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Posted: 12/12/2001 5:58:30 PM EDT
If you could only buy one of the following, which would you buy and why?

Colt M1911A1
or
H&K USP Tactical

The magazine capacity is no big deal to me. I have to go buy my handgun to process my license paperwork, but I cannot shoot without a license duh! I shot a 1911 during my NRA course and I really liked it. Decided my first pistol is going to be a .45ACP and have narrowed down to these two models but am just seeking insight of owners of both.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:06:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:09:06 PM EDT
I went with the 1911A1 but not with a Colt. I was between Kimber and Springfield Armory.

I'm a tinker gunsmith and there's nothing you can't tweek on the 1911A1. I've changed out the springs, trigger, sear, hammer, and grips/grip screws. The barrel, sights and mag well are next.

The K&K is one fine pistol as well.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:11:00 PM EDT
Just my opinion, but I'd take, hands down, the HK Tactical.

It's as fine of a .45 available anywhere. For me, it's what the Mark23 should have been more closely modeled after.

It's basically a USP delux. Barrel bushing, I believe. Supressor mounting ability. Great sights, and a nice full sized pistol. The HK Hostile Environment coating is some of the best in the business. Also, the HK's have, and I'm sure I don't have the proper terminology, inverted rifling. Instead of rifling cut in to the barrel, the HK's have theirs as external rifling, sitting slightly higher than the surface of the barrel. This makes for a much longer lasting barrel, and cleaning them is beyond easy.

Absolutely love HK's. Fantastic, world class combat weapons.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:13:25 PM EDT
have you tried/considered the Sig 220 in 45acp? My Sig will shoot as tight as my series 80 Colt Goldcup and is more reliable, i.e. the sights shooting loose on the goldcup.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:20:52 PM EDT
I have a 1911 and a H&K Tactical. I prefer the tactical.
It has been refined after over 100 years of SA pistol design rather than "fixed" over the years like the 1911.

The 1911 is a fine design but the modern pistols of the 1990's are better. The Sig is probably even better.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:24:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:25:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:27:21 PM EDT
Sig P-220
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:30:00 PM EDT
If you like the 1911 style pistol the springfield loaded is hard to beat for the price. IMHO ........ but then I carry a pre 70 series colt
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:46:05 PM EDT
I've heard many people say that they've changed this or that on their 1911. Why? Because they can. There probably isn't a more copied or more readily available firearm for tinkering with. Mine? I have an 88 year old 1911 (not an A1), that is soon to be 89. I'll bet it will go 88 more. The only thing I've replaced on it were the springs. Oh yeah, I put synthetic grips on it and keep the old wooden ones in the closet. It shoots and it shoots and it shoots. The only time my 1911 plays second fiddle is when my clothing requires a smaller pistol and then I carry my Officers model.
The choice is yours. Whichever you buy I hope that you are happy.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:51:33 PM EDT
1911, but go with a custom. 1911 is the design of a gun. Just like Bolt Action, there are many different types.

I've got a Kimber and it out performed all the 100 years of engineered Glocks I was up against in two training sessions. I asked the instructor why he didn't use a 1911 and he replied, "they're unreliable, I need something I can rely on at all times". Not five minutes later he has a FTF. I've got the sessions on tape and I never stop laughing. In fact every Glock had an FTF or FTE during the range sessions. My Kimber...0!

You see, I can tweak and piddle with every piece and part on my Kimber. Wan't the casings ejected this way or that, a little tweak on the extractor. In fact, the extractor is the only part I have tweaked on the gun.

With a custom 1911 you get better triggers, fit, slimmer design, and the damn accessories like magazines, or parts don't cost much. Best type of mag will cost $25 on a bad day. Plus, my Kimber just runs smooth!

Another argument is that 1911's need tweaking. 1911's are like classic cars. You can know every detail about them and trick them out. Find the best magazine and ammo combinations, grips, and parts.

Link Posted: 12/12/2001 6:55:50 PM EDT
From a Purist point of view there is no greater handgun than the 1911 - but as other's have mentioned, Colt guns are junk - look at Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Springfield Loaded, etc.

