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Posted: 11/11/2001 6:46:29 PM EST
Went shooting with my buds today & noticed that my BM did very poorly. I have shot about 2K rounds out of it with very good accuracy but today none of us could hit a barn with it. Its a BM shorty with AK break on it. We were shooting from 100yds with peep sights. Wolf ammo....I shot Wolf ammo out of the Colt Match Grade 20inch that was there also & it did fine...10 ring every time. I've seen my BM shoot just as well in the past but today it sucked.

The BM seemed to vary quite a bit in where it would shoot...all over that darned target. We were shooting from bench rests.

Any suggestions (other than get a Colt Match Grade)?


Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:59:17 PM EST
It's not the barrel... its the ammo. Wolf varies batch to batch... especially load to load... I have founf 62gr stuff to be better... but, are you shooting from the exact same case as previously?

Best I can get out of 55gr HP Wolf in .223 is about 4MOA, out of a match grade varmint barrel. 3MOA with 62gr SP Wolf, and 1.5MOA out of the South African M193. Same barrel does .5-.75MOA with match black hills ammo.

So, if you take a 1 MOA gun, shoot with iron sights where you can exhibit (lets just guess) 2 MOA proficiency... and shoot 4 MOA ammo out of it... well.... you are not gonna group em real tight... but you should be able to blacken a 5-7" target pretty well.

Were you much worse than that?
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:21:17 PM EST
I would not base the accuracy of anything on Wolf ammo. Just try different ammo. Personally I would avoid Wolf at all cost in an AR. To feed an AK no problem, it is designed for steel/lacquer cased ammo.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:33:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
It's not the barrel... its the ammo. Wolf varies batch to batch... especially load to load... I have founf 62gr stuff to be better... but, are you shooting from the exact same case as previously?

Best I can get out of 55gr HP Wolf in .223 is about 4MOA, out of a match grade varmint barrel. 3MOA with 62gr SP Wolf, and 1.5MOA out of the South African M193. Same barrel does .5-.75MOA with match black hills ammo.

So, if you take a 1 MOA gun, shoot with iron sights where you can exhibit (lets just guess) 2 MOA proficiency... and shoot 4 MOA ammo out of it... well.... you are not gonna group em real tight... but you should be able to blacken a 5-7" target pretty well.

Were you much worse than that?



Yep...much worse with the BM. With the Colt we were able to put them mostly within the 10ring of a ShootNSee target...some were out a bit to the 8 & 7 ring but the BM we were lucky to even get some on the SNSee target.

Now I'm no expert shooter but the guys shooting with me are. One of the guys in particular is an excellent marksman & even he was dumbfounded to why it was shooting so poorly. He kicked butt with the Colt.

This is the first time I have had any real problems with accuracy out the the BM.

Even at 50 yds we were having trouble with it.

Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:36:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By SNIPERm88:
I would not base the accuracy of anything on Wolf ammo. Just try different ammo. Personally I would avoid Wolf at all cost in an AR. To feed an AK no problem, it is designed for steel/lacquer cased ammo.



Thanks for that info. I purchased a quantity of it before getting any real advice & must shoot it 'till its gone...I've been purchasing brass to replace it as I shoot it. Didn't try any brass out of it but I guess we shouldv'e tried.

Oh well, thats an experiment for next weekend.



Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:37:40 PM EST
btw, to answer an earlier question, yes, all this ammo is from the same batch.

Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:45:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Matrix:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
It's not the barrel... its the ammo. Wolf varies batch to batch... especially load to load... I have founf 62gr stuff to be better... but, are you shooting from the exact same case as previously?

Best I can get out of 55gr HP Wolf in .223 is about 4MOA, out of a match grade varmint barrel. 3MOA with 62gr SP Wolf, and 1.5MOA out of the South African M193. Same barrel does .5-.75MOA with match black hills ammo.

So, if you take a 1 MOA gun, shoot with iron sights where you can exhibit (lets just guess) 2 MOA proficiency... and shoot 4 MOA ammo out of it... well.... you are not gonna group em real tight... but you should be able to blacken a 5-7" target pretty well.

Were you much worse than that?



Yep...much worse with the BM. With the Colt we were able to put them mostly within the 10ring of a ShootNSee target...some were out a bit to the 8 & 7 ring but the BM we were lucky to even get some on the SNSee target.

