Do the clip-on IR Patrol models also have these features?  What is the typical zero offset of these units in clip-on configuration?

End user upgrades are very very nice for the long term ownership since thermal cores software is constantly evolving for each core subsequent to their initial production as the software engineers tease new features out of the cores.

I can see why military scopes are only update-able at the factory under controlled circumstances as there is some awesome software available to mil/LE people that none of us civilians have access to. I'd like to be able to track the bullet out of the barrel using my military thermals and see the trajectory from the muzzle to the target myself too, but that software is for mil/LE only.

Since FLIR produces their own cores and sells their own thermal weapon scopes with everything completed in-house for both their military and civilian thermal weapon scopes, I am sure there are reasons why the military scope can only be upgraded at the factory and the civilian scopes can be upgraded by the end-user as the FLIR Thermosight thermal scope have already had five new end-user installable upgrades since the scopes first came out and the most recent TAU 2.7.2 core software was released.

There will be more upgrades to the Thermsight scopes too!

Scott, thanks for the info, very impressive features for the MKII and they display IR's forward thinking when they developed the scope and included clip on features.

JPK

 


Meh, recorded video from the output feed is one thing, but video of the actual eye piece is another.


From my brief time using IR Hunter and IR Patrol, you'd be doing yourself a injustice by only comparing output video to output video.  Your view screens were really nice.


 

Edit: Nevermind, you did it with a camera behind the eyepiece.  You rock!!

I got a huge kick out of Scott's reply to my post. For the most part he is right,  however I checked his math and he is a bit off there. Assuming you buy the 19mm, 1.45x MKII and mount it dedicated or clip on on an AR type platform for your closer range hunting and shooting, buy a dedicated night time sniper rifle for the long range critter shooting at 500yds or so, add on a D790, or a 2.5x MKII to use as a clip on with a, say, 4x day optic for 10x un zoomed, you would have enough left over to buy a second hand ATV, but you won't have enough for a new ATV.

JPK

Well, I cracked, and pulled the trigger, I went with the IR Hunter MkII 35mm, just got it this afternoon and have decided we are going to stock a few in our shop! This think is amazing, the turrets alone make it worth the purchase! The Pulsar I have is difficult to use at best. This thing is a snap, and everything in the software is very intuitive, even without the laminated flash cards (nice touch by the way) it's easy to understand and use. Within a few minutes of getting home, I spotted five deer in our south field that I would have never seen with a night vision scope, they were easily discernible at 500+ yards. Shortly there after I was able to see a bobcat in the tree line at the edge of our place. I knew one was out there, but had only caught glimpses of him! I'm glad I opted for the extra resolution of the 12 micron scope! Hats off to you IR Defense, if it holds up as well as it performs now, this should be one great scope!

Good choice.  It's an awesome piece of gear for sure.

Looking forward to it Scott!   I think this is an excellent move since very few people have the opportunity to do a hands on comparison before buying.   That and I have no doubt the IRD products will will really shine in a direct comparison.  

There is too much fog & FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) being slung around the interwebs.   Using FUD, means they holding a weak hand.

Congratulations!  I am very curious about the ease of use, and taking quick scans at ranges within 100 yards, especially for fast animals like cougars.  Can you please share some of your experience at close distance with the 35 mm lense?  I would really appreciate inputs from somebody who speaks from firsthand experience.  Thank you.

I I didn't order the video cable initially, I will correct that on Monday and upload some pics the I've been capturing with it, been using it nightly and an learning a lot about the nocturnal movements of the deer, coyotes and bobcats on our place, they all seem to have their areas. Caught a deer right in our front yard last night, he was watching a rabbit. I'll say this, I have an Italian mastiff and I can see muscle detail in him at 25 yards at night. Found my cat hiding in an old truck back by our pool. It's not great inside about 5yrds because it blurs, but it's great outside of that range. FOV is awesome our past about 10yrds, inside that, it's a little tight. All in all, I do not regret my purchase at all!

Congrats, looking forward to your photos.

