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Posted: 11/10/2001 10:29:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2001 11:59:38 PM EDT by ASR]
223 Rem. and 308Win?

26" barrel vs 20" fluted. I kind of leaning on the 26" barrel and like the stock more than the LTR.

Want to hear your thoughts, opinions/suggestions and experiences.

Rem. 700 Police


Rem. 700 LTR


Thanks,

ASR

Link Posted: 11/10/2001 10:39:16 PM EDT
Unless it's going to be a varmint gun, get the .308. Based on my experiences with both rifles, there's not much accuracy difference out to 300 yards. The 20" gun has noticeably more recoil, and the stock sucks. If it were me, I'd get the 26" in .308 and put an Accuracy International stock on it. Put one on mine, absolutely love it. I'd only go with the 20" gun if you're planning on humping it over long distances. DO NOT get a Remington with the detachable box mag- they stopped making those for a good reason! We had to upgrade both of our LTR's with the factory DBM with a DBM setup from H-S Precision.
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:40:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:54:10 PM EDT
Hey Sparky315,

I've got one of the 700P/DM rifles and have been looking for a replacement detachable mag setup to swap the existing one out with. When you refitted your LTR's with the HS Precision units, did the rifles have to be modified at all? What about the stocks (any further inletting required)? Thanks.

hsld
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:25:50 AM EDT
if you already got an AR-15 then dont get .223, because AR-15 is already good for varmints (I just found out my Olympic arms PCR kit AR's groups pretty good at 100 yards! I think about 1.5 inch or something) the 308 is better for deers and such... besides I dont see the point of getting 2 rifles of the same caliber... especialy when one you have is already accurate enough...
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:40:48 AM EDT
I just ordered the 26" Police in 300WM. If you want .223, just get a varminter type upper for your AR15 (assuming you have one). If you are going to be carrying it around a lot, then the LTR might be a better choice, otherwise go for the Police.

Shadowblade
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 2:58:10 AM EDT
If you are going to replace the stock get the 700VS. It comes with the same action and barrel along with a HS Precision stock. The barrel is free floated and action pillar bedded. You can pick on up for about $200 less. Then sell the stock on ebay for about 150-200 and buy the McMillan A4 for about $450.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:49:06 AM EDT
Earlier this year one of the Law Enforcement magazines did a test on barrel length. They took a .308 chambered rifle with a 26" barrel and chronoed and accuracy tested it. Then they cut sequential 1 inch sections off the barrel length and performed the same tests. They stoppped at 16 inches if memory serves.

What they found is that .308 Winchester is a very length tolerant cartridge. There was no significant loss of muzzle velocity or accuracy until the barrel length was reduced under 20 inches. I remember the loss of MV at 20 inches to be less than 50 ft/sec or almost within the standard deviation at 26 inches.

Ammunition used in the test was one of the Federal Gold Medal Match loads which is also a favorite of LE departments.

From the test results it appears in a rifle chambered for .308 Winchester the 20 inch barrel is virtually as good as the 26 inch.

Maybe that's why Remington choose a 20 inch barrel for the most recent version of the PSS.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 9:05:05 AM EDT
Thank you all for the informative responses.


Shadowblade & rahimiv,

I already have an AR but I have not really tried shooting groups since I think that it is a semi that it will not shot as tight as a bolt action without spending a fortune in modifications.

ASR
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:13:33 PM EDT


I went through the same dilemna. Two years ago, I went back and forth in my mind, did a ton of research and finally decided on the 700 PSS 26" barrel.

I ordered it and received it. Nice rifle except for the fact that it was just too damn big for me. Now, I've got a small frame and weigh in at 137lbs, 5' 7" . That 26" rifle was just too big and heavy for me to shoulder without support and that was without the mounts and rings and scopes and mag loaded with 5 rounds. In addition, the grip was too big for me. Felt like I was holding a big round firelog as opposessed to a precision rifle stock.

So I did some more research. I contacted Scott Powers from snipercountry.com and he told me that most military snipers feel that 26" is overkill and a good many of them have the barrel re-cut and crowned to 24".

He corroborated that the .308 round is just by nature a very tolerant round.

His experience in shooting a 26" vs. the LTR was that out to 500 yards there is no difference.

That was good enough for my purposes, so I sold the 26" and got the LTR. Am very happy now.

