So I have a laser from Laser Devices.  It is an IR laser, unmodified or molested.  I need your help proving it's a class IIIb laser.  Or proving it's an eye safe laser.  It appears to be the exact same brightness and has the exact same range as a new OTAL class 1 laser.

Exactly what do I have and how do you know?


Picture of the serial # plate:


Picture of the warning sticker on top:


Thanks in advance for any and all help!

I'm no expert, but the red sticker has class IIIb on it, and the 50 mW output listed also makes sense. Keep in mind the manufacture date reads 2001, so this would be under the old system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety#Class_IIIb

If there's no reason to doubt the authenticity of the unit, I'd take it at face value. You could try contacting Steiner eOptics/Laser Devices for clarification.

You will know if it's a Class IIIb laser - once you post an image to this forum, if it's a Class IIIb laser, a nice government man will knock on your door, and let you know if it's a class IIIb laser.

They will also take it off your hands for your for the small price of your freedom. 

It was very considerate of the OP to provide the serial number for the government man to look up BEFORE he knocks on the OP's door. They appreciate the help.

He's STILL going to confiscate it, of course.

Unless something's changed recently, there's nothing illegal about a civilian owning a Class IIIb laser. Stolen military lasers are another story.

Strongly recommend you read the letters posted in this thread;

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_20/501856_IR-Laser-Law---Response-from-the-FDA.html&page=1

David. 

OK I read them. I'm not seeing anything new there. Yes, FDA has regulatory authority over manufacture, sales, and imports. Now please show me the part that says they can come confiscate the guy's Class IIIb laser.

Aileen did not specifically state an illegality to possess in her response letter. She's a CSO and I doubt she would know anyway. Those are industry inspectors, similar to an ATF IOI. "Variances" only apply to businesses regulated under CFR, not private use, so unless someone can point to a USC violation, that reference in response #2 is irrelevant.

There is nothing but arguments I've seen over this. From people on both sides that are in the know.

I'd strongly urge op to take this down because why invite that kind of trouble. We all know the government has no business doing what they do ok regards to this but who wants to be the guy to fight them?

I've shown those letters to guys on tacswap and they've laughed at them. These guys are selling full powers peq 15's.

It's been a long time and these guys are still selling them. So who knows?

I know. I read all 6 pages of that crap and there is nothing anyone can cite which outlaws possession. It's a myth. Agent Wu finally admitted possession (unless stolen) isn't unlawful, and he cannot confiscate without PC to believe it's stolen USG property. Posters stating it's illegal are full of hot air. Stop trying to scare the OP.

I wouldn't have posted the s/n but, assuming that unit isn't stolen, OP has nothing to hide.

This is not stolen property, nor is it on a list.

Please lets focus on my question. I asked for help.  Enough of the hijack please.

Attached File


More to the topic at hand, I think you were already answered above. If that is truly 50mW output, it is indeed class IIIb.

"I'm no expert, but the red sticker has class IIIb on it, and the 50 mW output listed also makes sense. Keep in mind the manufacture date reads 2001, so this would be under the old system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety#Class_IIIb

If there's no reason to doubt the authenticity of the unit, I'd take it at face value. You could try contacting Steiner eOptics/Laser Devices for clarification."

It would not be eyesafe, based on the sticker. There might be a filter over it to make it safer if it doesn't seem very bright, but it's still probably not eyesafe.

Been answered. Says on unit and should look obvious under nv.

I hope not. HP uses/d an IR laser in their CD-RW units, 250 mW, what a recall that would be.

I've owned that EXACT laser it's IIIB for sure I used to see them all the time usually some contractor or LE selling there purchased laser that's THERE property if it is not stolen you can possess it. Many sellers will provide paperwork showing how the unit was acquired. Just don't expect to get this laser serviced by the original manufacturer. The FDA regulates these through the manufacturers. Nowadays you need a department letterhead to purchase these if your a LE they do not just send it direct to the end user and it's my understanding you sign a end user agreement that you won't resale them to the public from your department.

I had figured you might be more helpful considering your extensive knowledge...

You seem to be arguing with his extensive knowledge and any answers you don't like.

It's labeled as Class IIIb - it doesn't matter what it looks like to you - that's what it is per specification and labeling.

Vic pointing out what he has dozens of times before regarding the rules and regulations pertinent to Class IIIb lasers IS sharing his extensive knowledge.

Like virtually everyone who has hung out here for years, I don't care about that piece of equipment or how it came into your possession. If you can prove you have it legally, cool. If you can't ... also cool. The government man won't be knocking on my door.

