Why are you so stuck on first gen nightvision?????

Because cost, I have 3 kids, and like I posted  earlier I hunt & shoot a lot, night hunting for predators is only one thing I do therefore not looking to spend a lot bc I already spend a lot on guns accessories, diferent builds not completed,etc I have other stuff for sale on here but selling slowwwwwwly.

HeyJim
I wish I knew as much as some guys around here; or have the contacts other members do have.. I am slowly learning too. Again, I was in your exact same situation September 2014... I also have a family, a daily job... and I need that job to keep afloat... it took me over 6 months to piece 5 Gen3s: One has all new parts and a brand new tube; 2 others with new housings with good used tubes and my last 2 PVS-7 housings are awaiting a tube. I managed those last two housings by buying every used or broken part I could get my hands on so I could fix them.

The end goal was so my entire family can enjoy Gen3 stargazing without fights over the scopes. By the end of April I am hoping to have one Gen3 for every member of my family and an H-alpha filter for my telescope so yes, believe me; I understand very well that this is expensive, shelling 4 or 5 grand in one card swipe is painful; again, that's not how I've managed to do it... I'll save a few bucks every other day: I don't eat out? I save the 20 bucks for not eating out (thats a pair of demist shields)... I don't do something? I'll save those 20 bucks for something in the NV fund. Once money is enough to purchase the part I want, I get the part... and repeat the process. While I am saving, I research everything; I look at the eBay auctions that were sold to get a clue as to how much something was worth used... I found out that some parts are cheap, some parts are more expensive; some parts you gotta have new... others you can fix... others doesn't matter etc... Tubes are the most expensive part, and if you go for the good stuff it can get crazy expensive; especially so if you don't know where to start looking. If you've done this as a gunsmith, I think you can manage to do this for Night Vision too...

I am not trying to piss on Gen1... or belittle you... none of that.... yes, it might take you three months to piece your first Gen3... but let me tell you: I can't describe how awesome it felt powering up for the first time my first home built Gen3... So if 500 is your budget this month; save it, then next month? Another 500, and next month? another 500 saved... in three months you'll have 1500, that's a fairly good used EE PVS-14...  You are already 900 bucks out of pocket, and that's the price for a good MX-10160 tube...

G.

I know thanks for the info.  I will see if the armasight works for what I need it for if not, I could go with the Czech PN-5 or just keep my eye out for better stuff at good deals. I know how to shop around I always buy my guns at great deals/prices I wait and research. the last 4 I bought were 1/2 to a 1/3 of what people pay for them on average. But I looked for a few years for them. Also I am new to NV, and with a lot of daytime shooting/hunting I do I spend on swfa/leupold/weaver optics etc for that, have to balance things.

So then think of it in terms of firearms,  you can buy the cheapest BSA scope you can find and try to justify that it will be good enough.  You can buy every BSA, Barska, Tasco, etc made today trying to find the one that's good enough.  And doing so you'll have spent enough for a mid range Leupold in short order.  There are some options out there that are good deals, but they aren't dirt cheap new.  Realistically, people don't say to avoid gen1 at all costs because they are trying to hide a secret from you.  They say it because gen1 sucks.  The old military cascade Gen1 is different, but it is huge, weighs a ton, and it is mil-surp so who knows what life it's seen.

If night vision is something you must have, is there not a single rifle/scope that you could part with to invest in night vision?  You say the last 4 rifles you bought were had at a fraction of their market value.  Why not turn one of them into cash?  You'll lose one but you'll double your available shooting hours in doing so.  Those optics aren't cheap that you mention using in the day.  Why would you think the night version would be satisfying by going with the lowest priced option available.

This is an arena that if you want weapon mounted, you really are going to have to fork over the money to play or you are going to have to accept a monster of a used mil-surp optic on top of the rifle.  Anything else will be a disappointment, weapon mounted wise.  

I've played with standard gen1, built a DIY cascade system, bought a used Gen2+ monocular, and today, if I could do it all over, I would start with a used gen 3 setup and skip the others.  I don't regret the cascade system as it was fun to build and gave me my first glimpse at night vision.  The gen2+ works well, though since it's not completely pvs14 compatible some uses are a little more difficult.  One paycheck later and I could have started with a used gen3 from the EE.  I plan to keep what I have as it works and would be a great loaner.  Still, that voice in the back of my head keeps reminding me what good gen3 looks like and tells me to upgrade.  I should have listened from the start.  It hurts to hear the prices people state as a starting point, but thats the price of the game.

