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Posted: 4/14/2014 4:08:43 PM EDT
So I had the opportunity to play with some really nice gear this past weekend, thanks TheHorta
 , anyhow, now I've got the bug.
I've always considered night vision and FLIR to be a rich man's sport, and that hasn't really changed, but now I want to get in on it. After having the chance to look what's available, I believe I want to go with a weapon mounted monocular and IR laser, but a PVS-14, and APTIAL aren't in my price range. Can anyone point me in the right direction? |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 4:20:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Save your pennies, get yourself some good OMNI VI or later gen 3 gear.
You saw his stuff.....if you go the budget route, you wont be happy with what you get compared to what you saw that got you hooked. There is someone in the EE right now selling a TNV-14 kit for 2800 or so that has a TON of extras, and its the ITT tube version. I'd check that out. I was tempted to jump on it, but the timing just wasnt right. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 4:30:46 PM EDT
[#2]
We always say save for a Gen 3 device. But if you're looking for a TRULY American made affordable NV rifle scope, the M845 Gen 2 SHP is hard to beat. It's still the best bang for your resolution dollar. http://tnvc.com/shop/m845-mk-4-2-5x-gen2-shp-red-dot-sight/
Not sure what your budget entails or what your NV device needs are. As for the APTIAL's they are restricted anyhoot. P.S. In keeping with our American Made affordable NV line up, at the upcoming NRA show, folks will get a first hand glimpse of a new TNVC product that is REALLY going to get you into an affordable system but with some darn good resolution as in the M845 above but in a "small" package. 
I think folks are REALLY gonna like this one! 
Vic |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 4:58:40 PM EDT
[#3]
I want to lay with Hortas toys!!!! Especially that new thermal scope he has
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:24:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to lay with Hortas toys!!!! Especially that new thermal scope he has Pervert. You keep your dirty mitts off my girls. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:25:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
So I had the opportunity to play with some really nice gear this past weekend, thanks TheHorta We had a good time. We never spotted any coyotes, but we we did hear them laughing at us. We were being stalked by an angry bull trying to protect his girls though. That was prettymuch the only excitement we had. Apparently equipment does not make the man.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
So I had the opportunity to play with some really nice gear this past weekend, thanks TheHorta , anyhow, now I've got the bug.
I've always considered night vision and FLIR to be a rich man's sport, and that hasn't really changed, but now I want to get in on it. After having the chance to look what's available, I believe I want to go with a weapon mounted monocular and IR laser, but a PVS-14, and APTIAL aren't in my price range. Can anyone point me in the right direction? What is your use for the gear? How much can you afford? |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:00:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is your use for the gear? How much can you afford? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I had the opportunity to play with some really nice gear this past weekend, thanks TheHorta , anyhow, now I've got the bug.
I've always considered night vision and FLIR to be a rich man's sport, and that hasn't really changed, but now I want to get in on it. After having the chance to look what's available, I believe I want to go with a weapon mounted monocular and IR laser, but a PVS-14, and APTIAL aren't in my price range. Can anyone point me in the right direction? What is your use for the gear? How much can you afford? Well, I'd like to be able to shoot hogs and coyotes. I haven't established a budget yet, I'm trying to see where I need to start. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:00:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pervert. You keep your dirty mitts off my girls. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I want to lay with Hortas toys!!!! Especially that new thermal scope he has Pervert. You keep your dirty mitts off my girls. Hahah, you know what I meant
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:01:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to lay with Hortas toys!!!! Especially that new thermal scope he has Maybe I can persuade him with some Boudin and Cracklings! |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:47:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I'd like to be able to shoot hogs and coyotes. I haven't established a budget yet, I'm trying to see where I need to start. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So I had the opportunity to play with some really nice gear this past weekend, thanks TheHorta , anyhow, now I've got the bug.
I've always considered night vision and FLIR to be a rich man's sport, and that hasn't really changed, but now I want to get in on it. After having the chance to look what's available, I believe I want to go with a weapon mounted monocular and IR laser, but a PVS-14, and APTIAL aren't in my price range. Can anyone point me in the right direction? What is your use for the gear? How much can you afford? Well, I'd like to be able to shoot hogs and coyotes. I haven't established a budget yet, I'm trying to see where I need to start. Well, I certainly don't claim to be a NV expert, but you will find that most people here are going to tell you to go Gen 3 or go home. I disagree for many uses. Now, I'd love to have Gen 3, but there is no way I can justify the expense based on my current need. I don't require passive NV to avoid society's dirtbags in an urban bugout (my use for NV), you don't really need it for shooting yotes. I ended up with an Armasight Spark and an IR illuminator. It has very nice resolution and the IR light helps make up for the tubes low gain on dark nights. Total cost with monocular, IR light and head mount? $670. If I ever strike it rich the Spark will make a good loaner unit after I buy a PVS14.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 8:06:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
P.S. In keeping with our American Made affordable NV line up, at the upcoming NRA show, folks will get a first hand glimpse of a new TNVC product that is REALLY going to get you into an affordable system but with some darn good resolution as in the M845 above but in a "small" package.
