. For example, on a 11.5" barrel if you are using an AAC mount IIRC you won't have clearance to remove the piston. I tried installing that combination for a buddy months ago and we had problems. You might want to investigate that further.

If you were willing to use a DI system like most of us do without problems, I'd suggest an Ops Inc 16th Model on an 11.5" barrel. You'll need to use a short gas block to make it work but the sound reduction is awesome and the Ops Inc design gives you very little gas blow back.

My second choice is an AAC M4-2000. It is a wonderful product. You will get more gas blow back than the Ops Inc product, but it is light weight, durable and does sound good.

SureFire is a good choice as mentioned. I just think their products are more expensive than they need to be when compared to the competition. They are also a bit louder. But very well built and use good mounts.

For barrel length I am running 11.5" SBRs. I don't notice handling differences between 10.5" and 11.5" barrels but with the 11.5" you get a little better velocity which reduces the chances of baffle/end cap strikes.

Mark
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." R. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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Major-Malfunction
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Posted: 6/10/2010 8:45:12 AM
Originally Posted By justsumdude:
I am most concerned with db level, overall length, weight, diameter (in that order).



Justsumdude,

A lost of customers put sound reduction at the top of their list of eval criteria for a 5.56 can, but in my opion sound reduction should be just about at the bottom of the list.

All 5.56 cans provide similar sound reduction. From the best to the worst, they honestly don't sound dramatically different to the shooter.

The majority of what the shooter hears is:
1. The "crack" as the round breaks the sound barrier going down range.
2. The sound coming out of the ejection port (keep in mind that the ejection port is only 8-9 inches from your ear).

When considering which 5.56 can is best, the two top criteria (IMHO) should be DURABILITY and WEIGHT.

DURABILITY:

The AR is an absolutely punishing platform to try and suppressor (it's just about the "worst case scenario" for a can - the only thing worse would be belt-fed MGs). Most guys run their ARs pretty hard, doing drills, double taps, quick reloads, etc. An AR can gets blazzing hot very fast and usually stays that way much longer than other cans. The blast wave of the 5.56 round is BRUTAL and many customers run their cans on SBRs, which are exponentially harder on the suppressor (here's a thread in our subform with more detail: link)

The use of inconel is key to longevity/durability in a 5.56 can (at a minimum, the blast baffle should be inconel). The welding/construction of the can is also very important.

WEIGHT:

The last thing I want on the end of my barrel is a heavy can. It pushes the center of gravity on the gun forward and slows reaction time on drills. Some 5.56 cans are in the mid 20 Oz. range (that's like taking two full soda cans a duct taping them around the end of your barrel - not good).



MAJOR MALFUNCTION'S MUNITIONS

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slimguns
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Posted: 6/10/2010 9:31:44 AM
That's hard to follow up M3 but here's my free opinion.

A 12.5" LWRC A2 (handguard) or A3 (rail) with an AAC SPR using a break. Short as a carbine, no problem with piston clearance, light, and durable.

Of course it will be heavy on the bank account though.
r-2-k-b-a
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Posted: 6/10/2010 12:04:24 PM
Originally Posted By justsumdude:
I have two questions really, My next build is going to be a SBR and I am going to suppress it. I would like to have the shortest barrel possible but I know that I can't run a suppressor with a 7.5" barrel. I have read some conflicting opinions as to the minimum barrel length to use a suppressor ranging from 10.5" to 12.5". If it makes a difference this will be a .223 caliber build and I do plan on running an Adam's Arms piston kit. I would also like to know which suppressors you guys would recommend. I am most concerned with db level, overall length, weight, diameter (in that order). So my two questions are:

1. Which barrel length for a suppressed AR?

2. Which suppressor for lowest db, shortest length?


Any advise would be greatly appreciated.


11.5 is the shortest I would go with .223 and a can attached. The brand you use is going to matter the least. Most .223 cans are pretty much the same in DB reduction. The differences are hard to notice unless you are looking at a brand that uses older technology.
bluefalcon
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Posted: 6/10/2010 2:08:28 PM
Originally Posted By Major-Malfunction:
Originally Posted By justsumdude:
I am most concerned with db level, overall length, weight, diameter (in that order).



Justsumdude,

A lost of customers put sound reduction at the top of their list of eval criteria for a 5.56 can, but in my opion sound reduction should be just about at the bottom of the list.

All 5.56 cans provide similar sound reduction. From the best to the worst, they honestly don't sound dramatically different to the shooter.

The majority of what the shooter hears is:
1. The "crack" as the round breaks the sound barrier going down range.
2. The sound coming out of the ejection port (keep in mind that the ejection port is only 8-9 inches from your ear).

