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Posted: 2/22/2017 4:16:34 PM EDT
So I've been curious about white phosphor tubes and am curious if anyone has tried either blue color gels or the Night Combat Solutions filters in the blue variation. If anyone has, is there significant light loss between the tube output and the eye?
Link Posted: 2/23/2017 9:52:07 PM EDT
I just placed an order for the NCS blue filters this week. I'll let you know what I think of them when they show up. I will say as far as the amber filters I really like NCS the best. I have used both the Wilcox and Orion filters before and find the NCS to work better for me.
Link Posted: 2/25/2017 8:57:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2017 8:58:27 PM EDT by cj7hawk]
Yes, with a green-cutting filter, you get whitish light from P43. Theoretically, you could get any color of white.



See that red line? That's P43. Notice you got blue, green and red emissions in that red line ( ignore the blue and green lines )?  If you cut them with a filter, in just the right way, you get white light.

I suggest you don't bother - you'll only degrade performance significantly under all circumstances.

Regards
David
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 3:28:37 AM EDT
What are you guys specifically trying to achieve with filters on the output side? Better contrast? Reduced eye strain? Is this desire to filter the output an indicator that white phosphor is not all up side and that there are also some down sides to it?
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 3:30:26 AM EDT
I was mostly curious what all the hype over white phosphor was about.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 4:16:10 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Frapiscide:
I was mostly curious what all the hype over white phosphor was about.
View Quote

I'm hearing claims that the new white phosphor provides better contrast. I was under the impression from the beginning that a green output was chosen because a human eye could distinguish contrast better with a green screen. I suspect that the issue lies not in the fact that the phosphor is white but that the specific white phosphor that was chosen has enhanced properties.

Maybe David can chime again.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 8:34:37 AM EDT
I haven't actually had much of a chance to try WP over green, but everything I see suggests P43 is superior - Also, post-purkinje-shift, the eye can't see color anyway. At some point, the image will always appear B&W regardless of color - but when it does, green is a pretty good color to start with.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 9:58:05 AM EDT
Every study I have ever read said the human eye can distinguish more shades of green than any other color. Which makes it a great phosphor color.

That being said the difference between black and white is
more pronounced. Having looked through a few filmless WP tubes i was impressed. They are amazing tubes. I am just not sold they are worth 1K more over the same green phosphor tube. Some guys swear by WP tubes. I still use green phosphor. I think it is a personal choice. The TNVC folks love WP tubes.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 12:37:00 PM EDT
Doesn't P45 have a quite substantial amount of green in it too though?
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 10:39:11 AM EDT


Link Posted: 2/28/2017 1:26:38 AM EDT
Is that P43 with a filter to remove a lot of the green and balance the colors?
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 1:38:10 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Ok im slow. Tell me what I'm looking at here. This is just a filter one can put on the lense?

Looks interesting enough to at least try if the price is right.
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 9:48:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2017 9:51:09 AM EDT by HK_MARK23]
Its an LIF filter screwed into the eyepiece. I was messing around a while back and tried it out. Just a plain 'ol MX10160 in a Pitbull housing with AVS 9 lens.
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 10:24:53 AM EDT
i have tried that before but i got a much more pink image than you seem to have , i am wondering how long it will be till people are wanting green filters to make the white tubes look like good old green nv.
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 11:43:22 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnelot:
i am wondering how long it will be till people are wanting green filters to make the white tubes look like good old green nv.
View Quote

...I remember, back in my day, we had night vision images that were green and cars that rode on rubber wheels on the ground.
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 8:30:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HK_MARK23:
Its an LIF filter screwed into the eyepiece. I was messing around a while back and tried it out. Just a plain 'ol MX10160 in a Pitbull housing with AVS 9 lens.
View Quote
Been a while since I did that - Yes, that would work with some of the LIF models. 