JPK

So you don't think it is difficult to scan or track something within 25 yards?  Thanks.

Not at all.  Here is a comparison with some day scopes:

IRD mk2 35mm FOV:  12 deg

Day Scope..................................................Angular FOV (deg)
Leup VX-R 1.25-4x day scope. At 1.25x..........14.3
Leup VX-R 2-7x day scope. At 2x....................8.4
Leup VX-R 3-9x day scope. At 3x....................6.4
Leup VX-R 1.25-4x day scope. At 4x...............5.5
Leup VX-R 2-7x day scope. At 7x....................3.4
Leup VX-R 3-9x day scope. At 9x....................2.6

Sweeeet!  I've been looking for info like this for a while now, looking for a basis to compare the field of view, but most scopes don't provide degrees, only feet at 100 yards.  Thanks a lot.  Do you know the fov of a TA11?


Also, Odu, have tried the 19mm MK II as well?  I really am unsure which one to get for 25 to 300 yard use when tracking fast animals.

You can figure this for any scope yourself:
1-degree at 100yds is 5.235'
Take the fov rating of your scope in feet at 100yds, divide by 5.235, and end up with your answer as degrees of fov.

I calculated it as above.   Everyones needs are different and dependent on the type of areas most hunted, but for me, I would not want a 19mm.  I'd rather have a 50mm or 65mm if I had somerthing different.   IMO, people make too big a deal out of the FOV on thermal weapon scopes.  That is why I made that list.   When was the last time you felt like a 1.5x day scope had too narrow a view when hunting?   Unless it's 15-20 yds, it isnt gonna happen, for me anyway.   That is the area where a red dot shines over any magnified optic anyway.  

The Trijicon TA11 FOV is 5.5 deg.  That is less than 1/2 what the mk2 35mm has.

Another Reference:

Schmidt & Bender ShortDot 1.5 - 6x   @1.5x...........13.5 deg

Only major difference compared to daytime optics is at night, FOV is all that you see.

Trying to turn a weakness of the FLIR scopes into a feature, I see.

I'm quite aware of that through years of experience.   I'm also aware that people's preferences, needs and the terrain they commonly hunt dictate different gear as being ideal for them that may not be for me.  I suggest you ponder this.

OK, here is a different example:

D-740 Gen 3 NV Scope 10 deg FOV  (I also own one of these).  

In the days before thermal came down to avg human prices, this was the go-to scope for anyone who could afford it and didn't need really long shots (D-760 6x).   I've never heard a single person complain about difficulties shooting up close and fast (30-50 yds running target) with a D-740, nor have I ever experienced it.   The FOV on the mk2 35mm is 20% larger.  

The only weakness you have hunting at night is what you don't see.

That's hardly the only weakness when we are talking about a weapon scope used to kill things.  How about positive target ID or shot placement?  Magnification helps just a wee bit with both of those.  Higher magnification = narrower FOV, day or night optic.   No free lunch.   Trading to 1x magnification from 2.5x in a weapon scope, to get a super huge FOV, there is a negative value in that for me.   If I hunted in heavily wooded areas like I see in your videos, maybe not.

LOL, that is what adjustable magnification is for!

Some like looking through a roll of toliet paper, others not so much!

What is the FOV on your $20,000 T-75?

Zingy one-liner ignoring inconvenient facts. <emoticon>

Oh, you mean it is for long range?


Note: LR does not stand for Short Range!

Just for Reference:

SWFA SS HD 1-6x24: FOV @

1x - 18.0° (95'@100y)

2x - 9.0°

3x - 6.0°

4x - 4.5°

5x - 3.6°

6x - 3.0° (15.9'@100y)


Pulsar Apex XD50A

2x - 11.0° x 8.2° (H x V) (57.5' x 42.9')

And there in is the problem with your comparison.  The D740 is secondary to running a PVS14 on a helmet generally.  The D740 is for shooting, not so much for scanning.  Most, due to $$, will only have one thermal.  So it has to do double duty for scanning as well as shooting.  The wider FOV is a bigger help in that regard than it is a hinderance in ID/shooting.

