Hey all,

I have a few questions about gun cleaning. I'm looking for a nicer, high quality kit to supplement my cheap Outers one.

1) Is there any advantage to Otis' "Memory-Flex" cable system versus a cleaning rod? My Outers kit has a brass(?) cleaning rod, but I've heard using rods without a bore guide (no idea what that is) damages the barrel over time.

2) What are you thoughts on this particular kit, the Otis Elite?? Do you know of any superior kits? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QVR4K6?tag=vglnk-c102-20

3) Are there a non-biodegradable alternative to M Pro-7 that's not water based like Slip 2000? I don't really want to stockpile a cleaning solution that's going to degrade in 2-3 year's time.

4) Has anyone used Break Free LP? So far, I've been using BF CLP exclusively, but it just doesn't *clean* that well. I'm thinking about switching to a cleaning routine of using a dedicated cleaner solvent first, and then going back over everything with a dedicated Lube/Protectant like BF LP. Only thing that concerns me about the LP is it won't be thin enough to get in the nooks and crannies like the CLP, but I have no experience using it.

Thanks in advance

Personally, I steer clear of the cables and boresnakes when I am cleaning my rifles. I will use a quick boresnake but that is to just quickly get some of the dust out of the bore.  I do not use those for cleaning.  To do an actual, thorough cleaning, get a coated one-piece rod, such as one from Tipton or Dewey's.

A bore guide is a mechanism that you insert into the action of your rifle.  It allows your cleaning rod to be properly positioned when entering the chamber/bore. I believe the guides also help keep the rod from "flexing."  They are not necessary, but with the amount of money I spend on my rifles, I find bore guides to be a small price to pay for peace of mind.  They also prevent solvents from leaking into your stock, bottom metal, or lower (on an AR platform).  

The cables and snakes are not good for a few reasons: 1) you can't use a jag with them.  Jags are absolutely necessary when cleaning your rifles, best way to ensure the majority of the solvents and cleaners get picked up.  2) You cannot scrub the bore really well with the snakes.  I know you could, but not like you can with a rod and brush.

Basically, the Otis is great for the range bag; field adaptability and ease of use are the foundations of it's success.  To get down and dirty, go old school.

As far as products go, I've learned to use two items: Bore Tech Eliminator and MPro 7x for lube.  The BTE gets everything out, is biodegradable and non-toxic.  No more ammonia destroying your brushes, jags and anything else you may drip or spill it on while cleaning.

People who are serious about cleaning an expensive bore use either bare stainless steel, coated steel, or carbon fiber one-piece cleaning rods.
Brownell's sell all the quality types, but the "standard" seems to be Dewey rods.

Bore guides are two types of ways to protect the barrel.
One type used on rifles that can be cleaned from the chamber are tubes that lock into the receiver in place of the bolt.
This guides the rod, and most have a solvent port so you can use a pipette or eye dropper to apply bore solvent.
This also keeps dirty solvent and brush bristles out of the action.

The second type of bore guide is for guns that have to be cleaned from the muzzle, as example AK rifles and revolvers.
These are usually brass or plastic cone-shaped plugs that slide over the rod.
The rod is started into the muzzle and the cone-shaped guide is slipped down into the muzzle.
This guides the rod and prevents wear to the barrel crown.

There are also some specialty muzzle guides that fit over the muzzle and guide the rod.

Again, Brownell's sell chamber and muzzle guides.

Pull through cleaners like the Otis and the various bore snakes are intended for a fast wipe out in the field where you can't carry a one-piece rod.
These don't do a really good job of cleaning the barrel, they're just to maintain a bore until you can get back to your rod.

Another problem with pull-through cleaning devices is that ALL of them WILL break off in the bore, even the quality Otis.
This is why the military no longer issue the old pull-through thong and brush in cleaning gear.  These would age and get weak, then would break off in the barrel, leaving you with a plugged bore and no way to get it out.
Note that the bore snake makers usually have no recommended method of extracting a bore snake that breaks off.