People not telling you what you want to hear is no reason to get in their face.

I can read the sticker as well as anyone here.
I didn't ask anyone about legality or what you have to sign to buy it or where it came from.  I know where it came from.

I asked to help me PROVE it is what it is.  Period.

Sure that's easy email or call LDI with your serial numbers . Under a NOD that would be easy to tell though those things are way over powered. Hope this helps cheers

" I need your help proving it's a class IIIb laser. Or proving it's an eye safe laser"

Well that cannot be done by pictures on the Internets. The only way to "PROVE" what it is, is to put it on a bench and measure the output.

Helpful with what?  The question has been answered multiple times and it's also been explained how one can legally come to possess one.

I'm completely at a loss as to what more is needed to be explained.

Well how the fuck are we going to do that?! Lol. It's not in our possession, it's in yours.

Get out your NV. If you don't have any buy some and LOOK AT IT. If it looks like a light saber it's class 3. If you can pretty much only see the dot on what you're aiming at it's probably class 1.  This is under normal atmospheric conditions.

If you need further edification consult YouTube for reference.

I thought you already sold this laser earlier in the month on EE?  Is the buyer arguing it's not a legit class 3? Just curious.....if you don't wish to respond no biggy.

Since the OP clearly wants to figure this out himself.

SANWA Digital laser power meter



On calculating NOHD...

https://www.laserworld.com/en/laserworld-toolbox/nohd-calculator.html

Note: NOHD of ZERO is generally considered eyesafe, though technically, NOHD of zero means between 0 and 1M, and it is possible to have an eyesafe laser that can do serious damage at less than 1M. 
Caution is advised.

As an example, some common IR torches are quite dangerous at distances of less than 10m also. Especially if modified.

So here is a picture of the laser in question along side a new OTAL, new TLR2 IR, and a new Eotech battery box IR laser. So the picture is taken with the lasers pointed at a dirt bank at 100 yards. If the ITAL is a lllb laser, the government is wasting a ton of money because the performance is identical to all the eyesafe lasers.

Is that on the High setting?

There's is nothing at all illegal about owning class III lasers. I sell them all the time. 
But it is illegal to use them as an aiming device. 

Lasers classification has to do with their power and type of enclosure. I install class III lasers inside cabinets To make it a class I/II device. Depending on customer needs. 

Laser classification is determined by the power and wavelength. A class III laser can be sold to the general public if it is in and enclosure where the general public can not normally come into contact with the laser beam or it's reflection(example is a CD player and or burner). In the case of laser aiming devices (class III lasers) manufactures of laser aiming devices have obtained a variance allowing laser manufactures to sell units to the military and certain government agencies. FYI, these units can not be sold or resold or given to individuals legally.

The first part of your statement is incorrect. I will build and sell you a class III without an enclosure today if you would like. 1kw yag, 90 watt co2, fiber what ever you want.  It's not illegal UNLESS youre using it as an aiming device. A class three laser inside an enclosure is no longer a class III device. 

There is a difference between a component and a device ready for public use. While it is true that you can sell 90w 850nm laser to any one it better not have a power pack and mechanics making it ready for use as a aiming device. I would be willing to bet that what your company sells are component (or) medical devices which also require a variance. Check the FDA rules out they are not that hard to understand.

I sell that laser with power supply and marking head that will point and move the laser anywhere you want with no enclosure. Sell a couple a week. What you do with it is not of my company's concern. But if you use it as an "aiming device" you are breaking the law. Here's a smaller unit we sell for direct part marking. This is prob a 40watt. No enclosure. Perfectly legal for
you to purchase, own and use. If you would like I will sell you an enclosure to make it a class I device. 

I would show you other setups you can buy with an exposed laser but Photobucket 


Heres another machine I built to directly mark onto high temp steel tags. 

90watt class IV laser outputting around 40watts
 https://youtu.be/Gf8tadlUVxE

It only has one setting for brightness. ON, OFF, remote Momentary, local Momentary are the only settings.

As to it's legality. If it was a class lllb,(and it's not), it is legal to posses.
It is illegal, or more precise, against FDA regulation, to manufacture for, or retail to civilians, class lllb aiming devices, but not illegal for civilians to have.
This has already been debated into the ground, and not what we're talking about here. So feel free to PM me for my contact info to turn me in.

People sure do get giddy about the gov man knocking on doors.

From what I read on your companies web site, what you show in your picture is sold as a component and not as a produce ready for use as shown. They also sell enclosures if the unit is not to be incorporated into a automated system which I would bet would have to have it's own enclosure.

