Friend of a friend has an IR laser for sale.  Says it bought it online about 2009 and he's asking $500.  I don't know enough about IR lasers to know if this is one of the newer civilian versions or full power mil/le versions.

Attached File

45mW IR.....yeah thats a high power non civi laser.

Don't buy it, give me his info though.

lol

thanks guys!

It's a PEQ-15 and you won't be able to get any support from Insight, so make certain it works. They're not illegal to possess unless stolen. Based on the model, I would assume it is, unless he can show otherwise. They are serialized.

I can almost guarantee that's stolen from some .gov agency.  Most semi questionable units you see on eBay (or other similar sites) start off at around $1,200-$1,300+.

At $500?  That dude's trying to offload something that didn't cost him anything and quick.

He's a cop and says he bought it new back around 2009.  He's asking $800 now though.  Assuming the serial number is still intact, I'll buy it.

That's still a steal.

LOL

Get the SN to Insight to see that its legit first

Insight won't tell you. They won't even tell LE. 

It belongs to uncle Sam.

If he went from $500 to $800 after you wanted to buy it I'd tell him to fuck off, even if it is a good deal.  If you didn't declare your intent at $500, sucks to pay the $300 too slow tax cause it's still worth it

What is an ir laser good for?

Night vision units, like a pvs14. It's your flashlight and aiming laser. You don't cheek weld when using helmet mounted nods. You stay heads up and point your laser at your target.

This particular one happens to be a high power restricted unit.

I'd call it the standard power unit. 
The LA-5/PEQ would be the high power unit. 

Agent Wu will be along shortly to contact you.

It's all relative

True. To me, it's like a "standard capacity" magazine. 
IZLID would be high capacity. 

I didn't think that insight would sell them to cops, only to DEPARTMENTS.

That's my understanding; only agencies. Agency has to sign an end-use or non-resale agreement.

Now sometimes weird stuff happens. There were some early PEQ-15 units surplussed from DoE. They were made available to agencies through state surplus bureaus. They had no such restrictions, and the agencies acquiring them could dispose of them as they wish.

I believe there was a member here who purchased one of the lots that came available..

I only mentioned it above to point out that "just because you're a cop" doesn't necessarily mean you can have access to or the ability to purchase LE/M Grade equipment.

Pay close attention to what I say here, I have read every variance for IR aiming lasers I could find on the FDA's sight and all state IR lasers aiming lasers can not be sold or resold to individuals. Now there may be infractions of FDA rules and people may have them in there procession but they still  belong to the government. You may have a bill of sale to prove who sold it to you but it is still the governments, you may have gotten it from the most trusted cop you know but yes it is still the governments as they can only be sold to government agencies. And yes the government does make mistakes and yes they may not come for it but it still belongs to the government.

Two notes

I am referring to IR laser aiming devices with a output of more than about .7mw

All variances I have seen are to allow DOE and DOD to have them. Yep those are the only two agencies that I have seen on a variance. FDA rules are broken if others have them as of the last time I looked.


AND yep I would like to have one two but until we get the rules changed I will stick with my homemade one or a .7mw as there is no way of knowing if it has been stolen from a agency that needs it to do it's job.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, so please stop spreading false information.

Variances are for licensed businesses, not individuals. FDA rules do not mean squat for what an individual citizen may possess. Please cite the US Code violation for possession of an IR laser.
You cannot, because there isn't one.

Just because an item was purchased by a government entity doesn't mean it belongs to that entity forever. Ever hear of public auction? That's one way they dispose of property. It also could've been shipped to an agency, but paid for by an individual officer.

All government entities (including state/local LE) are allowed to purchase military-grade IR lasers by the FDA. The manufacturers usually have the purchaser sign an end-user agreement, but as I pointed out in my previous post, that doesn't always happen.

There certainly is a way to know if things are stolen, and that is the NCIC database of stolen items.

Many items that are stolen do not show up in the database untill after it is discovered that they have been stolen though, and by that time they often have been sold many times.