From a Shooter's point of view - which one do you shoot well and are you comfortable with? I believe the HK is thicker, where the 1911 is slim, the 1911 is probably longer than the HK from the mainspring to the muzzle. Buy what you shoot well and are comfortable with as a target gun, carry gun, whatever... Just because other folk here like one or the other should only be a guide as to the quality of the arm not how well you will like it.

Ryan
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:21:02 PM EDT
I chose a USPC because it had a linkless ramped barrel and had the HE finish. You can have these done to a 1911 or get a ParaOrdinance or a Springfield Linkless if you really want to look hard, but I didn't feel like futzing with things. If you get the fullsize USP or Tac, you can supposedly shoot .45Super with no modifications, so that's nice too.

I am not thrilled with the trigger, but am well pleased with the USP overall.

But you already said that you like the 1911, and the 1911 is a slick shooting pistol. Maybe try a USP, and if it turns out you still like the 1911 then get it.

When I got my first pistol, I headed into the store bound and determined to get a Glock 20. I walked out with a Hi-power, and while the Glock is great, I have never regretted buying the Half-power. It's a beauty.

Have fun.

Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:26:28 PM EDT
Kimber...'cause I can shoot it better than a Glock or SIG.

I've only briefly shot the H&K .45acp & do remember that it had very little felt recoil...but I prefer the single stack of the Kimber...it fits my hands better.

Try both before you buy....or ideally, buy both!
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:33:19 PM EDT
i plink with the colt,
i have kimber for serious shooting, glock for taking abuse.
hk over the colt.

my brother inlaw wanted to move from a 9 to a 45, only had one 9 and wanted only one 45. after several trips to the range and renting various models he went with the glock. it worked for him, he felt comfortable with it, was acurate with it. the rental fee was the best route to go for him. for the gun whore, there are few if any that we don't love, even though we love some better.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:34:26 PM EDT
Remington Rand 1911A1 circa 1943 that my grandfather carried in WW2. Goes bang every time and isn't horribly over-engineered like that German junk.


Such 1911s have more room for "tinkering" but that's also more things that can go horribly wrong at the worst possible time.


Bullshit.


It has been refined after over 100 years of SA pistol design rather than "fixed" over the years like the 1911.


I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the 1911 has not changed in 80 years. Certain manufacturers (particularly Colt) have fucked around with the specs of the design and the size, shape, etc. That does not mean they were "fixes." H&K is overpriced and quality is decent, but certainly not spectacular.


This all reminds me. Most operators carry the 1911 and not the USP or the Mk23. Why? Because they use what works all the time rain or shine, and the 1911 has proven capable of doing that through 90 years, 2 world wars, and 2 police actions.

Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:41:36 PM EDT
1911 hands down. How many copies of the H&K are there?????
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:45:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
horribly over-engineered like that German junk.




LOL! If you say so
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:46:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2001 7:40:22 PM EDT by Bushmaster_223]
Get a SA 1911. Redmanfms you rule you are right.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 7:52:24 PM EDT
I traded my USPC40 for a Kimber Pro Carry and I have no regrets. The trigger on the USP was too heavy and really rough. Also, I prefer either DA only or SA only.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 8:24:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2001 8:19:05 PM EDT by Sukebe]
I have an all original Remington Rand M1911A1 .45ACP made in 1944. I shoot it often and it still fires fine at 57years old. I'm certain there is thousands of these in the same condition still around. I want to see a "modern" original anything else that has seen military service still shooting in 57 years without having one part replaced.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 8:32:28 PM EDT
Next time I need to jump out of an airplane at 30,000 feet, land in the ocean and swim two miles to shore, slog through 10 miles of swamp in mud up to my neck, just to get to the place where I take out my pistol, I will definitely take the H&K.

However, if your ordinary day involves less complicated means of traveling to work, go with the 1911. As many have said above, colts are junk, but Kimber and Springfield are good choices, and for a bit more money, STI or SVI.

I have a Kimber CDP that is perfect, and an SVI 1911 that probably has 20,000 rounds through it with a grand total of Zero failures.

I used to be a worshiper in the Shrine of the Plastic Gun, but once you experience the 1911 trigger you can never go back.

