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Posted: 4/14/2017 5:48:07 PM EDT
Quoting – TNVC-Clasky from the main PVS-14 Thread “The ITT Gen3 PINNACLE© (F9815) tube is the same type of tube used in the MILSPEC AN/PVS-14 for standard issue. As discussed above, these tubes have incredible light-gathering capability. But, the use of the thinner thin film causes them to be more sensitive to recoil when mounted on a weapon. Thus, PINNACLE© tubes are only rated for use on 5.56x45mm NATO weapon platforms. Since this is the standard issue cartridge for NATO, the military was cool with it, and it became the standard issue tube for the PVS-14 monocular. Technically, these are commercial grade tubes only because ITT Exelis does not sell MILSPEC tubes on the commercial market. If given the opportunity to undergo the MILSPEC test, they would most likely pass, but MILSPEC testing is an added cost and logistic.”

I am trying to figure out the recoil impuse restrictions for a rifle mounted PVS-14 with something like the following ITT tube…

F9815SLG – ITT Gen 3 Pinnacle Autogated
Lums – 2270
Rad – 249
Halomax. – 1.15
EBI phot max – 0.7
2x10-6 fc (K), max - 56149
FOM max- 1875
Signal to Noise min – 29.3

I know that the 22lr is safe and that it should survive a ACR 5.56 rifle, both 10.5” and 18.5”, but my question is how does the short 6” AR-15 with 147gr AE ammo rate and would subsonic 308 be over the limit? I know a full 308 is a no go but could I try using subs 180gr at subsonic speeds? I know this unit is not a front clip-on use rated item but I do want to explore its limits…

Clip on is a Gen 2+ so Gen 2+ sucks vs Gen 3P

Thanks!

Pics of the different caliber systems below…

Will spend lots of time on the 22lr’s with a budget side mount system…

5.56 – Should be good regardless of ammo?

9mm 6” with 147gr AE ammo???

Do I dare even try with 308 180gr subs just for a chance to play???


I don’t want to kill this NV as they are impossible to import from the US so cost are way higher here! I do really want to enjoy this at high magnification as it looks great with the March 3-24x52 scope at full 24x!!
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 5:57:37 PM EDT
[#1]
I would not risk it. Others disagree. We explored an option in this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/476217_New-to-NV--School-Me.html
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 6:09:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would not risk it. Others disagree. We explored an option in this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/476217_New-to-NV--School-Me.html
View Quote
Thanks for the link, I am just focused on how big I can go before the recoil is too much for something like what is pictured above
Link Posted: 4/16/2017 5:47:13 AM EDT
[#3]
I suppose it's time I put this information in a different, less confusing, format for those who don't want to look through large tables.



If you stay under the blue line, with around 1mm halo, you're pretty safe with a PVS-14. Above the line is going to break stuff. Close to the line = risk zone. 

If you want to try different calibers, then keep chamber pressure below the maximum necessary to remain below the line. 

Hope this helps - :)

David
Link Posted: 4/16/2017 8:58:12 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
I suppose it's time I put this information in a different, less confusing, format for those who don't want to look through large tables.

http://aunv.blackice.com.au/userfiles/david-Recoil_Quick_Glimps_1.jpg

If you stay under the blue line, with around 1mm halo, you're pretty safe with a PVS-14. Above the line is going to break stuff. Close to the line = risk zone. 

If you want to try different calibers, then keep chamber pressure below the maximum necessary to remain below the line. 

Hope this helps - :)

David
View Quote
Nice!    With less halo higher risk of damage! less halo closer plates are.
Link Posted: 4/16/2017 3:30:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I suppose it's time I put this information in a different, less confusing, format for those who don't want to look through large tables.

http://aunv.blackice.com.au/userfiles/david-Recoil_Quick_Glimps_1.jpg

If you stay under the blue line, with around 1mm halo, you're pretty safe with a PVS-14. Above the line is going to break stuff. Close to the line = risk zone. 

If you want to try different calibers, then keep chamber pressure below the maximum necessary to remain below the line. 