Now I'm no expert shooter but the guys shooting with me are. One of the guys in particular is an excellent marksman & even he was dumbfounded to why it was shooting so poorly. He kicked butt with the Colt.

This is the first time I have had any real problems with accuracy out the the BM.

Even at 50 yds we were having trouble with it.




It's not the Bushmaster it's the 16" barrel.
Wolf ammo SUCKS!!!! and suck more from a 16" barrel that a 20" barrel.

If you want some cheap ammo in 55gr get a SA battelpack,or you could really do well to buy some SS109/M855 and stop f*ing around.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:48:37 PM EST
1. This weight/bullet type of Wolf may just not shoot well from your rifle.

2. If you have a brake on the rifle, make sure it is securely mounted, and not cocked.

3. Make sure there was no inadvertent damage done to the crown of your muzzle since the last time the rifle shot well.

4. Clean the barrel if it has had a lot shot out if it....

Link Posted: 11/11/2001 9:25:57 PM EST
Wolf ammo seems to creep into about 90% of all conversations regarding AR related problems.

Why is this?

Wolf ammo and AK's = economical shooting.
Wolf ammo and AR's = forumn topics.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 4:27:58 AM EST
Most of the conversations about Wolf are hype and hysteria from people who dont shoot it.

This particular conversation is about one of the things I have always found about Wolf ammo to be true.... SUCKY accuracy.

Most of the time it is Fail To Extract, because some feel that Wolf lacquer bums up the chamber. I have not reall sat and ran through thousand of rounds of Wolf in a day, nor have I shot full auto with Wolf, and it may well be a problem.

But for bench shooting, out of 4 rifles... it functions fine. That being said, I wont buy any more Wolf... I'd rather spend more money and actually hit what I am aiming at.

All my shooting is 100yds. If I had a place where I could plink at say, 50 yds... at reactive targets, then Wolf would be my number 1 choice, cause it's cheap. I dont give two craps about the "possibility" of extractor wear. I can buy a whole rifle in the money I save on ammo.

But again, since I shoot at 100 plus, it just doesn't make sense for me to shoot it.... IMHO.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 12:48:08 PM EST
Well at least there is another person who agrees that the whole Wolf thing is just internet stories.

I shoot it all the time and have no trouble whatsoever from it. For those who want to buy the expensive stuff, I say keep doing it. It leaves more Wolf for me to shoot.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 6:08:14 PM EST
I'll keep an open mind & consider it to be bad ammo.

However, I did shoot the Wolf through a Colt Match Target 20inch that was there & I was able to hit the ShootNSee target from 100yds without a problem.

I've been able to do the same with my BM in the past.

Perhaps I have damaged the crown as someone has suggested? Would a gunsmith be able to determine this via visual inspection? Its hard for me to believe since it travels in a hard case & is locked in a safe otherwise.

I'm going to shoot brass through it this weekend & see how it does. Its at the gunsmiths getting a trigger job as he claims the trigger weight is as much as the carbine weight! Granted, compared to the Colt the trigger had a lot of creep in it. He recommended a jewel trigger but I'm not interested in competing with a 16inch BM. If/when I get a 20inch upper I may consider it.



Link Posted: 11/12/2001 6:46:20 PM EST
How much are you paying a gunsmith for a trigger "job" on the factory trigger?

Reason I ask, is because there is little you can do to a factory AR15 trigger _safely_ and make it tons better. You can stone the surfaces, and swap a lighter hammer spring....

But, if you spend much money on this at a gunsmith, it's money wasted, IMHO, because you can get a good drop in two stage RRA trigger for $85.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:17:13 PM EST
Id rather piss on my AR than use wolf ammo in it unless you like sheard cases or all that lacquer build up the specs are held to a tighter degree in a AR type rifle than a AK so any build up in the chamber or the bolt face is going to cause trouble in no time if you want blasting ammo try usa/pmc/or a decent surplus NATO round for shooting anything MOA or better cant beat blackhills reloads 50rds from 10-15$ a box aim true shot straight
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:57:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
How much are you paying a gunsmith for a trigger "job" on the factory trigger?

Reason I ask, is because there is little you can do to a factory AR15 trigger _safely_ and make it tons better. You can stone the surfaces, and swap a lighter hammer spring....