Well put.  Also, I did not mention the weight of military cascades!  Definitely need to suck it up to use them (4-6 pounds)

I know exactly what you mean. Like I said, I put mine together over the course of 6 months... so it is much easier to shell 4k over 6 months than to shell 4k over 1 scope in one swipe...

G.

I understand what your all trying to tell me even though your analogy is a little off I don't but $1000 scopes on my guns never have never will, no need for that. 90% of hunters/shooters do  not unless they hunt/competition shoot or guide for a living everyday. This is only one area of hunting I do. But my point is I am only using NV for 50-60yard avg. shots. That's why I am looking at Gen 1 or cheaper alternatives,LIke Zeiss or Czech. I have been night hunting using green tactical lights, ND-3 subzero laser designator, and regular tactical lights and I might add getting the job done just with more work involved, I am a hunter so it comes with the territory. But if I had an NV even cheaper one it still gives me an advantage over a light or laser projecting a light source. If a Gen 1 or cascade military model works as good or better than lets say my ND-3 laser used with any scope I have then I am already doing better. I am just getting into this and if I ever get hogs on my property to hunt or really like using NV after using it for awhile then I will upgrade or as you guys commented learning how to build my own to save money, I have no idea of components or what is needed or if its broke or not,etc that comes with experience and I do a lot of other projects I am working on 4 AR's right now for example. because there are things I can do and hunt here in TX I couldn't hunt or things I couldn't own in NY. That's why I feel I am getting ahead of myself here. Also a side note, my wife has been in bad shape for 2 months, a lot of tests and doctor visits,etc So (my time) is getting limited. So lets see how this cheaper stuff works out or if I even like it. Then get into the more in depth  subjects on how to build, what to use, whats good, whats not in Gen 3,etc. But I thank you guys again for all your input I appreciate it. I ask a question sometimes on these forums and get a general reply, 1 sarcastic reply or nothing.
Thanks again, Jim.

I personally don't think it is a huge waste of $ to buy Cascade Gen 1 or Gen 2 devices.

Cascade Gen 1 performs really well, and the center resolution is generally exceptional. However, it tends to have that fish eye effect, which for me, kills the usability as a monocular, but it might still have a lot of value as a dedicated rifle scope since you only care about the center of the image anyhow. The size is also a detractor, since Gen 1 Cascade tubes are massive & heavy.

Generation 2+ is really quite usable. If you plan to use this outdoors and aren't walking through thick woods, it will likely be all you really need, and even if you are walking through some pretty thick woods that block all of the ambient light, you can still use an IR illuminator. The problem here is that Gen 2+ is almost the same price as cheap Gen 3. If you can find a deal on a cheap Gen 2+ device, I'd say go that route.

If your budget allows for Gen 3, I would almost always go with Gen 3, since it generally has the greatest usability. If you shop around, you can find a Gen 3 device within your budget, but it will likely not be rifle mountable. At the end of the day, stick to your budget.

The gen 1 units you're looking at are more expensive then the gen2+ everyone has reccomended

It's like you're posting that you would like a way to watch movies at home everyone's telling you blue ray is where it's at(gen3) you go I don't have money for blueray but you found a really good priced Betamax(gen1) we all tell you bro you can buy a used DVD(gen2) player for cheaper then the Betamax and it's almost as good as the blueray and you buy a vhs player for more then the DVD

There is a huge wealth of information in the nightvision forums it's not like gd or the ar15 tech forums the guys here really know there shit and are pointing you in the right direction

Betamax... wow... that is ancient... That is indeed a really good analogy...

Gen1 is a waste of money when Gen2 is available for lower. Used PVS-5 monoculars go on the bay for 100-300 bucks... yeah, they are not the latest and greatest PSQ-36 but they are on another league compared than any of the overpriced Russian Gen1 stuff... still not sure why those aren't sold at Walmart for 100 dollars for a pack of 5; so your toddler can play with those... really...

As Horta said: "they are the same as sticking a green bottle base in front of your eyes... "

Stick this in front of your dayscope to achieve Gen1 performance.



G.

What have you spent so far on night vision you haven't liked?  If the gen1 unit coming isn't to your taste you're somewhere in the $900 range?  Two gen2 monocular sold yesterday here on the EE for $400.  Litton tubes.  Well known quality equipment.  Not today's best, but usable by all accounts.  Far better than anything new made today for $400.  If you're on a budget (my most expensive night vision optic was $525 so I understand budget) you HAVE to look used for this stuff.  It's simply not available in a quality option new for that money.  I'm not suggesting you have to spend $2,000 to enjoy it, but you can't buy new Gen1 and expect much from it.