When a variance is issued for a IR laser aiming device it states that the laser must only be sold to a approved government agency and can not be resold to individuals. It also states that if the laser is no longer wanted or needed that it is to be destroyed or returned to the manufacture. Now some one has to violate FDA rules in order for a individual to be in possession of one of the devices, there is no way around it. By the way FDA rule violations are punishable with fines and prison time. While it is true that and individual can possess a IR laser aiming device and not be in violation of FDA rules if said device is one that was sold to the government someone violated the rules, hence the device does not belong to the individual but is still government property.

FDA rules also state that anyone that sales a IR laser aiming device must be registered with them. Therefore if the device has been sold 25 times to individuals  and you are the last person to possess said device it means that there have been 25 people in violation of FDA rules. Now that you know this you can be considered and accessory to the fact if you have a government laser aiming device.

All the above said, the FDA is known not to get excited about enforcing many of it's rules until someone gets hurt, but the rules are the rules. They are also known to error on the side of caution, so it may be that a 45mw IR laser is eye safe, but are you the one that wants to find out the hard way?????

People would do well not to listen to others on this but visit the FDA web sight and learn.

There is at least one individual that is frequently on this site that will tell you what I am saying is true through experience.

Again, variances are for regulated businesses, such as Insight. Please read more about variances on the FDA website.

Insight will require the purchasing agency to execute an agreement with Insight prior to the sale. Insight then retains this agreement to show compliance with the FDA variance. They do not want FDA to remove their laser manufacturing authority or fine them, etc.

Yes, FDA instituted this scheme so that, in order for a private citizen to get one, generally an agreement would have to be violated.

Violation of said agreement is a breach of contract between the original purchasing agency and the manufacturer.

You are confusing rules and violations with ownership. If the LE agency sells their PEQ-15 to Joe, then Joe owns it, even if the agency violated their civil contract with Insight. Joe did not violate anything. Joe is in the clear. Joe is not in possession of stolen property either.

The sales of IR devices must be reported by laser manufacturers and dealers, etc. Not everyone is subject to FDA rules and regulations.

You probably meant "accessory after the fact". Good, you know a legal term. Now please quote the relevant USC violation this would be charged under.

Yes, that is why possessing stolen property is like an adult version of hot potato. 

Do you have in your possession a government issue Insight high power IR laser aiming device? If so I no how you can prove your point.

I don't believe you do.

I'm a LEO, and am issued gear by the government(s).

I also manage our federal surplus property program, have been involved in the acquisition process of military IR lasers, understand some relevant concepts of criminal and civil law, and have given court testimony. I also have to know which statute to charge an offender under, for any given violation I wish to pursue. I am called upon to cite each statute, whether working locally, at state level, or with USC violations at the federal level.

I have challenged you to cite a relevant statute/USC which you believe this violates, and you have not. You could even limit it just to Montana, if you prefer.

So please, tell me your plan.

The bottom line is that usually the government doesn't go crazy enforcing IR laser law. But sometimes they do.

If they do decide to ruffle some arfcom feathers and seize more lasers, and you draw the short straw, they are going to take your laser no matter what.

G-men are going to call you and roll up to your house and they are going to leave with the IR laser. Regardless of how you "know your rights"

Even if afterwords you have shown no wrongdoing, that laser is already crushed and even if you win a civil suit for damages (good luck!!!) that "legal laser" will be gone.

The greater issue is that while there may be some legally owned PEQ15's in civilian hands, I wager over 99% of all PEQ15's in private hands have all walked off of a military base and the person selling it to you as a legal is either duped, ill-informed, making shit up, or straight up stealing from Uncle sugar.

The G-men will not be able to obtain a valid search warrant for the laser unless you purchased a stolen laser. Most buyers have no way of knowing they're purchasing a non-stolen IR laser, unless it's a Class I IR laser. Even this is no guarantee, so it's safest to buy new. (This is true of everything.)