So, for best maintenance and barrel life, use a one-piece rod of stainless, coated, or carbon fiber.
Coated rods are starting to fall from favor because the coating won't last and you have to keep buying new rods.
It sounds counterintuitive but you'll do less damage with a bare stainless rod or the new carbon fiber rods.
The hard stainless won't allow grit to embed into the metal and scratch the bore or wear the muzzle crown like brass or aluminum rods will.

For cleaning, you get far better, faster results by using a dedicated bore solvent.
You can use CLP as a cleaner, but it's really best as a field cleaner where you can't carry both a lubricant and bore solvent.
CLP will clean carbon and powder fouling, given time, but has little to no effect on copper fouling.
CLP's best cleaning action is when used as a lubricant.  The solvent in the CLP soften and keep fouling soft so the moving action can sweep it out of the way of moving parts.
A dedicated bore solvent will remove carbon and copper fouling, and will do it much faster and better then CLP.

What to use depends on how much copper fouling you get in a particular rifle, and how much you shoot it.
Most Match shooters want a total deep cleaned bore so they use a stronger copper solvent.
These have a strong odor and can damage stock finishes.  Most can't be left in the bore longer then 30 minutes without possible damage.
Common Hoppe's #9 is safe to use, can be left in the bore indefinitely, and does a fairly fast job.
Hoppe's Benchrest Bore Solvent is a little stronger, but still safe to use.

Hoppes #9 for general purpose solvent cleaning.  Safe and effect for all but the worst fouling and serious copper build up.

For the both powder and copper, one step up is Butch's Bore Shine or if really tough, Barnes CR-10 which is very potent, ammonia-based.  Benchrest shooters use these for pristine bores.

Here's a good read from custom barrel maker Dan Lilja on break in and routine cleaning:

http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/

On brushes, bronze with general solvents, nylon with ammonia-based solvents, after first cleaning with a general solvent and bronze brush.

Bronze will NOT harm the bore of even the most expense match barrel.  Get a good one piece coated rod or carbon-fiber rod and the proper brushes and jigs.  Protect the muzzle crown and do not enter the barrel from that end.  Period.

Limit bore snakes to the field when you don't have access to your good cleaning supplies and must clean.  Properly used, they are not likely to hurt, but just don't work very well.

I have used MPro7 for years and never experienced or problem with the chemicals breaking down.  It kept it's soapy water appearance.  I found it does a great job cleaning, and neutralizes corrosive salts left by surplus ammo primers.

Hoppes is the mildest stuff I use.  I use it mainly on my .22's and shotgun bores.

With regards to copper solvents, MPro7 works, but if a gun is really fouled up, I use a product such as Sweet's 7.62 or Birchwood Casey's copper solvent.  The older Sweets had a syrup-like consistency, which helped it stay in place while working.

The most aggressive stuff I used was sold by Remington.  It had to be shaken before using, and had a fine gray colored abrasive grit suspended in a semi-thick oil.  This stuff would brighten up the darkest surplus rifle bore with no signs of hurting the barrel.  When finished, I'd run multiple lubed patches to remove every bit of it in case it could hurt the bore.  I'd only use it on surplus Mausers and my SKS.

I have an MWS I use for precision, with a stainless barrel. Have done other precision setups in the past.

So I'm all about the Dewey rods, bore guides, jags, good brass brushes, etc.

I say get nylon coated rods, brass jags, etc.

I have a couple Otis mil kits (the bigger ones) and rarely use them. Only time I clean bores are barrel break ins or occassional cleanings, where I'll probably opt to strip the copper out too if I'm going that far with it.

If I didn't 'prep' then I wouldn't bother keeping the compact kits.

Hoppes and Simple Green work for cleaning. I use both. With Hoppes... isn't mostly kerosene.

For oil I have Slip2k and G96 Synthetic CLp.