You say you're working on 4 ARs right now.  How many of them can you shoot at once?  There's no way that 3 ARs and a decent used gen2-3 night vision optic would be just as much fun?  What I hear in your posts is that you want it cheap, good, and now.  Those three don't happen together typically.  It sounds like a sacrifice will have to be made.  Either you will be stuck with bad night vision that probably doesn't meet your wants, or one of the other toys will have to go.  You ice, it's your enjoyment,  if the 4th AR is more fun than the first monocular, then by all means keep the AR.  There simply isn't anything more we can tell you than skip the typical gen 1.  You were told to skip them and you've bought two now.  Clearly our opinions aren't what you're looking for.

The 4 AR's are different calibers for different uses/hunting puposes, those 4 did not cost me $4000k or even close I know how and where to get parts and do all my own work.  Also I already have sacrificed one rifle A marlin 35 rem used money to buy Photon. Now I am selling that, also I listed in EE my semi-custom Winchester m70 Lightweight, semi wildcat with dies and brass. Together I will have about $1300-$1400. from the two, now I am in sale or used price gen II's.

Again, like Benzy2 said, you are already out 900 bucks; and at 1300-1500 budget you're already deep in Gen3 territory; one sold on eBay for 1150 bucks a few days ago... AB micro housing, Gen3 with an unknown decent looking Gen3 tube... milspec glass too, etc...

At this rate, by the time you're done investigating you could've bought a brand new PVS-14 from TNVC with warranty...

G.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/251849237972?nav=SEARCH


Stalk ebay post the link up someone will chime in

Again, like Benzy2 said, you are already out 900 bucks; and at 1300-1500 budget you're already deep in Gen3 territory; one sold on eBay for 1150 bucks a few days ago... AB micro housing, Gen3 with an unknown decent looking Gen3 tube... milspec glass too, etc...

At this rate, by the time you're done investigating you could've bought a brand new PVS-14 from TNVC with warranty...

G.

If that was a Gen 3 rifle scope not a monocular then I might be able to get one, but I have to sell my photon and my rifle in EE first then I'm good I am going to take my time, this time, being in a hurry I bought the Photon and don't like it, so next I'm taking my time to make sure its what I want.
Thanks Jim

So I received my gen 1 Armasight WWZ 4x 12degree FOV with 810nm IR. I must say if it isn't for its small usable FOV this unit is not that bad, it works, not overly big/heavy as some gen 1's. If this works this good then a Gen2 and 3 should be great. Using it w/o the IR it's has a small but descant view between 30-50yds and if viewing an open area like my front fields and across the road to adj. fields/wood line I could seen all like daytime. With the IR it work ok to bring into view dark area's not spectacularly and sometimes makes things not as clear as using just the unit itself. My guess is a different IR better quality unit may help but not sure. Also based on this unit a Zeiss or Czech pn-5 using 3 tubes as you guys stated above should be great since this uses only one.
But I would assume the Gen 2 or 3's should have sharper edges and greater FOV . I can't super focus the unit I can make the 4 rabbits and cat I was looking at 30-40yds away but I can't focus it enough like a rifle scope to see details. For hunting or just viewing its ok. Not spectacular but it works. I wouldn't call it junk as I have seen others that were grainier or not as clear of a lens kinda like the bottle effect center good as it goes to edges, so-so. The red crosshairs are adj. I like them light at low setting as to not over power the FOV.
So if its worth it I may try a IR doubler or better more powered IR unit to see if it helps with distance clarity.
For $322. total cost it is not bad/junk, I've seen worse for more money. With the attached weaver/picatinny mount I think it will go on an AR 22 or my 22mag for fun but not serious hunting tool.
I would like to check out an ATN or similar clip-on rilfe scope unit gen2/3 pvs22/28 or 40. That maybe better for hunting as you use you existing already sight in rifle scope.

Lol

Oh did I say something funny?

The only real gen1+ worth using and or consider for a rifle scope is the armasight vampire 3x with a after market ir sorce like the t20, nm400 or 800

Ive shot 65 redcoats ( foxes )in the past year and a bit of owning the AV3x  from as close as 20 yards out to 200 yards. ( fox in the pic was taken at about 120 yards ) I regulary switch the day to night optic and its never lost zero and the resolution of it is why i say its the only gen1 worth using as a riflescope. I use this plus a cascade as a spotter. ( for a example how i hunt foxes at night )