When considering which 5.56 can is best, the two top criteria (IMHO) should be DURABILITY and WEIGHT.

DURABILITY:

The AR is an absolutely punishing platform to try and suppressor (it's just about the "worst case scenario" for a can - the only thing worse would be belt-fed MGs). Most guys run their ARs pretty hard, doing drills, double taps, quick reloads, etc. An AR can gets blazzing hot very fast and usually stays that way much longer than other cans. The blast wave of the 5.56 round is BRUTAL and many customers run their cans on SBRs, which are exponentially harder on the suppressor (here's a thread in our subform with more detail: link)

The use of inconel is key to longevity/durability in a 5.56 can (at a minimum, the blast baffle should be inconel). The welding/construction of the can is also very important.

WEIGHT:

The last thing I want on the end of my barrel is a heavy can. It pushes the center of gravity on the gun forward and slows reaction time on drills. Some 5.56 cans are in the mid 20 Oz. range (that's like taking two full soda cans a duct taping them around the end of your barrel - not good).





I agree with the Major (who would disagree?) and he makes my privates stand at attention, but I'd like to add one thing:

Length and length past muzzle should also be considered and for an SBR, they should probably be close to the top of the list.

Attachment method is also going to affect whether your can or mount will work with the gas piston system. I also agree that a gas piston adds unnecessary complexity, non-standard proprietary parts, and weight to a system that doesn't really need it. Add in the fact that piston systems tend not to be quite as quiet and it seems a bad idea to me, but it's your money.
Is it 2012 yet?

I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask none to live for me, nor do I live for any others. I covet no man's soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet. - Ayn Rand
BookHound
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Posted: 6/10/2010 2:50:28 PM

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I agree with the Major (who would disagree?)

I guess I will disagree. I can tell a noticeable difference between many 5.56 suppressors. Just the other day I was shooting an M4-1000 and an M4-2000 on a 16" DI AR. The exact same rifle was used with the same different types of ammo. There was a noticeable difference both as the shooter and standing to either side of the shooter. The M4-2000 was noticeably quieter.

I agree the loudest noise with a 5.56 suppressor is the supersonic crack of the bullet but there IS a noticeable difference in the blast reduction between some suppressors. But what do I know? I only shot 20K+ 5.56 rounds last year.

And speaking of "old technology", some older technology is still an incredible performer today. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.

Mark
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RTS
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Posted: 6/10/2010 6:28:34 PM
1. Ops Inc 16th
2. M42000

Definitely Ops Inc 16th for an SBR, imo. 11.5" minimum.
Bklyn_Irish
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Posted: 6/10/2010 6:33:13 PM
[Last Edit: 6/11/2010 6:36:49 AM by Bklyn_Irish]
Of my four rifles, (two 14.5", one 20", one 10.5",) I suspect the Gemtech G5 I have on order will spend the least amount of time on the SBR, as a result of these threads...or will it?
"Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky!" -Alec Guinness as MAJ (acting Colonel) Jock Sinclair, D.S.O., M.M. "Tunes of Glory"
6172crew
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Posted: 6/10/2010 6:58:27 PM
I have a LMT 10.5 and a cheaper Tac16 that I run. The Tac16 is built like a brick shit house and work ok. Tac16 does have a different point of impact with the can, but the LMT 10 inch isnt a tack driver so I use it for FA fun.
edwin907
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Posted: 6/10/2010 10:08:19 PM
Originally Posted By BookHound:
Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.


My "obsolete" SpecWar2 SWR suppressor still does an excellent job!
I use it on 10.5", 11.5", and 14.5" SBRs.



cchurchi
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Posted: 6/10/2010 10:11:20 PM
Nope, that thing is obsolete. Send it to me immediately! In fact, sent that obsolete rifle too.
justsumdude
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Posted: 6/10/2010 11:03:10 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. It's really nice having a place like this to go when you step outside your comfort zone on a new build.
Messiah
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Posted: 6/10/2010 11:16:43 PM
Originally Posted By RTS:
Definitely Ops Inc 16th for an SBR, imo. 11.5" minimum.


Crappy cell phone pic. I'll try to get better pics Mark.



Just a mock up pic to see if I milled the rail enough to fully seat the suppressor. There is less then a 1/8th of an inch of space between the suppressor and rail. Not too bad for not having the suppressor there. I can't wait for the paperwork to clear. It might be a little longer then a M4-2000 but I can't tell the difference in weight.
Green0
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Posted: 6/11/2010 4:13:19 AM
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I agree with the Major (who would disagree?)