To compare to day scopes as you have, think wider FOV like a red dot, vs 75mm like 12x scope.  Which one is more the jack of all trades?

Different tools for different jobs, some tools just do "more" jobs better than other tools.

I understand now why people say SkyPup must be a FLIR employee.

Dude is a walking FLIR commercial.


To be honest, it's obnoxious.


Dial it back some man.

It's what he owns, so obviously he knows those products best.  I see the personal attacks on him as being more obnoxious personally.

Kind of obnoxious with your fairy tale.

Perhaps if you repeat it over and over again long enough it will come true?

We are talking about weapon scopes.  "The wider FOV is a bigger help in that regard than it is a hinderance in ID/shooting."  Wider than what?  What is perfect?  The most you can get is the best?  Is it the same for someone who hunts mostly open areas and someone who hunts thick cover and shoots 10-100yds as someone who very frequently has to ID cow/pig/deer at 500+ to avoid wasting a bunch of time stalking a non-target?    

Here is another data point:

Binoculars..................................................Angular FOV............ft/1000yds
Leup BX-4 Mckinley HD 8x42mm.....................8.1..........................425
Leup BX-4 Mckinley HD 10x42mm...................6.4..........................336

Would I want to walk in cover or drive looking though my 10x42 binoculars? No.  But they are a damn good tool scanning most areas I hunt.

I have a FLIR HS-307 65mm.  It has a 7deg FOV.  It's an excellent piece of gear.  It does exactly what I bought it to do.  Scan fairly open areas and make pos ID at long range.  It SUCKS in cover, but for me a 24deg FOV thermal would suck WAY worse, especially if it was the only thermal I had, bec I'd spend 75% of my time closing in on cows and deer to get within range to ID.  YMMV, and I get that too.

As I stated, I think the FOV fear is being overhyped by some here in regards to a thermal weapon scopes.  That is my opinion, and I am giving facts, data and my own personal experiences to explain why I feel that way, not just throwing out hyperbole, pics, and advertisements for a specific mfg.

The problem is the blanket statements.   SkyPup is very clearly not a typical case of someone simply talking about what they know.  He goes out of his way to throw fear/doubt/uncertainty at anything that isn't FLIR, has nothing but good things to say about everything that is FLIR, and it’s not just on THIS forum.  He definitely understands the tech well enough to see that there are products by other manufacturers in some niches that fit OTHER people's combo of needs and their BUDGET better, but refuses to acknowledge this.  That is bias.  He's welcome to have it, and spout it, but no one should be surprised when people point it out.  Especially when so many of his statements are made in a matter of fact way, when in reality it is only his opinion and what works well for him.  

Really, some kind of religious conversion has occured, "it's only his opinion and is what works well for him."

True Dat!

Works very nicely I might add!

And when I get some other kit, I'll be sure to use it too...with your permission of course!

Sometimes I wonder if a 10 year old is typing behind your key board.

The above post laid out what most hunters experience in the various environments they hunt. Many come to this forum for both technical info
, and experiences they've had with many different pieces of equipment on the market.  Many have spent both time and money finding out what works best for the areas they hunt.  This is valuable info for people that visit this board in making a decision on what most feel like is a large investment.

The majority of your posts come across as a "jab" at another piece of gear, or a annoying statement that has no relevance for the discussion except bad mouthing a product you don't own.

Thanks for chiming in, if you are afraid of the darkside, this might not be the best forum for you.

Perhaps you would be best to ignore all of them, much less to worry about?

To be honest I don't pay to much attention of your spam adds, however it gets annoying when threads are continuously thrown off topic due to your childish comments.  Much like this thread is being taken in the same direction.

Excellent, thanks for taking the time to point that out once again, appreciate your concern and all the compliments.

We will be out late hog hunting on my property with all my FLIR thermal/NV gear again tonight for the umpteenth time, just let me know what other gear you think I should be using.


What, me worry?