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Moonless night, 30% cloud cover: optic passive looking at the tree at 455 yards ( i could see with my eye out to 30 yards ok ) iphone couldnt pick up image images un ultered and dont show you in great detail what you see with your eye. With the eye, image are sharp clear and defined.  
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Same night ( armasight 810 lr ir light pointing out to the tree at 455 yards )
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Same postion but now with the night master 400 and 800 ir ( tree is 455yards )
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Thanks for the pics, That's what I was looking for was info for hunting purposes. The Vampire uses Core II technology like in the Gen 2 I was told by the guy at Armasight,,Some didn't agree But he also said that he would take any NV I bought from his other distributers and give me 90% value toward a  better model Gen1-3. So I could for a little more get the vampire, Reason I bought the WWZ was it's cost and I could see for myself how it worked, before getting something better and seeing for myself how the degrees equated to FOV. As stated above I am using it for mainly 50-60yds at yote's, bobcat at some fox.   based on what you showed at wrote above it would definetly work for that. I am not looking to find out how to assemble NV units, I want to buy one and use it, used gen-3 are still expensive and cheapest Gen 2's used/new are still $1100-$1600. The Vampire is half that cost at $649. avg price new. Viewing in your backyard VS a weapon's mounted optic being used for hunting in woods/fields is different and is the scenario I was looking for feedback on.
Thanks Jim
PS; Nice rifle, Is that a Tikka.

Before I moved on to Gen 3, I started with an Armasight Spark monocular. I could see how the Vampire could be very good for the money if used with a good illuminator. The center resolution of the Spark rivals my PVS14. Gain, FOV, and edge clarity are another matter though.

If you're happy, that's all that matters.  For slightly under $1000 you can pick up a used gen2 pvs4.  It's how I would go if I needed a weapon specific mc on a budget:  that or a cascade system.  Regardless, if the option you bought gets the job done, it's a good enough buy.  Out of curiosity, do you think a game light and you're already owned Leupolds would perform equally well as the WWZ?

Better in some respect/worse in others, they are to different things. I have an ND-3 laser designater(turns any scope into night vision) actually it can and bc your using a good rifle scope it can actualy be better. Also have a streamlight tlr-1 game getter unbelievable led light, turns night into day better. both actually cut into the woods better than a gen 3 but they a lights/lasers. they cast beams out, noticeable to game sometimes, must keep batteries fresh, they don't run 40hrs off a battery(S). NV just plain different, and the game doesn't know your there.

They all will get the job done but some better for different game/hunting conditions. I will like to try what looks like the  best of both worlds Gen 2 or 3 clip on NV systems. Your scope stays in place sighted in, then become NV sounds like a win win.  ATN pv22 seem cheap now, gen 2 version on sale at places $1300-$1600, depending on accessories. Maybe will save up or look for used one.  

I would go with a gen 2 pvs-4 over the atn ps22 any day.  Clip on commercial gen2 (and you need a good day scope) vs. telescope quality optics military gen 2, no comparison.    www.nitevis.com has them warrantied for 1099.

oh- and if you get the larue mount for it, it will return to zero 100% so you can just swap scopes from day/night making the clip on scope no longer a benefit.  There is a big loss of quality looking through two pieces of glass.

Hi Mate.

Yes she's a Tikka. She's my old faithful. She's on her 4th barrel and 2nd boltbody & pin + Spring ( Got rid of the tikka mag's long time ago, due to replacement cost. Fitted a CDI DBM with AI mag's.

The iphone pics don't do it much justice but it gives a idea. That hay bail for example i could make out the individual strands of hay, with the optic focused at that distance ( Bail is at 150y ) Most of my hunting is in open country and a little in narrow scrub country ( I use my smaller NM400 for the narrow scub for short range work and the nm800 for long range.

The AV 3x cost me $1000 here in aus at the time and the after market IR's for example the nm400-800 $89 & $104 Much cheaper then Armasight's "Long Range" Ir light's.  T20 is also a good one too.

At the end of the day, If it dose what you need it too. Great. That's all that matter's. Me gen3 here in aus is 3-4x the cost then it is in Yanky land, also what you guy's can have in spec wise we cant.

I have got a gen2 pvs4/tvs5 hybrid, that i am just about finished building. After a very long time of searching and waiting. Will be a pain to carry in the field with the large lens but i use a tripod with a diy saddle whilst i shoot over long grass.

I would also love a Ziess cascade to add to the collection. ( CJ7H/Dave ) i can blame for giving me green fever

I got at a really good price at a GS a broken Rustov ns2 cascade glass and body in really good nic. That i am going to re-pot. ( Flashing tube )  If i dont get it working right again, I'll just butcher the housing and make it fit for a Gen2 tube. When ther's a will there's a way.