I guess I will disagree. I can tell a noticeable difference between many 5.56 suppressors. Just the other day I was shooting an M4-1000 and an M4-2000 on a 16" DI AR. The exact same rifle was used with the same different types of ammo. There was a noticeable difference both as the shooter and standing to either side of the shooter. The M4-2000 was noticeably quieter.

I agree the loudest noise with a 5.56 suppressor is the supersonic crack of the bullet but there IS a noticeable difference in the blast reduction between some suppressors. But what do I know? I only shot 20K+ 5.56 rounds last year.

And speaking of "old technology", some older technology is still an incredible performer today. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.

Mark


I agree, there are two noises to be concerned with and those are the environmental sound and the sound at the shooters ear. They vary from suppressor to suppressor, in my experience.

I'd personally rather have a silencer that was quiet at my ear. The 16th model having less blowback means it must really be pretty slick silencer- they outperform most at the muzzle and silencers that have good performance on both ends are fairly rare.
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S-1
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Posted: 6/11/2010 6:37:03 AM
If the can is going to be mounted on an SBR the majority of the time, durability should be the #1 priority. The KAC NT4 is the leader in that category. It's heavy, but it's built like a tank and has proved itself by being used and abused by SOCOM on 10.5" barrels for years.

Also, don't go by the DB ratings from the manufacturers or tests. They all rate pretty close, but the main difference in sound is the tone of the suppressor. Some are higher pitched where others have a deeper 'thump' to them, such as the NT4. The deeper tone sounds more pleasant to me than the higher pitched cans, even though the higher pitched cans may have a better DB rating. If you are able to, take a listen to several before you make the purchase.
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bluefalcon
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Posted: 6/11/2010 11:13:40 AM
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I agree with the Major (who would disagree?)

I guess I will disagree. I can tell a noticeable difference between many 5.56 suppressors. Just the other day I was shooting an M4-1000 and an M4-2000 on a 16" DI AR. The exact same rifle was used with the same different types of ammo. There was a noticeable difference both as the shooter and standing to either side of the shooter. The M4-2000 was noticeably quieter.

I agree the loudest noise with a 5.56 suppressor is the supersonic crack of the bullet but there IS a noticeable difference in the blast reduction between some suppressors. But what do I know? I only shot 20K+ 5.56 rounds last year.

And speaking of "old technology", some older technology is still an incredible performer today. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.

Mark


Mark, I have only shot a couple different 5.56mm suppressors and have been told that my FA556AR is on the louder end of the scale. It's quiet enough, though that it is very close to an unsuppressed .22lr. Although other cans could be noticeably quieter, is there really so much of a difference as to put the suppression level at the top of the list for most people, especially for a someone who intends to use the can on an SBR? I guess what we're saying is that nobody wants a loud can, but for this application, durability, weight, and length should probably be considered before sound reduction. Do you agree?
Is it 2012 yet?

I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask none to live for me, nor do I live for any others. I covet no man's soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet. - Ayn Rand
M4gerySBR
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Posted: 6/11/2010 11:59:59 AM
I run a 10.5 LMT with an AAC M4 2000 (breakeout mount) and it has no problems (I just put up a post about erosion, yes it's real, no don't worry about it). I like the LMT over may others because it has a smaller gas port, this will help with the guns cycling when firing suppressed. You combine that with an H buffer (the H2 would not cycle with my lighter loads unsuppressed) and you have a soft shooting reliable SBR. There are lots of great options but trust me, a 10.5 is fine if thats your preference.

BookHound
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Posted: 6/11/2010 1:03:26 PM

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I agree with the Major (who would disagree?)

I guess I will disagree. I can tell a noticeable difference between many 5.56 suppressors. Just the other day I was shooting an M4-1000 and an M4-2000 on a 16" DI AR. The exact same rifle was used with the same different types of ammo. There was a noticeable difference both as the shooter and standing to either side of the shooter. The M4-2000 was noticeably quieter.

I agree the loudest noise with a 5.56 suppressor is the supersonic crack of the bullet but there IS a noticeable difference in the blast reduction between some suppressors. But what do I know? I only shot 20K+ 5.56 rounds last year.

And speaking of "old technology", some older technology is still an incredible performer today. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better.

Mark


Mark, I have only shot a couple different 5.56mm suppressors and have been told that my FA556AR is on the louder end of the scale. It's quiet enough, though that it is very close to an unsuppressed .22lr. Although other cans could be noticeably quieter, is there really so much of a difference as to put the suppression level at the top of the list for most people, especially for a someone who intends to use the can on an SBR? I guess what we're saying is that nobody wants a loud can, but for this application, durability, weight, and length should probably be considered before sound reduction. Do you agree?