However, my final opinion -- get both, you can never have too many guns.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 8:32:38 PM EDT
I would go with the 1911, but not because it is a "better" handgun than the HK Tactical. But because of the enormous supply of spare parts and gun smiths who can fix a problem should something go wrong or customize it.

The knowlege base of the 1911 is larger than for the HK.

Also I like the feel of the 1911 in my hand better than the HK.

Amazing that the 1911 was developed almost 100 years ago and it is still one the top contenders for combat handguns. Of course it has seen a lot of improvements since its inception. But I think John Browning would be pleased.

Link Posted: 12/12/2001 8:42:53 PM EDT
Love the 1911, but would have to say either the HK or Sig
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 9:57:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:17:47 AM EDT
This is great, lots of replies and I appreciate all the input. My only problem I have is that technically I cannot even handle any pistol at a dealer without having my license. Forget shooting one. The only option I have is to find a range in CT that rents the models I am looking at, but then I need an "instructor" with me or else I cannot shoot a pistol in CT without a license. One other factor and is why I am not looking at a compact model of any gun right now, is as some may know a CCW permit in NY is next to impossible to get. Not impossible but something I highly doubt I will achieve anytime soon. So this is going to be for range shooting and one of the many home defense weapons. So far everyone has convinced me to get rid of the Colt brand for a new purchase. Thanks for all the replies they are all helpful to me!
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:25:37 AM EDT
I guess I am a small minority, 'cause I like my Colt 1991. But I will admit that somewhere around 4000 rounds the front sight came off, and also somewhere in there the slide stop broke. Replaced that with a Wilson Combat and have been shooting ever since.

Anyway, between the HK and the 1911 generally, 1911. Better handling and trigger, abundant and good cheap mags. I hate the way HK bones the customer on their expensive mags.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:29:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
I guess I am a small minority, 'cause I like my Colt 1991. But I will admit that somewhere around 4000 rounds the front sight came off, and also somewhere in there the slide stop broke. Replaced that with a Wilson Combat and have been shooting ever since.

Anyway, between the HK and the 1911 generally, 1911. Better handling and trigger, abundant and good cheap mags. I hate the way HK bones the customer on their expensive mags.


That is hilarious! A garbled, semi-unintentional vote for the HK Tac. There is no comparison between the two. HK costs more, but you get MUCH more out of it.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:55:04 AM EDT
Gee M4, I don't see any "hilarious" "garbling" in there anywhere. You on drugs or what?

I also have two Norinco 1911s and a Kimber and NONE of them have broken. In fact, none of them have ever hung up for any reason. I offer the comments on the Colt because other people on this thread are bashing "recent" Colts, and that's my experience with a recent Colt.

Hey let's keep degrading this thread: M4, enjoy paying the HK tariff on their ripoff magazines if you like. You can keep your HK. In fact, you can put it where the sun don't shine . . .
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:10:42 AM EDT
The only rip-offs when it comes to HK mags is for the hi-caps. Which with a 1911, there aren't any...

I have owned many 1911's and I love the way they feel in my hand.

However, I currently do not own a single 1911 and own 2 HK's and the Tactical will never leave my possession. Get the idea?
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:33:16 AM EDT
I love the Colt 1911 and have never had any problems with them. I also have never had any problems with Colt AR's. If you listen to the "talk" Colt's won't fire 1 round without jamming. If you actually shoot one, you will find that "talk" is cheap, and they perform excellent! People love to jump on the "anti-Colt" bandwagon, without ever even firing one! If I didn't have a Colt, I would have a SA or a Kimber. But as usual, people will post that SA and Kimber are crap too! I base my decisions on PERFORMANCE, not on TALK!
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:48:01 AM EDT
Ever think of Beretta in .40SW? Why limit yourself to two choices, both of which aren't necessarily the best guns available? The U.S. military tested all kinds of pistols and wound up with Beretta because it beat its competitors in very thorough testing. I would keep your options open....take a ride to a different state and go to a gun show and while there take a look and feel at what is available. You'll see there are more choices than just....two.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:06:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:13:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:59:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Juggernaut:

Oh, and who was it said the "most operators" choose the 1911? What? Let's try and back this up, please. I'm betting that "most operators" use either Sigs, Glocks, or HK's.