I agree with you about the PEQ-15's. Most are stolen from the military.

https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/00/apr00/041400/vra1a.pdf

The above is a link to a typical FDA variance for a IR laser aiming device. A Variance is a variation in the rules not and exception and when you violate it you may be subject to fines and or prison time.

You still haven't cited the rule. People cannot be arrested for violating CFR, only USC. 

hugh1.
You should  yourself with the difference between a rule/ regulation and a law.

Rule = "Dont do that"
Law = "Go to jail"

BTW- I removed the tags from all of my mattresses.

FDA rule violations can get you prison time and fines. Case in point



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October 16, 2015: Vahan Kelerchian Found Guilty By Jury Trial

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            U.S. Department of Justice Press Release




For Immediate Release
October 16, 2015


United States Department of Justice

Northern District of Indiana  



HAMMOND – United States Attorney for the Northern District of Indiana, David Capp, announced that Vahan Kelerchian, 56, of Richboro, Pennsylvania, doing business as Armament Services International “ASI”, was found guilty of a multitude of charges relating to the acquisition of machineguns and restricted laser aiming sites, late Thursday evening after a two-week jury trial.



According to evidence presented at trial, Kelerchian conspired with Joseph Kumstar and Ronald Slusser, two now former Lake County Police Officers, to knowingly make false statements relating to the acquisition of firearms.  Kumstar and Slusser, who have plead guilty, used their positions as sworn law enforcement officers in coordination with Kelerchian using his position as a Class 3 Federal Firearms Licensee to acquire approximately 71 fully automatic machineguns in the name of the Lake County Sheriff’s Department knowing that the Lake County Sheriff’s Department was not going to be the true owner of these weapons.  Kelerchian, Kumstar and Slusser conspired to use law enforcement letter head to create letters which falsely represented that the machineguns were going to be used by the Lake County Sheriff’s Department to carry out its law enforcement responsibilities since machineguns manufactured after 1986 can only be acquired by law enforcement agencies and not individual officers.  The machineguns were purchased for a cost of $1200 and $1600 and then when received by the Sheriff’s Department, transported offsite to be parted out.  The barrels (also known as the “upper”) were split with the officers and some were sent back to Kelerchian.  The “uppers” sold between $3000 and $3600 due to post-1986 parts not being available to the public because only law enforcement agencies or the military can acquire these weapons.



Kelerchian also used his company to assist Kumstar and Slusser to acquire 74 restricted laser aiming sights again using law enforcement letterhead from the Lake County Sheriff’s Department and the Lowell Police Department.  These laser sights were restricted by the Food and Drug Administration because they were class 3b lasers.  These lasers were designed, per a variance from FDA, to be used for law enforcement and military use only because they did not have the audible or manual safety locks as required for class 3b lasers.  The laser aiming sights had a visible laser that could be seen in excess of 50 feet and an invisible laser that could be used for targeting with infrared goggles in excess of 1 mile.  Kelerchian along with the officers used their positions to acquire these devices and sell them to the general public or keep the devices for themselves.



In addition to the charges above, Kelerchian was also found guilty of money laundering and false statements to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives regarding false demonstration letters involving high powered belt-fed machine guns.  Kelerchian was also charged with bribery but was found not guilty of that accusation.



This case is a result of an investigation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; Department of Defense Criminal Investigative Services; Federal Bureau of Investigation; Food and Drug Administration, Office of Criminal Investigations; and the Internal Revenue Service, Criminal Investigation Division.  This case was prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Philip C. Benson and Thomas M. McGrath.

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It's convenient for the US Gov't that they hold the position that ALL non c1 ir lasers are stolen, bet they get that warrant.

No offense but everyone take note. This is why it's IMPOSSIBLE to argue with cops.

Doesn't matter how right it logical you are, they are like robots. They just keep saying the same thing. That's why they follow orders even if they are unconstitutional. They believe in authority above all else.

Kitbuilder, maybe you do, but what makes you think some cops or government officials give a fuck about doing things the legal and valid way.