David. 
Link Posted: 3/1/2017 10:26:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
I haven't actually had much of a chance to try WP over green, but everything I see suggests P43 is superior - Also, post-purkinje-shift, the eye can't see color anyway. At some point, the image will always appear B&W regardless of color - but when it does, green is a pretty good color to start with.
View Quote


Messing around last night, took a pic for someone else, but remembered your post. Shame I'm not in WA any longer. Took this pic at 9:05pm last night. Cows at 400+ Gen2 6x WP

Link Posted: 3/2/2017 12:25:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2017 8:32:27 PM EDT by Hard_ware]
Spectrograph of wavelengths at eyepiece. Gen3 ITT tube

NOTE wavelength specified on chart is off by ~38nm so add 38nm to indicated wavelength.
Color in top right is accurate, as well as levels, just spectrograph was not calibrated for wavelength when image was snapped by me.



Gen 1 cascade tube varo


Gen3 ITT NE220 not sure what omni class
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 5:07:13 AM EDT
Gen3 P43 I assume?
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 8:58:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2017 9:11:50 AM EDT by Hard_ware]
Yes, it's my ITT pinnacle PVS-14.

P43 s/n:27.2 72lp/mm
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 10:10:56 AM EDT
it would be intresting to see the white phos spectrograph and the p20/22 also , if you have those handy , looks like there is a bit of blue in the green but well defined peaks and nothing in between
Link Posted: 3/2/2017 10:23:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2017 8:34:25 PM EDT by Hard_ware]
I have a lif filter that should be delivered Monday.
This lif filter is used by pilots to lower the brightness of the green instrumentation lights when using night vision as it attenuates the green wavelength.

I can post a spectrograph when it arrives, this will show the amount of attenuation of the green that is happening.
I have a gen3 NE220 not sure which omni class tube I would like to hook up to my spectrograph as well.
I don't have any WP tubes or others.
With a xenon light source I can show the notch the LIF makes as it blocks the green wavelength.
I don't have a xenon light source so that might be my next project

Ryobi 18v xenon spotlight 2500+ lumens I have one of those so I guess I have a xenon light source just need to make a light box for it.
I guess I have a p20 as well, the 3 stage cascade tubes from back in the day.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 10:53:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2017 10:55:06 PM EDT by Hard_ware]
Led spectrum without LIF filter, the filter reduces green light.


LED spectrum with LIF filter


PVS14 photo taken with Iphone 5se image was a little washed out but color is as seen by me



PVS14 with LIF filter installed on eyepiece


Poor man's white phosphor tube
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:09:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:

...I remember, back in my day, we had night vision images that were green and cars that rode on rubber wheels on the ground.
View Quote


A joke? Get the mods, someone hacked SOT's account!
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:11:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2017 11:13:38 PM EDT by NothingClever]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:
Led spectrum without LIF filter, the filter reduces green light.
http://i.imgur.com/9eG16NT.jpg

LED spectrum with LIF filter
http://i.imgur.com/pIZylDY.jpg

PVS14 photo taken with Iphone 5se image was a little washed out but color is as seen by me
http://i.imgur.com/4Pge1VS.jpg


PVS14 with LIF filter installed on eyepiece
http://i.imgur.com/kpXoc6P.jpg

Poor man's white phosphor tube
View Quote


Can I get one of these for a pvs-7? How much? For the right price it looks cool enough to try.

Edit: Is this it:
Lif filter linky linky
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:19:23 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:
Poor man's white phosphor tube
View Quote

This is interesting. I have experience with white phosphor outside of the NV arena and experience with NV but not the combination of the two.

There are definitely some interesting effects in your image.

Does anyone know how to disassemble an LIF so I could get it crammed into a demist frame or something similar so I could try this? I would not necessarily want it permanently affixed but I sure would like to try this.

Apparently the color shift has a significant effect without the actual white phosphor in question being utilized. It appears we may be able to get enhanced contrast in some situations by using this technique.

Thank you for doing this and for posting your results.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:21:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NothingClever:


Can I get one of these for a pvs-7? How much? For the right price it looks cool enough to try.