I think folks are REALLY gonna like this one!
Vic You're a worse tease than my high school girlfriend. 
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Posted: 4/14/2014 8:21:55 PM EDT
[#12]
If you want a fine NV scope that you can mount on damn near anything I am still a big fan of the PVS-4. TNVC sells a Gen 3 version for a affordable price. Absolutely bullet proof scopes with great optics. They have been around since the 70's and are still popular. Just something else to consider.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:31:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Well I see the OP is from Louisiana. I'll share an exsperience I had while staying here during hurricane Rita. If you ever been in a bad situation only gen 3 will do. In the early morning hours before day light too my horror two men were braking into my home. I got my shotgun with a light mounted on it and went out and confronted and ran them off. I was the only one who had stayed behind in the neighborhood and was by myself and now the bad guys knew it too. I then realized they may come back with reinforcement at night and all I had for night vision was a gen 1 night owl. The hurricane destroyed my vehicle and trees were down every where.I slept during the day and stayed up during the night so no one would come in and slit my throat. Luckily I never saw them again but I learned that if that ever happens again ,I want the ability to access ( could have been others backing them) the situation to be able to fight or flight. I hope you never find yourself in that situation but if you do, I promise you don't want to be caught with anything less than gen3. Now me and the wife keep our gen3's by our bed sides ready to go if we hear a strange bump in the night. Its better to cry a little now than to cry a whole lot later.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 9:05:17 AM EDT
[#14]
+a million. I just hunt coyotes and having "active" night vision is not much better than swinging a red light, at least with my desert breeds (the smartest of them, any stupid yote can survive in food-plentiful middle America or the sub tropics, only the smart survive in the deserts)
I could not imagine using it to the defend myself, but I would NOT want some IR illuminator showing everyone where I am from 200+ yards away. even the quietest hunter/operator/joe is gonna make some noise, and that triggers the animal/criminal to look at you, and if you have the IR illu on, they are going to see you and know something is up. everyone these days knows what a dim red light means- security camera IR light / night vision. gen 3 allows you to go passive, and truly be invisible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I see the OP is from Louisiana. I'll share an exsperience I had while staying here during hurricane Rita. If you ever been in a bad situation only gen 3 will do. In the early morning hours before day light too my horror two men were braking into my home. I got my shotgun with a light mounted on it and went out and confronted and ran them off. I was the only one who had stayed behind in the neighborhood and was by myself and now the bad guys knew it too. I then realized they may come back with reinforcement at night and all I had for night vision was a gen 1 night owl. The hurricane destroyed my vehicle and trees were down every where.I slept during the day and stayed up during the night so no one would come in and slit my throat. Luckily I never saw them again but I learned that if that ever happens again ,I want the ability to access ( could have been others backing them) the situation to be able to fight or flight. I hope you never find yourself in that situation but if you do, I promise you don't want to be caught with anything less than gen3. Now me and the wife keep our gen3's by our bed sides ready to go if we hear a strange bump in the night. Its better to cry a little now than to cry a whole lot later. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 10:47:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Get a gen 3 unit, you will not regret it. It offers the best performance and has the best resale value. Yes it is expensive, but you don't have to drop $3K to get it. I just picked up an early gen 3 monocular with a Litton MX-10160 pattern tube for under $1K. It has an earlier tube and is in a cheap commercial housing (SNS-1), but it offers a ton of value for the money. I'll either upgrade it to another housing or trade it for something sparkly that catches my eye. I traded my last one for a cheap motorcycle (1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200 w/ 73K miles).
Ask TheHorta to help you find a deal. He knows what to look for. Come up with a realistic budget ($1K or so to start) and find a decent gen 3 monocular. You can later upgrade the housing if you want to trade/sell it when you are ready to upgrade to a nicer unit. I've seen several PVS-7 and Envis units in the $1K range recently. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 10:48:51 AM EDT
[#16]
That, and I've been known to give away free night vision for a good lap-dance.
Wait... what?! |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 10:52:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.....come up with a realistic budget ($1K or so to start) and find a decent gen 3 monocular. You can later upgrade the housing if you want to trade/sell it when you are ready to upgrade to a nicer unit. I've seen several PVS-7 and Envis units in the $1K range recently. This. You can find a great monocular for sub 1.5k, and lower if you really look! 
Good Luck in your search! |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 11:28:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That, and I've been known to give away free night vision for a good lap-dance. Wait... what?! TheHorta, I take back what I said about bringing the Boudin and Cracklins over. Looking at your avatar I should have seen all the clues...Lol! Now you got your animals trying to pull a David Carradine. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 11:30:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Hello Skip here.