And please let's be reasonable and adult about this. Don't try to tell me that kind of thing doesn't happen. I've been around long enough to see and experience it (on a minor level).

Tl:dr technically you're right. But reality is sometimes different.

Bingo. Except they won't have to. They will say all sorts of magic, scary words while at your door and rest assured you won't want to bother fighting for that $1500

As I stated above the only variances I have seen were for the DoE and DoD, that said most likely most are stolen from DoD and next some unknowing sold without knowing the variance(still belonging to government). I'm guessing DoE does not have enough to play a big role in this.

I have been posting basically the same thing. I like to be logical and consistent. There are some in this thread who have been making illogical statements and assuming too much.

Invalid search warrants are sometimes issued. That's one of the reasons we have a justice system. Your defense attorney (which will be provided at no cost if you cannot afford one) can motion that the original search warrant be quashed. If his/her motion is granted, any evidence obtained as a result of that warrant will be suppressed.

Yes, court costs time, even if it doesn't cost money. You'll have to make an adult decision.
Sketchy eBay lasers are kind of a no-brainer.

I can't make anyone braver. You will have to challenge authority if you believe your rights are being violated. Nobody said you have to surrender things simply because scary language is used.

If you purchased stolen property, and law enforcement calls upon you to surrender it, then you should. You won't be reimbursed the money, but that's the risk you took when you purchased a stolen item. Your problems will end there unless you were involved in something bigger.

If the same thing happens, and you know the property wasn't stolen, then you're under no obligation to surrender it. If arrested, then you'll be able to defend your position. If you aren't arrested, then your problems are over and you still have your property.

If it's seized and you aren't arrested, you can still go to court and argue for its return. If the agency violated your civil rights in the seizure, then you can (and should) file a Section 1983 civil rights suit against them. Many receive awards/settlements for such things because, unfortunately, civil rights violations do occur.

If your purchase isn't stolen, how exactly are they going to end up at your door asking for it in the first place?

Agent Wu, the scariest IR laser boogeyman known to this site, only pursues stolen DoD units.
The government cannot hold the position that any non-Class I IR laser is stolen. That is simply untrue.

You could've just linked it 
https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/CriminalInvestigations/ucm353812.htm

In this case (United States v. Kelerchian, Case No.: 2:13-CR-66 JVB) the relevant charge against him is Count 2 of his federal indictment.
I cannot find a link to read the indictment, but I suspect he was charged with violating 18 U.S.C. § 371 because of the fraudulent scheme to obtain the IR lasers from the LE agency and the concealment of facts from the FDA.

Note that the officer(s) of the LE agency actually concealed the facts (or violated a sales agreement pursuant to the manufacturer's variance) but the crime was fraud because they (or just Kelerchain) planned to resell them. They weren't just obtaining/reselling IR lasers. I think there were HK416 parts kits involved also.

I will refrain from further speculation until I can read the count from his indictment.

Ok, I cool. I didn't know if you were a staunch believer that cops always do the right thing. However you're onto assuming the courts will.

And the mere fact that we are having this conversation is nonsense to be quite honest. This country's legal basis is innocent until proven guilty. Not get arrested and prove your innocence.

We have been conditioned to think guilty until proven innocent. NEVER question our overlords. Et cetera.

That sentiment is so wrong and quite frankly traitorous it's sickening how some try to defend it. Not speaking about you, you seem like a reasonable guy actually.

I'm not be any means defending theft of course. But it's quite irritating when our overlords are crooked as they come but hold us to a standard they've set for us. A standard that flies in the face of what this country was built on.

It's not just on a federal or state level either. This nonsense has permeated every level of government. Even down to traffic infractions. They try to justify it but saying it's administrative which is why you're guilty until proven innocent and in court, ultimately, the cops word is taken over yours. All BS

Sort for the rant. It just sickens me seeing the direction the country is heading. I had some faith in Trump but I'm not sure anymore. Even if he is on the up and up all the other crooks are going to cock block him like they are now.