But, if you spend much money on this at a gunsmith, it's money wasted, IMHO, because you can get a good drop in two stage RRA trigger for $85.



He's a good friend of mine...its not going to cost me anything.

I don't know what he will do to it but I am confident he will not make it unsafe. He did recommend a Jewel trigger but I don't want to spend that kind of money on it...I use it primarily for plinking & possible shtf scenarios.

Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:01:53 PM EST
if the problem is still there check your rear peep sight.i have a bushmaster upper and it started doing the same thing and i found that the rear sight had some play in it.i removed it and bent the spring a little and it fixed it.hope this helps. gcsdborr
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 7:45:35 PM EST
I was at the range a few days ago and ran thru about 500 rds of Wolf. Had NO problems @ all. There were some guys who had never shot any Wolfs so I gave them a few boxes to try out. I did tell them the anti-Wolf blah blah just in case they had some issue with shooting this type of ammo. They shot the rounds and found no problems and wanted to get more. BTW I have noticed that lots of local dealers are selling Wolfs. Wonder why???? I know its cheap ammo, that's why I just shoot it at the range. I just dont belive that its as bad as people claim.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:49:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By GCSDBORR:
if the problem is still there check your rear peep sight.i have a bushmaster upper and it started doing the same thing and i found that the rear sight had some play in it.i removed it and bent the spring a little and it fixed it.hope this helps. gcsdborr



Thanks. I will double check it.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 5:20:12 AM EST
I cleaned it & shot 3rds of Orange Tipped Ballistic .223 through it at 50yds...same problem: about 7-8 inch groups...

Shot some more & the more I shot it the better the groups became.

Final ten rounds at 50yds was around 2inch group....should be better though IMO.

I'm going to try some different premium ammo through it & see if that makes any difference.

If not, its going back to BM for TLC.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 10:22:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 10:16:16 AM EST by shooterX308]

Originally Posted By Matrix:
I cleaned it & shot 3rds of Orange Tipped Ballistic .223 through it at 50yds...same problem: about 7-8 inch groups...

Shot some more & the more I shot it the better the groups became.

Final ten rounds at 50yds was around 2inch group....should be better though IMO.

I'm going to try some different premium ammo through it & see if that makes any difference.

If not, its going back to BM for TLC.



Other posters have hit pretty well on the Wolf ammo and brake; I'll throw in my $.02:

Try a heavier bullet. Bushmasters have a longer throat; shorter 52 and 55 grain bullets can literally be out of the case mouth before they engage the rifling, and they spray all over the place. My V-comp will absolutely not shoot 55 grain bullets, period. The shorter the bullet, the worse it shoots. Once I get up to the 60 grain range, it begins to come together. I'm actually getting best performance from 77 grain
Sierras, and the barrel is only a 1:9 twist - 1" 10 shot group with Federal Match. You're about the 4th person in the last two weeks that has had this experience with a Bushy. Don't sweat it unless you're married to the 55 grainers.

Shooter
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:23:42 AM EST
Interesting....I will try it out this weekend.

Thanks!

Link Posted: 12/2/2001 6:23:59 PM EST
Well the bottom line is: Operator Error on my part.

I had a marksman shoot it today. This guy has shot a 490 out of a 500 for high power rifle matches.

He was able to put 5 shots under 1 inch at 200yds prone...3 of the 5 overlapped like a 3 leaf clover....pretty damn amazing shooting IMO...for a 16inch with iron sights only.

We used 64 grain Winchester ammo & also some red tipped Hornady reloads.

This means I need to practice a whole bunch more with my Bushy!!!

Nice to know that there is nothing wrong with the carbine though....just me. Got some great tips from him today on how to shoot better with the carbine.

Thanks again to all for your input.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 11:13:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Matrix:
Well the bottom line is: Operator Error on my part.



Well, maybe so, but I would offer the following:

What kind of cleaning solvent are you using? If you're not using Sweet's 7.62 solvent, get some. This stuff is great; it removed copper fouling that others wouldn't even touch.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:25:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By Matrix:
Well the bottom line is: Operator Error on my part.



Well, maybe so, but I would offer the following:

What kind of cleaning solvent are you using? If you're not using Sweet's 7.62 solvent, get some. This stuff is great; it removed copper fouling that others wouldn't even touch.



I've been using Shooter's Choice. I'll try out the Sweet's 7.62 Solvent...thanks.

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