Hope this helps - :)

David
View Quote
Thanks for your help on this! Looks like I need to educate myself on chamber pressures etc. now . Do you have a link to the large tables info quoted above? I will stay with the 22lr and .223 till I can get a better understanding on this. Time for a rainy day education in front of the computer.
Link Posted: 4/16/2017 5:34:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thanks for your help on this! Looks like I need to educate myself on chamber pressures etc. now . Do you have a link to the large tables info quoted above? I will stay with the 22lr and .223 till I can get a better understanding on this. Time for a rainy day education in front of the computer.
View Quote
I understand that once you can get an image behind the scope that you jones to be able to shoot in that configuration. Resist the temptation and keep within specs. If you botch then there is no fixing the damage that is done. Weapon mounting is a secondary purpose of the PVS-14 and I treat it as such. Some of the guys in Iraq were using rubber radiator hose as a coupler to magnified scopes and reported that it had a vibration dampening effect. I present this as information only and I do not warranty it's use in real life.
Link Posted: 4/16/2017 8:55:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I understand that once you can get an image behind the scope that you jones to be able to shoot in that configuration. Resist the temptation and keep within specs. If you botch then there is no fixing the damage that is done. Weapon mounting is a secondary purpose of the PVS-14 and I treat it as such. Some of the guys in Iraq were using rubber radiator hose as a coupler to magnified scopes and reported that it had a vibration dampening effect. I present this as information only and I do not warranty it's use in real life.
View Quote
Thanks, I will resist the temptation as I was doing the math on replacement cost! The rubber rad hose idea is a compromise at best, still I like the idea! I may try limit this to the smaller calibers just to prevent damages, I don't want to lose this clean view...

Link Posted: 4/18/2017 1:04:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thanks for your help on this! Looks like I need to educate myself on chamber pressures etc. now . Do you have a link to the large tables info quoted above? I will stay with the 22lr and .223 till I can get a better understanding on this. Time for a rainy day education in front of the computer.
View Quote
There's a copy on AR15 - just look up cj7hawk and recoil tables and you'll find it - otherwise there's always a copy at aunv.blackice.com.au

The actual chart itself is just something I put together to show the relationship between chamber pressure, caliber and peak recoil, based on a 4kg AR.

It goes up pretty close to the accepted limits. With a little more time I could probably make a "General" PVS-14, a rated PVS-14 and a Weapon Shock capable PVS-14 line on the same chart, but that was just something I knocked up to help with the current problem.

Regards
David
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 1:53:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There's a copy on AR15 - just look up cj7hawk and recoil tables and you'll find it - otherwise there's always a copy at aunv.blackice.com.au

The actual chart itself is just something I put together to show the relationship between chamber pressure, caliber and peak recoil, based on a 4kg AR.

It goes up pretty close to the accepted limits. With a little more time I could probably make a "General" PVS-14, a rated PVS-14 and a Weapon Shock capable PVS-14 line on the same chart, but that was just something I knocked up to help with the current problem.

Regards
David
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Thanks for your help on this! Looks like I need to educate myself on chamber pressures etc. now . Do you have a link to the large tables info quoted above? I will stay with the 22lr and .223 till I can get a better understanding on this. Time for a rainy day education in front of the computer.
There's a copy on AR15 - just look up cj7hawk and recoil tables and you'll find it - otherwise there's always a copy at aunv.blackice.com.au

The actual chart itself is just something I put together to show the relationship between chamber pressure, caliber and peak recoil, based on a 4kg AR.

It goes up pretty close to the accepted limits. With a little more time I could probably make a "General" PVS-14, a rated PVS-14 and a Weapon Shock capable PVS-14 line on the same chart, but that was just something I knocked up to help with the current problem.

Regards
David
Thanks David,

Looks like you created something of great value with your work posted here and on the archived thread. Thank you!

I think you saved me the temptation to try this on the light 9mm AR and with subs in the 308. I will try take it out using the 22lr just as a test and see if it holds zero with the PVS-14 behind the scope. Will have to shop for a eye safe Class 1 laser for the 9mm and use the PVS-14 as it should be with a head mount.

Cheers, Mike
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 11:20:00 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thanks David,

Looks like you created something of great value with your work posted here and on the archived thread. Thank you!

I think you saved me the temptation to try this on the light 9mm AR and with subs in the 308. I will try take it out using the 22lr just as a test and see if it holds zero with the PVS-14 behind the scope. Will have to shop for a eye safe Class 1 laser for the 9mm and use the PVS-14 as it should be with a head mount.