But, still have not gone to the range yet (just completed the rifle). So the proof of all this is not yet in the pudding.

I asked him a bunch of questions - below is his response :


Ed, the LTR has proven to be a very capable rifle.

If the LTR you seek is of the BDL style mazazine (vs. the detachable magazine model, which sucks) by all means, get
it. You will lose some velocity at the longer ranges, which will allow wind
to affect the bullet more, but if most of your shooting is with in the true
effective range of the .308, it doesn't really matter. From 0 to 500 yards
you won;t notice any real difference. Beyond 600 things will be worse in
terms of more wind drift, but not by a great margin. The trade of is all the
good stuff you mentioned. In this vein, many police are cutting their PSSs
down to 20" so they can enjoy all the benies of a light rifle. They never
engage targets beyond 100 yards statistically so it makes little sense for
them to have a true long ranger rifle. They simply need precision at close
range. Anyway, the LTR is certainly precise enough and even holds moa out to
beyond 500 yards, which is as far as I have experience with it. I am told it
will do well beyond that, but I have no personal experience. I would feel
perfectly comfortable taking shots on a range out to max distance with the
LTR. Hell, the barrel on the M21 is what? 20" I can;t recall. It's muzzle V
is somewhere around 2500 because of the shorter tube yet they used it
affectively well beyond 500 yards. The LTR is WAY more accurate. so you
probably can't lose if you want one in the first place. I can;t say the
fluting is anything special, but the rifle will SHOOT well, and that is all
that counts.


Scott

Link Posted: 11/11/2001 3:41:50 PM EDT
One note about shooting a LTR...It's a Light Rifle. It exhibits more muzzle rise than a heavier first Generation PSS. If you use a bipod for prone and muzzle flip is a problem for making fast follow-up shots there are three easy things you can do.

First is to sandbag the bipod firmly.

Second is to entrench the bipod if time and circumstances allow. In my experience this is the reason the Glock Tool was invented.

The easiest and my choice is to use your off hand to grasp the near leg of the bipod and retain it in place. This does compromise the prone position to a degree. But after you have the rifle solidly in the pocket and your cheek welded to the stock holding the bipod down until after the shot breaks works for me.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 4:52:24 PM EDT
I've got one each of the LTR's in 308 and 223. one Pss26" in 308, and one PSS in 300WM 26".
They are all sub MOA rifles. I wouldn't trade them for anything! Well, maybe a Barrett M82A1.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:21:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 7:00:35 PM EDT by jsr75]




Here's one of mine taken this weekend. Also got a Rem700 in 300 win and love it too. I don't think you could go wrong with any Rem, so long as you get the .308 as opposed to the .223. For me, I find the LTR plenty enough for ranges out to 600 yards. The compact size also is a big bonus when humping it over long distances, unkind terrain, etc.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:37:19 PM EDT
HSLD-

No, I just pulled out the trigger guards and replaced them with the H-S setup. Didn't require any inletting of the stock or fitting of the metal parts. Works like a charm. Brownells usually has them in stock, but they don't carry extra magazines, for some strange reason.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:39:45 PM EDT
Hey JSR75,

If you want, send me a few higher resolution pictures of your LTR. Shoot a few different angles of it in good light against a light colored background (no direct sunlight or flash photos - creates too much shadowing and makes it tough to clip out the picture of the rifle).

I'll see if I can't work some cool Adobe Photoshop renderings of it and send them too you.

Very nice rifle and set up you got there !

Nice AR15 too.

espmktg@ix.netcom.com is my email

Link Posted: 11/11/2001 11:56:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ESP:
Hey JSR75,

If you want, send me a few higher resolution pictures of your LTR. Shoot a few different angles of it in good light against a light colored background (no direct sunlight or flash photos - creates too much shadowing and makes it tough to clip out the picture of the rifle).

I'll see if I can't work some cool Adobe Photoshop renderings of it and send them too you.

Very nice rifle and set up you got there !

Nice AR15 too.

espmktg@ix.netcom.com is my email




Thanks, ESP, for the kind offer. Looking around the house I see no places where I could take photos in the environment you described. Maybe a white sheet outside in the shade? On the other hand, if it's pics from different angles you want I'd be happy to oblige. No light and uniform surfaces here to serve as a back drop, though. Sorry, not much of the photographer.
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