Juggernaut



I did. Cousin has been a SEAL since 1994, a fellow alumnus of my high scool is also a SEAL. According to them they are given an allowance to buy their own sidearm and almost everybody carries some type of 1911. Sigs and HKs are issued, but infrequently carried. Incidentally, the issue Sig is called the M11 and is 9mm, which isn't exactly a favorite of anybody who needs to depend on their weapon. That's what they say; they could be wrong I suppose. Marine SOC fellows carry 1911s as well.

I don't think Baer and Vickers would have so much business with military personnel if those guys were using Sigs, Glocks (I never ever heard of any military personnel ever carrying a Glock, but if you say so), and HKs. You can bet all you want, but unless you come up with at least some annecdotal data stating otherwise, I'll continue to believe my cousin over you.


And Brouhaha: If you want to pay $800 for a pistol that isn't capable of anything more than a very slightly tuned 1911, go ahead. I personally see the lack of customization and ability to fix shit myself without a freakin' microscope kind of a detriment.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 8:14:35 AM EDT
Screw the Colt and the HK, get a good higher end 1911 like a Springfield TRP, Kimber Gold Comabt, or Les Baer, or Wilson Combat. You will never regret having a great 1911.

Link Posted: 12/13/2001 8:23:00 AM EDT
taelil;

Nice flame war you started son ! Let's do some specifics you need to answer please;
1). Are you limited by $$$
2). What is the primary use for this handgun ?
(obviously no concealed carry if you're looking at a USP !)
3). Are you new to handguns where you can tell if you like an SA trigger over a DA trigger ?

I can't think of a better way to rile folks more than asking what pistol is better than a 1911. I own 2 1911's, a Kimber and a Colt. If I could afford more, I'd have more. In Colt's defense the 1991 series pietols are excellent in function, they go bang when you pull the trigger. I assume you've been to:

http://www.1911forum.com

by now. My first choice for a self defence was the HK by the way, but as an old army veteran I never was able to get used to the HK trigger. Even OLD abused colts had a better trigger feel. My Kimber has the SWEETEST trigger out of the box of any pistol I've held outside of a trigger job. The hk can be dunked in pig$hit and rulled in sand and it will work. I would never even consider doing that to my 1911 babies ! The bottom line is, you need to run ammo through each one and see what fits your karma. If it's going to sit in a safe 90% of the time, the hk may be the one for you. If you like to shoot, you will find yourself fondling the 1911's a whole bunch more (personal opinion). There's something about wood grips on steel over tempered plastic also, but be aware if you get bit by the 1911 bug, it is afever that gets expensive as you realize that new trigger may be right, or adjustable sights that are snag free OR you want a second barrel OR that magwell is needed OR . . . .get the pictre ? If you want a proven weapon that you can personalize to YOU the 1911 is the way to go ! Have you kept your AR stock, or is it personalized a wee bit ?
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 10:03:30 AM EDT
If I could only buy one .45ACP Pistol...


Classic Full Size P220-45-ST

The Classic SIG Sauer P220 known for its “out-of-the-box” accuracy is now also available in a stainless steel frame and slide for added heft and balance.


Link Posted: 12/13/2001 10:10:59 AM EDT
Get the H&K. Then pick up an H&K USC carbine.

Link Posted: 12/13/2001 10:13:19 AM EDT
The best one of them all is the Sig P220.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 12:26:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBoy:
taelil;

Nice flame war you started son ! Let's do some specifics you need to answer please;

Ok pops! Ill see what I can do:


1). Are you limited by $$$

I want to keep it under $1k and why I want a model that comes with 2 mags. That will be sufficient for the time being. So the short answer is no, I want top quality for my dollar and try to keep a little extra cash if needby for plenty of ammo.


2). What is the primary use for this handgun ?
(obviously no concealed carry if you're looking at a USP !)

This first handgun will be for target shooting and additional home defense. This will have to last my shopping appetite for a while but will certainly not be my first and last handgun.


3). Are you new to handguns where you can tell if you like an SA trigger over a DA trigger ?

Yes I am fairly new, but I adapt and learn very quickly. I cant even describe the definition of either, I assume they are types of match triggers???