Cheers, Mike
View Quote
If you already have a visible laser then you can start training with that until you get an IR laser. It won't be fully covert but it will work.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 3:47:41 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
If you already have a visible laser then you can start training with that until you get an IR laser. It won't be fully covert but it will work.
View Quote
I did a test fit using a TLR-2 just to see how that would work. I have a crazy strong IR laser but its too much for short distances etc... I would rather leave that one on a rifle that can play at 1km+. I am thinking a TLR-2 IRW will be my cheapest option for a 5 to 100 yard use for the 9mm. At least this gives me an idea for placement etc..
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 4:35:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Is the ACR a gas or piston gun?

Pistons present a different recoil impulse, and pistons do things to attached accessories that everything else being the same(Caliber, ammo, barrel length etc.) that no one expects.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 5:54:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is the ACR a gas or piston gun?

Pistons present a different recoil impulse, and pistons do things to attached accessories that everything else being the same(Caliber, ammo, barrel length etc.) that no one expects.
View Quote
It is a piston gun, I guess this is bad news for me trying to use it as a rifle mount for anything over my 22lr collection!
Link Posted: 4/20/2017 5:41:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 7:34:50 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted: snip
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Thanks for you imput on this. You are definately addressing more areas of concern than originally asked.

Please don't assume that a rifle mount NV would be used for navigation

The idea was not to place it in front of a magnified optic but to place it behind. There may be a reduction in light but I have found that I can view items at a higher magnification with the PVS-14 Gen3P than with my Gen2+ clip-on. If I can resolve any parallax issues this will be a benefit to me using this system from a fixed shooting position (Fun use-not Mission use) Even if its just for hitting plates at 300y with the 22lr

I am unable to use my head mount PVS-14 behind the existing rifle mount optic without great difficulty in lining up the sights so that's out for me. The only easy one to use was a dot sight on a Buckmark pistol. The milspec 3x lens on the rifle mount PVS-14 looked good too behind a dot sight on another 22lr that's not pictured above but then the damage to the tube becomes an issue as you noted

The laser will be the easy compromise for the 9mm AR and the ACR. Just more money yet again for more gear...

I need to get out and test to see if there is a POI shift with the March scope and the rifle mount PVS-14 on my 22lr.

Thanks for all that have helped with their responses in this thread!
Link Posted: 4/26/2017 1:01:15 AM EDT
[#16]
I understand quite well that the PVS-14 HOUSING was not designed with recoil in mind, but a couple of my PVS-14's have Gen2 tubes. Would anyone happen to know what kind of recoil a Gen2 tube could withstand?  Both tubes are Photonis of that makes any difference. Also I don't plan to weapon mount any of my PVS-14's Gen2 or Gen3, I'm just curious.
Link Posted: 4/26/2017 6:58:26 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
I understand quite well that the PVS-14 HOUSING was not designed with recoil in mind, but a couple of my PVS-14's have Gen2 tubes. Would anyone happen to know what kind of recoil a Gen2 tube could withstand?  Both tubes are Photonis of that makes any difference. Also I don't plan to weapon mount any of my PVS-14's Gen2 or Gen3, I'm just curious.
View Quote
.50BMG
Link Posted: 4/26/2017 10:45:18 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:

.50BMG
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I doubt it - Most PHOTONIS are rated to either 500G or 700G - .50BMG requires rated to 4000G.

Scope shock mitigation systems would be required in all cases.
Link Posted: 4/26/2017 12:17:49 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:

I doubt it - Most PHOTONIS are rated to either 500G or 700G - .50BMG requires rated to 4000G.

Scope shock mitigation systems would be required in all cases.
View Quote
Ok maybe not quite .50BMG but 500G or 700G is a lot higher than what a gen 3 is rated for.
Link Posted: 4/27/2017 7:25:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Well, 700G is higher than Gen3 is rated at - that is certain. But that rating is on particular lines of tube, it's not a default for everything leaving the factory.

I guess there's always the possibility it's the design level regardless - but I've never asked them the question. I'll see what I can find out.

500G's is pretty much the PHOTONIS baseline - and 75G's is the Gen3 Baseline - However PVS-14 tubes should ( if milspec ) be rated to common calibers such that they could also be considered 500 G's. 

PHOTONIS do beat both L3 and Harris when it comes to shock-resistant technology, but unless you plan on using it, and you're watching HALO, it's pretty close still. 

I guess in the long run it comes down to planning a little.  

700 G's is enough for most common rifle calibers and will take 7.62 and .308 and those kinds of rounds without issue.

David. 
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