Which is why I don't have a full power lllb laser in the picture for comparison. I'm not sure that wouldn't be a violation of the ITAR restrictions.
I can say that the difference is on the scale of comparing a rabbit to a bear. There's no doubt at all when you turn on a lllb laser aiming device compared to these.

Laser comes ready to roll. Enclosure is an add on. I will happily integrate it into what ever you need though. I do not work for Automator. 

Eta: The unit  it shown in the pic is a base model. You don't even need a PC for it. I will preload up to 15 programs for it. It will ship to you. Plug and play. push a single button corresponding with what program you want and watch your class IV laser blast away in open air. Just don't use it for an aiming device as that's against FDA regulations. 

Let's take EVERYTHING you are saying as being absolutely true (because I'll concede you've presented some actual empirical data if not all necessary empirical data).

The other thing that is absolutely true, based on the bulk of the statements from Subject Matter Experts, is a civilian in possession of a Class IIIb aiming device who is in fact using it as an aiming device is breaking the law.

(Everybody with me? Good)

Another "absolutely true" - The device in question was produced by the manufacturer as a Class IIIb aiming device and IS labeled as a Class IIIb aiming device per the manufacturer's labeling on the device.

Regardless of whatever the current output would be measured at when tested by a duly certified lab, everything ELSE about this specific device insures that upon visual inspection by a LEO, the LEO would have a prima facie case for seizing it if he found the possessor using it as an aiming device and charging the possessor accordingly.

And now the individual in question is going to need a trial lawyer (they are EXPENSIVE - they spend their time in court and choose to take cases they expect to win) AND the services of a duly certified lab (also EXPENSIVE) before being able to take the FIRST step in addressing the legal trouble they find themselves in.

WHY would anyone want to willfully risk expenses which would easily be 5 - 10 times the cost of a NEW Class IIIb aiming laser?

Like I said. Into the ground.

Let's try this.

I am of the opinion that if you buy a bottle with a vodka label on it, it's reasonable to assume it's vodka inside the bottle, and pay vodka price for it...
But, if after buying said bottle and taking a swig you taste water, and not vodka, the label and bottle does not make it vodka. No amount of urguing will make it vodka.
Yes let's assume it's legal to sell and posses the vodka bottle.

Does the person who sold me the bottle of water labeled as vodka owe me my money back?

Here's the scoop.

I advertised this laser for sale here, notice I also has a class 1 Identical laser at that time so I know what the difference is: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_148/1657628_Full-Power-Class-III-IR-Laser-Reduced-to--805.html

I sold the laser to badclam.  It arrived June 21 and on June 23 after purchasing a few other ir lasers he decided he wanted to pay less for this one.  He filed a paypal item dispute without any contact.  Here is what he said:

"This was supposed to be a class lllb ITAL laser, but is clearly a class 1 laser. In fact it is the exact same brightness and has the exact same range as a new OTAL class 1 laser. It doesn't even come close to being what it was described as. I would rather send it back for a refund, but I'll pay you what it's exact counterpart cost, the OTAL, which is $350, if you prefer. I don't care which, but I'm in the hole at least $400 plus Paypal fees. If this was an innocent mistake, then make it right. I'm not going to get ripped off here. I'm not going away until you square up with me."

I then started this thread seeking NV Industry Expert opinion as to the validity of the product I advertised and sold.  Which I received earlier in this thread.  I also got a signed statement from another well known NV industry expert who has a few NV related patents under his belt.  All statements validate that the laser in question was exactly as described.  

I then sent this to the buyer (badclam):
"I'm sorry it has taken me a few days to address this.  It's hard to to contact people over the weekend.  

So far I have notified the moderators of the forum where this item was purchased and brought them up to speed.  I created a thread in a night vision forum seeking input from others.  http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/479445_Is-this-a-class-3-laser-or-not---Help-a-brother-out-.html Today I was able to contact the manufacturer and they are researching the serial number from the unit.  Hopefully they will be able to write out something definitively here in the coming days.  I also had the pictures evaluated by Peter Lesbo of I^2 Technologies to get his professional opinion as someone who has designed numerous night vision systems, accessories, and holds the patent for a recoil hardened tube design.  His letter is attached.

Please feel free to contact any of these people.  All of them substantiate that the laser you did purchase and also did receive was indeed a class 3b ir laser--just as described.  It was also mentioned to me you need to make sure you are using fresh new batteries as the units dim as the batteries wear out.  Lithium batteries were the overwhelming suggestion.

I hope this clears up any confusions or misunderstandings on your end.  As you should now be able to see, I did not in any way deceive you or misrepresent the laser as anything other than what it is.  Again, please be careful with it as it can instantly blind you unlike the class 1 lasers you may already own."