I never stated I put suppression level at the top of my considerations.

To directly answer your question, if I had to rank the criterion you listed for this application, I'd put them in order of durability, length, sound reduction, weight. But I also think you are missing some considerations.

For a 5.56 suppressor I want something that is durable, well made, has a good mounting system, small potential for POI shift, repeatable POI shift, low back pressure and "hearing safe" sound reduction. I agree that sound reduction is one of the least of my concerns. I don't worry much about weight except for weapon balance. Lighter is something I'd rather have but I am not overly worried about a few ounces on a shorter weapon. On longer barrels a heavier suppressor might be more likely to change barrel harmonics and, thus, give more chance of a POI shift. I think most guys who have actually shot heavier suppressors on SBRs will agree since the weight isn't very far away from the shooter and is closer to the center of the weapon. To discount a fine product like an Ops Inc 16th Model because it is "older technology" or slightly heavier weight is a mistake.

The Ops 16th Should really be compared more with the SPR/M4 than the M42K anyway as they are the more similar in design. Here is some info for the truly curious among us...

Ops Inc 16th Model
Weight: 20.1 oz
Mount (collar, brake and washer) weight: 4.0 oz
Total combined weight: 24.1 oz
Length: 8-3/8"
Length added to host: 4.5"

AAC SPR/M4
Weight: 19.2 oz
Mount (MITER Blackout) weight: 4.4 oz
Total combined weight: 23.6 oz
Length: 8-9/16"
Length added to host: 4.5"

AAC M4-2000
Weight: 16.9 oz
Mount (Blackout) weight: 4.3 oz
Total combined weight: 21.2 oz
Length: 6-11/16"
Length added to host: 4.5"


The SPR/M4 and M4-2000 use Inconel cores. The Ops product is all SS. I have shot my personal 16th Model on a select-fire M4 for years and the muzzle brake has taken a lot of abuse. There is some erosion noticeable in the suppressor but not much at all.

Too many people use dB numbers as a way of measuring sound performance of a suppressor. Unfortunately, the meter doesn't tell us things like tone, sound duration, frequency, etc. I have two whistles here - one a dog whistle and the other is the one I carry hiking. If I take the wrong whistle hiking and need to get a humans attention for some help, it should would suck to find that dog whistle in my pack. Get the point about frequency? Try to hear different products for yourself and form your own opinions. Also, understand we all have some hearing loss so what we "hear" with a suppressor might sound a little different to each of us.

So, I VERY much disagree with statements like "All 5.56 cans provide similar sound reduction". That is certainly not my experience. I also disagree that a suppressor has to have Inconel to be durable. That has not been my experience. I do agree Inconel is a better material for erosion but the material used in a product isn't the only component to durability.

I typed all this out between phone calls so sorry if it rambles a bit or if I missed something. I hope the information helps. Oh, and for the record I personally own a 16th Model and M4-2000 on Form 4s.

Mark






"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." R. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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m1garand30064
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Posted: 6/11/2010 1:14:19 PM
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I agree with the Major (who would disagree?)

Iguess I will disagree. I can tell a noticeable difference between many5.56 suppressors. Just the other day I was shooting an M4-1000 and anM4-2000 on a 16" DI AR. The exact same rifle was used with the samedifferent types of ammo. There was a noticeable difference both as theshooter and standing to either side of the shooter. The M4-2000 wasnoticeably quieter.

I agree the loudest noise with a 5.56suppressor is the supersonic crack of the bullet but there IS anoticeable difference in the blast reduction between some suppressors.But what do I know? I only shot 20K+ 5.56 rounds last year.

Andspeaking of "old technology", some older technology is still anincredible performer today. Just because something is newer doesn'tmean it is better.

Mark


Mark, I have onlyshot a couple different 5.56mm suppressors and have been told that myFA556AR is on the louder end of the scale. It's quiet enough, thoughthat it is very close to an unsuppressed .22lr. Although other canscould be noticeably quieter, is there really so much of a difference asto put the suppression level at the top of the list for most people,especially for a someone who intends to use the can on an SBR? I guesswhat we're saying is that nobody wants a loud can, but for thisapplication, durability, weight, and length should probably beconsidered before sound reduction. Do you agree?

I never stated I put suppression level at the top of my considerations.

To directly answer your question, if I had to rank the criterion you listed for this application, I'd put them in order of durability, length, sound reduction, weight. But I also think you are missing some considerations.