I can't think of a better way to rile folks more than asking what pistol is better than a 1911. I own 2 1911's, a Kimber and a Colt. If I could afford more, I'd have more. In Colt's defense the 1991 series pietols are excellent in function, they go bang when you pull the trigger. I assume you've been to:

http://www.1911forum.com

by now. My first choice for a self defence was the HK by the way, but as an old army veteran I never was able to get used to the HK trigger. Even OLD abused colts had a better trigger feel. My Kimber has the SWEETEST trigger out of the box of any pistol I've held outside of a trigger job. The hk can be dunked in pig$hit and rulled in sand and it will work. I would never even consider doing that to my 1911 babies ! The bottom line is, you need to run ammo through each one and see what fits your karma. If it's going to sit in a safe 90% of the time, the hk may be the one for you. If you like to shoot, you will find yourself fondling the 1911's a whole bunch more (personal opinion). There's something about wood grips on steel over tempered plastic also, but be aware if you get bit by the 1911 bug, it is afever that gets expensive as you realize that new trigger may be right, or adjustable sights that are snag free OR you want a second barrel OR that magwell is needed OR . . . .get the pictre ? If you want a proven weapon that you can personalize to YOU the 1911 is the way to go ! Have you kept your AR stock, or is it personalized a wee bit ?





Thanks for the info. I checked that site and its either gone or down. I really have not done much to my bushmaster. I attempted to install PT night sights, and unless im not getting the idea right they are useless. I needed to adjust the front post 2 clicks and that resulted in the tritium line dissapearing instead of straigt on the post hehe, so off it went. I am going to be adding an ACOG but thats about it. Other then buying up a few more good quality pre ban mags I have no other modifications in store.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 1:14:53 PM EDT
The best advice so far, even though inconvenient for you, is to go somewhere where you can actually shoot the various guns for yourself. Personally, I like Para-Ordnance, but that's me. I also like the USP's and plan to buy a tactical one day when there isn't a long list of other stuff I want even more.
For any given brand of pistol, even the "quality" brands like HK, Glock, Kimber, etc., there will always be somebody to tell you they are junk. Typical Ford vs Chevy syndrome. I have had many people tell me Paras are not reliable or not accurate, but that has not been my experience. I'm on my second P14 (foolishly sold my first years ago) and it has NEVER had a failure of any kind after an estimated 2500+ rounds fired. My Glock 30 hiccuped once when it was brand new, and has been perfectly reliable ever since. I'm buying a new Para Limited after the holidays, and maybe a nice Kimber next year.
If you're limited to just one, then by all means go do some shooting so you can be sure you get what's right for YOU!
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 1:40:21 PM EDT
I just got a new Wilson Protector, the only diff between it and the CQB is the protector has a full length guide rod. Its grey and its beautifull.
I will put it up against ANY non 1911 any day any time. First failure of any kind loses. Winner gets both guns.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:21:48 PM EDT
HK is a nice heavy duty gun but I can't get over that trigger pull.
I heard someone say hi-caps aren't a issue with 1911's how about the para's 14+1 thats pretty good capacity for a .45. for a smaller carry gun the P-12 is really cool 13rounds and a nice shooting gun in a small package.

I have no experience with the new colts but I have a series 70 gov and that thing feeds anything even my cheap low powder wad cutter reloads. The para does the same.


Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:25:40 PM EDT
Colt LightWeight Commander in 45 ACP!
cpermd
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:35:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:53:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 2:46:11 PM EDT by gus]
OK, OK!! Between the new Colt 1911 and the USP (Tactical or not) I'd take the HK. If it were my very first pistol, I'd look around some at least though....
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:17:54 PM EDT

The O-ring barrel bushing... reduces felt recoil


Awww c'mon now. That's nonsense. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with recoil.


taelil, I'd got for a 1911 but definitely not a Cold. STI Trojan if you can afford something in the $900 range, otherwise a Kimber. I have both and both are good though fit, finish, and material quality are better on the STI.


Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:20:40 PM EDT
Not having shot the Tactical, I can't say, however, I would choose the USP Fullsize or Compact over a current production 1911.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:22:22 PM EDT
Absoultely no question. The HK, without hesitation. Run, don't walk!
Pit
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