Edit: Is this it:
Lif filter linky linky
View Quote
I have some that we can experiment with. The trick will be getting them mounted.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:28:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:

Poor man's white phosphor tube
View Quote


Huh... thats pretty cool, so the lif just screwed into the eyepiece? Got a pic of it installed? Where did you pick up the lif & which one is it? I always thought they were all the same, since I saw them on the bay & never really noticed anything marking one as different from another.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2017 11:38:35 PM EDT by Hard_ware]
The link looks like the filter I am using. I got it off ebay for $35 delivered.
LIF ebay

I can't get my mount for the eye-guard off it's on nice and tight, but it should thread into the eyepiece like the demist I believe.

I am going to order some lens wrenches as I have had trouble getting some filters on and off and do not want to mark up the housings.

It's just pushed into my eye-guard for now.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 12:02:16 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:It's just pushed into my eye-guard for now.
http://i.imgur.com/FN86YO2.jpg
View Quote
Excellent. The PVS-7B uses the same eye-guard as the PVS-14, right? If so, they should be able to cover one eyepiece and compare the two images side by side.

I'm imagining that this modification does not improve performance across the board - only under certain circumstances. I doubt that I will want it mounted any more permanently than you have already done provided it is relatively secure.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 12:23:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Excellent. The PVS-7B uses the same eye-guard as the PVS-14, right? If so, they should be able to cover one eyepiece and compare the two images side by side.

I'm imagining that this modification does not improve performance across the board - only under certain circumstances. I doubt that I will want it mounted any more permanently than you have already done provided it is relatively secure.
View Quote


May need some shrink tube or something to make it a tad larger diameter then it will be very snug.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 1:15:58 AM EDT
I did a cursory evaluation of using the LIF over the eyepiece. Here's what I found:

Use of the LIF slightly degraded resolution and/or contrast to the point that I was no longer able to see the seams in a brick wall that I can barely resolve without the LIF.

I had an APPARENT increase in contrast but I believe it to be a false perception.

It definitely has a different feel to it. Someone mentioned previously that people switching back and forth between I2 and thermal imaging may adjust to the transition between two different white screens better than between a white screen and a green screen. If I were in that position then I would definitely consider trying this - it may help.

The LIF must be secure. If the lens plane becomes askew then the image becomes inconsistently pink.

My Omni V image always looks sage grey to me. Immediately transitioning to use without the LIF after having used it, the image appeared vividly green.

I don't think this is any kind of big win but it sure is interesting and is worth exploring further.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 1:17:02 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
I have some that we can experiment with. The trick will be getting them mounted.
View Quote


Awesome. I've got something for you. Not sure if you'll want it but I think it's one of those things that's nice to have around for parts.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 1:19:15 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Excellent. The PVS-7B uses the same eye-guard as the PVS-14, right? If so, they should be able to cover one eyepiece and compare the two images side by side.

I'm imagining that this modification does not improve performance across the board - only under certain circumstances. I doubt that I will want it mounted any more permanently than you have already done provided it is relatively secure.
View Quote


Exactly what I was thinking. Be fun to mess around with and possibly a nice addition to have access to if need be and it's easily mountable/detachable.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 9:23:47 AM EDT
I go between PVS14 and IR hunter so the b/w images cause less eye adjustment.

But until I get some time behind the LIF filter in the field the jury is still out for me.

It does remove the green very well.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 10:31:28 AM EDT
What a thoroughly interesting thread. I like the spectral analysis. Im going to try it, but im a green guy.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 2:58:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:
I go between PVS14 and IR hunter so the b/w images cause less eye adjustment.

But until I get some time behind the LIF filter in the field the jury is still out for me.

It does remove the green very well.
View Quote
Be sure to get back to us on that. Even if you are losing a small amount of resolution, the easier transition from one NV technology to the other in a time critical situation may outweigh it. You can't use the extra resolution while your eye is still adjusting.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 6:51:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hard_ware:
The link looks like the filter I am using. I got it off ebay for $35 delivered.
LIF ebay

I can't get my mount for the eye-guard off it's on nice and tight, but it should thread into the eyepiece like the demist I believe.

I am going to order some lens wrenches as I have had trouble getting some filters on and off and do not want to mark up the housings.