After no response I followed up with:

"I just wanted to reach out to you and see if you had been able to try the new lithium batteries as suggested yet?I would also appreciate it if you dropped your item not as described PayPal dispute, since we have already figured that part out. I'd like to buy some stuff on ebay and your dispute is causing me some issues when i go to check out."

This was his response:
"Of course I tried new lithium batteries, they're all I use. I even checked the voltage of the batteries to make sure I didn't get bad ones new from the store. I don't know what has been resolved. The laser you sent me has a lllb sticker on it, but performs same as a all my level 1 eye safe lasers. As you know a full power laser starts at 5mw, and most go up to 50mw or more. At 5mw a laser is 7 times more powerful than a class l eye safe laser and is easy to distinguish. The laser you sent me is identical in performance to class l laser. As I told you my LE friend showed me his lllb laser and it performed as I expected this would. The difference is magnitudes. We're not talking splitting hairs here. 1. How do you explain that?2. Did you ever use it? I asked you that to start with. If you had, you'd know it's not a lllb laser.3. Do you want a picture through a PVS-14 of the laser you sold me next to three other lasers?I guarantee you can't pick out any difference. How do you explain that?4. I'm talking about the performance of the laser, and you're trying to pass it off as lllb because of the sticker on it. I DIDN'T GIVE YOU $780 FOR A CLASS lllb STICKER. I EXPECTED A VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE HARD TO GET lllB LASER! THAT'S NOT WHAT I GOT FROM YOU!You've offered no resolution to this."

Yesterday he filed a paypal claim for item not as described because he would like to welsh on our deal or extort a lower price from me:
" So you have not made this right by me, and communication has been poor at best, and you have not answered my questions. I feel you have no intention of making this right. You charged me over twice what it's worth as a class 1 used laser. You won't take it back, refund my money, or keep an open dialog going. You've left me no choice but to put in a claim against you. Here's a picture of the laser you sold me next to 3 other class 1 lasers."

and

"This is a class 1 Stiener ITAL laser with a class lllb sticker on it. Class lllb Stiener lasers start at 5mw and are more typically 50 to 75 mw, or 7 to 100 brighter than a class 1 laser, that are restricted to .7mw or less. I have compared this to both class 1 lasers as seen in the last message to the seller, and have compared it to class lllb lasers. This is obviously a class1 laser with a class lllb sticker on it. The seller stopped responding to me and obviously knows what he sold me is not as described, although he half heatedly tried to explain it away in the last contact he would give. I would prefer my money refunded in full, but would take a $400 refund to end this. I base that amount on 2 new Stiener class1 lasers I've recently purchased, one on Ebay, https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campId=5337559805&toolId=10001&customId=j52ohyq6ix00zk8a00004&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FSteiner-IR-Laser-OTAL-%2F272706985426.m2749.l2649 . I've been more than patient and want this resolved.Thank you."

At this point I see two possible outcomes.  

One.  The buyer, badclam, cancels his claim and goes back to doing whatever he wants with someone else.

Two.  The buyer, badclam, returns the laser in the exact condition it was listed in.  The package will be opened upon arrival in the presence of witnesses and a postal inspector to doccument the condition it returns in is the EXACT SAME condition it was advertised and delivered to him in. Paypal then refunds him in full.  And he is then promplty banned on this site for welching on a deal in the Equipment Exchange or trying to extort a better deal after the fact, and his account it locked with a note of this going forward so others don't have to deal with his drama.

I don't really care which of those two outcomes we go with.  

Absolutely.

Ohhhhhh, interesting turn of events and drama!  Yes!  I've had to put up with so much bullshit in the last three months so I'm bathing in others misery!  

I have the popcorn in my hand!  It's been a little dead here lately, hopefully the mods let this one ride for a bit.

This one seems tough. The seller seems to have some industry guys backing him but the lasers in the pic all look the same to me. Pardon my ignorance can someone explain why?

Now it's a party. 04'er vs. 17'er.

Insert Paul Harvey pic now.

After reading through everything again I vote return it. Guy has a point. It looks exactly the same as the others and every single person here who has seen both even once easily can see the difference.

I'm wondering why the device doesn't appear to be anywhere near as powerful as it should be.

And if there is an instance where a regulated laser performs the same as a civi model I wouldn't want it either.  What's the point?  I'd be expecting a laser that looked like a light saber.  Not eye safe.

Return the laser, refund the money including shipping, drop PayPal claim. This is not a place for disputes.