For a 5.56 suppressor I want something that is durable, well made, has a good mounting system, small potential for POI shift, repeatable POI shift, low back pressure and "hearing safe" sound reduction. I agree that sound reduction is one of the least of my concerns. I don't worry much about weight except for weapon balance. Lighter is something I'd rather have but I am not overly worried about a few ounces on a shorter weapon. On longer barrels a heavier suppressor might be more likely to change barrel harmonics and, thus, give more chance of a POI shift. I think most guys who have actually shot heavier suppressors on SBRs will agree since the weight isn't very far away from the shooter and is closer to the center of the weapon. To discount a fine product like an Ops Inc 16th Model because it is "older technology" or slightly heavier weight is a mistake.

The Ops 16th Should really be compared more with the SPR/M4 than the M42K anyway as they are the more similar in design. Here is some info for the truly curious among us...

Ops Inc 16th Model
Weight: 20.1 oz
Mount (collar, brake and washer) weight: 4.0 oz
Total combined weight: 24.1 oz
Length: 8-3/8"
Length added to host: 4.5"

AAC SPR/M4
Weight: 19.2 oz
Mount (MITER Blackout) weight: 4.4 oz
Total combined weight: 23.6 oz
Length: 8-9/16"
Length added to host: 4.5"

AAC M4-2000
Weight: 16.9 oz
Mount (Blackout) weight: 4.3 oz
Total combined weight: 21.2 oz
Length: 6-11/16"
Length added to host: 4.5"


The SPR/M4 and M4-2000 use Inconel cores. The Ops product is all SS. I have shot my personal 16th Model on a select-fire M4 for years and the muzzle brake has taken a lot of abuse. There is some erosion noticeable in the suppressor but not much at all.

Too many people use dB numbers as a way of measuring sound performance of a suppressor. Unfortunately, the meter doesn't tell us things like tone, sound duration, frequency, etc. I have two whistles here - one a dog whistle and the other is the one I carry hiking. If I take the wrong whistle hiking and need to get a humans attention for some help, it should would suck to find that dog whistle in my pack. Get the point about frequency? Try to hear different products for yourself and form your own opinions. Also, understand we all have some hearing loss so what we "hear" with a suppressor might sound a little different to each of us.

So, I VERY much disagree with statements like "All 5.56 cans provide similar sound reduction". That is certainly not my experience. I also disagree that a suppressor has to have Inconel to be durable. That has not been my experience. I do agree Inconel is a better material for erosion but the material used in a product isn't the only component to durability.

I typed all this out between phone calls so sorry if it rambles a bit or if I missed something. I hope the information helps. Oh, and for the record I personally own a 16th Model and M4-2000 on Form 4s.

Mark








I'm really surprised how little pub the ops inc silencers get. It seems no one knows about them even though they are top performers.
WI57
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Posted: 6/11/2010 7:23:51 PM
I run AAC M4-2000s on my 10.5" SBRs.



Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
Green0
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Posted: 6/11/2010 7:56:20 PM
Originally Posted By m1garand30064:
I'm really surprised how little pub the ops inc silencers get. It seems no one knows about them even though they are top performers.


Well it might not hurt for Ops to put the 16th model on the website. We have a similar and soon to be rectified problem of 3 5.56 cans not on the site.

The specs were surprising. The combined total system weight should be the only interesting statistic. Length past the crown should be measured but a lot of people use length added derived from longer than stock muzzle devices.

A note on the Surefire I think is worthy of mention is Robert Silvers did meter it years ago and found it to meter something like 137.8db at the shooters right ear. That in my opinion is good in comparison with silencers that might not be hearing safe at the ear. The Ops obviously has it beat in both mil-std 1 meter left and right ear categories and the Surefire is competing with lighter weight.
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ian187
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Posted: 6/11/2010 10:13:52 PM
Originally Posted By m1garand30064:


I'm really surprised how little pub the ops inc silencers get. It seems no one knows about them even though they are top performers.



No marketing budget or flashy trinkets.


I like being able to call Ron with a question or harebrained idea and get actual feedback.




TheBigStink
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Posted: 6/12/2010 11:20:52 AM
Originally Posted By ian187:
Originally Posted By m1garand30064:


I'm really surprised how little pub the ops inc silencers get. It seems no one knows about them even though they are top performers.



No marketing budget or flashy trinkets.


I like being able to call Ron with a question or harebrained idea and get actual feedback.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2wnnxvo.jpg



that and they aren't exactly "bolt on" suppressors, you may have do a little something to your barrel to get em to work

I'd love to have one though and would of but my dealer couldn't get a hold of them at the time.

So I got stuck with an spr m4
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