It's just pushed into my eye-guard for now.
http://i.imgur.com/FN86YO2.jpg
View Quote

I bought a LIF from that same listing the other day, I made an offer of $26 and they accepted it. They might even accept a lower offer.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 7:52:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 8:18:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

Interesting....Curious, are not LIF's (Light Interference Filter) still a restricted DOD only item? Did something change? We talking about the same filter units that have been restricted for a number of years that are still listed in the current GI issued PVS-14 manual, the same ones we get calls on from many customers even though they may not have purchased from us.... "Why is there no LIF filter included with my PVS-14 since the manual say so"?
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By norbs79:

I bought a LIF from that same listing the other day, I made an offer of $26 and they accepted it. They might even accept a lower offer.

Interesting....Curious, are not LIF's (Light Interference Filter) still a restricted DOD only item? Did something change? We talking about the same filter units that have been restricted for a number of years that are still listed in the current GI issued PVS-14 manual, the same ones we get calls on from many customers even though they may not have purchased from us.... "Why is there no LIF filter included with my PVS-14 since the manual say so"?
Do you know the DoD disposal code for the LIF? I assumed it had been degraded since I see them everywhere for sale now, but maybe they are still restricted. I thought everyone considered the cat was out of the bag once China got a hold of the technology from ITT by way of Singapore. I don't have any inside knowledge - just news reports and educated assumptions. It appears my assumptions are all wrong.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 8:34:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


Interesting....Curious, are not LIF's (Light Interference Filter) still a restricted DOD only item? Did something change? We talking about the same filter units that have been restricted for a number of years that are still listed in the current GI issued PVS-14 manual, the same ones we get calls on from many customers even though they may not have purchased from us.... "Why is there no LIF filter included with my PVS-14 since the manual say so"?
View Quote

You should be the one here that knows the answer to your own question. I have no clue.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 9:47:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2017 9:51:01 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 10:22:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

I do know the answer to my own question and they are atill restricted, thus curious why we see restricted DOD items out there. Last we were briefed from State Dept. folks and I know last year that these were indeed restricted. Thus, curious how all these restricted items are showing up...I guess we will inquire again.
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By norbs79:

You should be the one here that knows the answer to your own question. I have no clue.

I do know the answer to my own question and they are atill restricted, thus curious why we see restricted DOD items out there. Last we were briefed from State Dept. folks and I know last year that these were indeed restricted. Thus, curious how all these restricted items are showing up...I guess we will inquire again.
I have seen some of your competitors list them as a "DoD or Law Enforcement Only" item. I was under the impression that LE could buy them and would be allowed to dump them if they were determined to be of no value - then they would enter the non-LE market.

I talked to a DoD investigator and he implied how easy it was to keep up to date on this stuff. I challenged him and he gave me a URL for a database that could be used to cross-check. When I tried to use it the database required a DoD login. It's not as easy for us to keep in the correct lane as the government thinks. They need to give us a way to cross-check this information so we can stay on the straight and narrow.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 11:43:27 PM EDT
I thought LiF's were on the munitions list, commerce list, and ITAR controlled. If so, doesnt mean they cant be purchased and used here, just cant be sold and sent overseas without State Departments say. Who sells them legitly on their websites, because i just googled a few and it only mentioned ITAR restricted.

My only interest in these is to try this "trick" out, but not if I cant buy from a legit source.
Link Posted: 3/16/2017 1:03:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


I do know the answer to my own question and they are atill restricted, thus curious why we see restricted DOD items out there. Last we were briefed from State Dept. folks and I know last year that these were indeed restricted. Thus, curious how all these restricted items are showing up...I guess we will inquire again.
View Quote
It never even crossed my mind that they might be restricted. They have always been really easy to find.
Link Posted: 3/16/2017 5:36:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:27:33 PM EDT
The LIF is coded for local unit-level disposal in the Army/Navy TM. Ie. You throw them in the trash. No control of them, they are expendable replacement parts just like nuts and bolts.

The Army tracks spent brass, but not LIFs.

In the Army many organizations routinely replace them during servicing because they are inexpensive (in aviation dollars) and considered a disposable objective lens protector. I have seen boxes full of used 6/14 parts (minus II and eye/obj lenses) floating around hangars, DRMOs, and surplus stores around Army bases.
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