NV forum drama never disappoints.  :(

Back on topic.  All the data from the thread in one place, plus some new additions.


Day Scopes....................................Angular FOV (deg)
Leup VX-R 1.25-4x day scope. At 1.25x.........14.3
Leup VX-R 2-7x day scope. At 2x....................8.4
Leup VX-R 3-9x day scope. At 3x....................6.4
Leup VX-R 1.25-4x day scope. At 4x................5.5
Leup VX-R 2-7x day scope. At 7x....................3.4
Leup VX-R 3-9x day scope. At 9x....................2.6

Schmidt & Bender ShortDot 1.5 - 6x @1.5x..........13.5 deg
Trijicon TA11 3.5x................................................5.5 deg

SWFA SS HD 1-6x24: FOV @
1x - 18.0° (95'@100y)
2x - 9.0°
3x - 6.0°
4x - 4.5°
5x - 3.6°
6x - 3.0° (15.9'@100y)

Binoculars...................................Angular FOV
Leup BX-4 Mckinley HD 8x42mm......................8.1 deg
Leup BX-4 Mckinley HD 10x42mm....................6.4 deg


Thermal Scopes (x = optical magnification, w/o any e-zoom)
IR Defense Patrol 19mm 1x ............................22 deg
IR Defense MKII 19mm 1.5x ...........................22 deg
IR Defense MKII 35mm 2.5x ...........................12 deg

FLIR RS64 35mm 1.1x .................................18 deg
FLIR RS64 60mm 2x ....................................10 deg
FLIR RS32 19mm 1.25x ................................16 deg
FLIR RS32 35mm 2.25x ................................. 9 deg

Pulsar Apex XD38 50mm 1.5x ............................14.4 deg
Pulsar Apex XD50 50mm 2x ...............................11.0 deg
Pulsar Apex XD75 75mm 3x ...............................7.2 deg

Night Vision Scopes
D-740 4x .......................................................... 10 deg

If you compare FOV and magnification, The IRD products look especially good.

Example:
IR Defense MKII 35mm 2.5x ...........................12 deg  -  $6495.00
FLIR RS64 60mm 2.0x ....................................10 deg  -  $8999.00

- 20% better FOV AND 25% higher magnification, at the same time.  I guess I have to take back my "no free lunch" comment.
- $2500 less
- Better image quality from 12um core

This is why I bought one personally.  

Your chart is starting to take on good form. Thanks for compiling all that data.  It's very useful.

Am reviewing the IR Defense MKII 35mm, Flir T-70, Flir RS-64, and Armasight Apollo now, all 640 cores, scope pics and hopefully dead hog pics to follow later!

I expect a very biased review, but I will reserve judgement until then.

How about addressing what I posted above for now.

You've questioned me for months about me directing consumers to valid sources of information on the Armasight scope , funny how you now have the urge to review one - guess it'll be good as I can now direct them your way for first hand info.

It's too bad really that you didn't do this review sooner so that I could have avoided the questioning all along.

Who is providing the MKii and Armasight to you for this review?

And right after the damming data I posted too?  Coincidence no doubt.

HuntTXhogs, if you have the relevant data for popular Armasight scopes please send/post it and I'll add it.  I'm not very familiar with them and there are a lot of models.

Feel free to search my posts... That is the very first one that I've ever posted with your name in it (assuming you weren't a part of a quote tree) and I've been posting since 2005 with over 11K posts.

The Apollo models are clip ons with 1x magnification and they all share an 11*x9* FOV. 2015 Pro models come with either a 50mm lens or a 100mm lens, lens diameter and focal length are equal. I think there may also be a 75mm Pro model, but I don't see them for sale.

A strong performer according to those who use them and have access to other thermals to compare them with. They use FLIR 17um cores but Armasight chose more wisely and selected better screens for their Apollos and also their Zeuss thermal scopes.

JPK

dbl tap

Not a problem, I like your avatar, but I don't remember me ever telling you what you should be doing?

Perhaps if I did somewhere along the line, I apologize for the transgression.