I guess what i am saying. If it make's you happy and not regretful then that's what matter's. If and when you decide to upgrade, you can always sell it on fleabay and get some coin back.

Regards

Skip





I

+1  The OP really doesn't seem to have any clue as to what he is missing, and continues to try and rationalize this crap versus that crap.

That's ok, if he is happy with his purchase and it fits his needs, why should anyone else care?  It isnt the route I'd take and I know what my uses/expectations are, but I'd also be happy if there was a solution for me in the sub $500 price range, regardless of if it was a solution that worked for others.

+1

El skip,   the zeiss z51 outperforms the pvs4 gen2 straight up. More gain, more resolution, dont look at light sources.   I love mine!   And they make a gen 2 version with a dropped rear occular.  best kept secret in night vision is nazi gear.

So I can't remember is the Zeiss or the Czech PN-5 better?

I dont think anyone has the czech, but they are both breeds of kraut so I would expect similar performance.   But Zeiss, is well, a Zei$$, safe bet.

Check this out from another site:

From what I have read the Zrak PN5x80 is a licensed copy of a Zeiss HV5x80AT.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...n-Scope-Anyone

The problem is, if and when a blue moon comes into alignment. I'll snap up a ziess. I missed out on a few due to them falling under "itar" which is a bit of of a pull seeing as a Zeiss cascade isnt yanky tech etc, but thats for another day.

Ever since ITAR has come about, even getting replacment parts etc are harder to get. NV isnt that big here in Aus, its gaining momentum but it will be a long ways off.

Its at the point you just have to sit and wait and hope you get in when you can before another :) i'ed love to play with the gear you guys can get nowdays. If only to be a yanky :)

Did some more searching and found 2 posts elsewhere about a guy who just bought a Czech from sportsmens guide, it's in used shape not newer like they said, another guy who knows more about them commented there having trouble with the switches working and the tubes it uses appear to be different from the Zeiss, there are fragile and if they break can't be replaced, no one manufactures them anymore at all, even the original Yugo company never actually made the tubes just the scopes, I 'll wait for a zeiss, just missed one on GB and HK parts has grade B & C left, B are refurbished, C basically you take your chances.

NAIT usually has some Zeiss scopes.

http://nait.com/products-page/night-vision-scope/

Would this be sufficient for night time hunting, and complete, for mounting on an AR?

MK845 Mark II Weapon Sight Generation 2+

http://nait.com/products-page/night-vision-scope/

I've had a couple of them and they work really well.

Is it a red dot sight?  How big is the red dot?  Does it come ready to mount to a flat top AR?  Any way to move the scope forward an inch or two?  

thanks,

It is a red dot sight, 2 MOA I believe. Comes with a double throw lever mount. Fits perfect on a flat top AR.

After reading this thread I went and bought a Night Spirit 2 from Apex. Even if it has a small burn mark off to the side I would call it a win over the stuff I am seeing in this thread. Seems like modifications are not to bad if you want a head mounted unit, or weapons mount.

I like that MK855, but wow that 8x Zeiss Objective lens hello.

Congrats, you'll be pleased; it is a good scope to have around even if you decide to get a Gen3 later down the road...

G.

Check my sig link.

Owning both I'd say you're wrong overall. The Zeiss might have better center resolution is about all I'd give it. Gain under most circumstances is about equal IMO, the reticle on the zeiss is inferior IMO.

You suck at linking, and yes it is. Performance is comparable to the Zeiss Gen1 Orion.

I never said I was a computer nerd, just play one on tv.

Good link a lot of useful info, like a couple other's I received,  instead of biased opinions which this post is full of already
Everything I ask or comment on is met with some sarcastic shit comment.

Like my original post 4 pages back, I was looking at a cheaper option for some night hunting only. I do other hunting/shooting and while I could buy the newest and greatest Gen 15 super, fantastic, NV to see my neighbors ass crack in awesome detail, that's not what I'm looking for, I need a useful scope for some night time hunting that's it!! I will not spend thousands for it, it does not justify my needs. If my Gen 1 shit for $322. works just needs more detail/fov then a Zeiss/PVS4 or similar military triple tube should work just fine for my needs and when I find one not in beat up grade, with an available weapons mount like the mk855/orien/etc then I'll consider buying it.

Thanks again to all for the information.

Let us know how the NS2 turns out...I want to know what the quality of their latest inventory is.

Might want to check my sig for the cheap nv guide I wrote a few years back. Unless that's what you were already talking about. For your needs I'd say a TC scope is just the ticket.

Depending on your budget I would contact AEO and get a blem GEN 3 tube and a new housing off of eBay.