I've been sitting in the back ground for some time and now decided to have a voice :) this will sorta be a introduction of my self also. I am a ex professional kangaroo shooter here in Australia. Done it for a little over 12 years and have taken more critters then I care to count. I've joined this forum as NV isn't really that big here in Aus due a stigma that comes with using gear like NV .... I won't go there but other fellow Aussies will know what I mean. Most of you will know of David ( Cj7hawk ) he is a good friend of mine. He's the one to blame/got me into the NV bug :) Anyway my first NV purchase is a Armasight Vampire 3x dictated rifle site. I've had it for a little while now and I must say I've been very happy with my buy. I am using a better ir illuminators ( well I have a few to choose from ) the one that came with the sight ( mediocre at best ) but my other two are a god send :) Both are Deree NM 400 & 800 with the new 2mts ir pills running off a single 18650. The 400 on a moonless night is good for throwing light out to 400 yards ( fills the whole scope with IR light ) also a small package ( 30mm lens ) but a large light output. The older 800 ir has a 50 mm lens and is quite heavy when mounted ( it's good for mainly sitting and waiting ) the 400ir is what gets used the most out of all my IRs. The Armasight Vampire 3x is fantastic for my first buy ( I know what 99% of you are thinking .... Gen3 nothing else ) that's good and all but I am a practical bloke :) I am not in fear of my life. So I need not to run around passive. Yes I have had a play with pretty much most of Cj7Hawk's gear :) makes me a little sad to go back to the gen1 stuff ( but running the IR on moonless and crappy nights is ok for me ) I've already bagged a few Red Coats since owning this scope. I am as happy as a pig in shit on a muddy day. It's doing exactly what I intended to do with it. I don't know if these pics will work but I'll try anyway. The Armasight 3x vampire and my IRs http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/4DC9D055-5313-4842-B41A-D3A74D1F1544_zpsmbrmvxvw.jpg This is a little comparison of the IRs: pls not the pics do not represent what the eye sees, there is no trickery here pics are taken with a factory set iPhone camera. Image is about 60% what the eye can see. The camera doesn't do the NV justice. Armasight's IR at the 500 yard tree: http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/2A2E024E-50BC-4D37-A3C0-4443AF351A88_zps5ooelvbi.jpg The Deree nm400 2mts ir pill 500 yard tree: http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/370EFCB1-ADBA-4883-B2AA-544ED846C415_zpso9xbcp5o.jpg Now for big momma, the Deree Nm800 IR : http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/77350AF6-4B70-424F-AFF4-6FDE50272C35_zpsrof0gasn.jpg Just to show you the tree is 500 yards away. Here is a passive pic on a cloudy 80% moon: those two critters a a couple of Roos eating some stubble. The 500 yard tree is on the left. http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/9E789AAB-77BE-4B8E-AC02-94223B82BC9B_zps4br9ezbh.jpg All in all for a good cheap starter NV rifle scope for dropping critters at 200 and less with ease. I'm recommending the Armasight 3x vampire. This Red Coat fell ill from a 80 grn VlD panadol rapid at 135 yards freestanding. :) http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/FEFB921D-EAFF-4551-B1C0-677CAC6D73FF_zps97krvx1f.jpg Hope my First Post helps others and meets some of your guys expectations Skip out :) |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 11:33:19 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. You can find a great monocular for sub 1.5k, and lower if you really look!
Good Luck in your search! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
.....come up with a realistic budget ($1K or so to start) and find a decent gen 3 monocular. You can later upgrade the housing if you want to trade/sell it when you are ready to upgrade to a nicer unit. I've seen several PVS-7 and Envis units in the $1K range recently. This. You can find a great monocular for sub 1.5k, and lower if you really look!
Good Luck in your search! I built one of the DIY cascade tubes & I'm pretty impressed with the result. Its kind of got me wondering about other equipment. Would you mind defining "great monocular" and where they're found. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:19:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Thanks for all of the ideas guys.
I've got ACOG's on two of my rifles. One is a TA31F, and the other is a TA01NSN. I've got a PentagonLight MD3R with a red momentary laser on one, and a Surefire M952 with an IR filter on the other. I'm tempted to build a dedicated lightweight rifle for NV, but I'd also like something that could be used with's the other two. I'm not in a position to spend $5-7,000 on NV gear, I wish I was, but I'm just not. Everything I have has been years in the making, and was picked up piece by piece. I really want the best gear I can get, but everything I've looked at is more than I can spend at once, I'd like to break it into chunks. IR light, IR laser, and NV monocular is my goal. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:25:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Do you still have both kidneys? 'Cuz I know a guy...
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:32:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Great monocular tubes; http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_172/1238271_MX_10160A_milspec_Anvis_tubes.html
a few micros sold recently and an envis too. They pop up every month or so Quote HistoryQuoted:
I built one of the DIY cascade tubes & I'm pretty impressed with the result. Its kind of got me wondering about other equipment. Would you mind defining "great monocular" and where they're found. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
.....come up with a realistic budget ($1K or so to start) and find a decent gen 3 monocular. You can later upgrade the housing if you want to trade/sell it when you are ready to upgrade to a nicer unit. I've seen several PVS-7 and Envis units in the $1K range recently. This. You can find a great monocular for sub 1.5k, and lower if you really look!
Good Luck in your search! I built one of the DIY cascade tubes & I'm pretty impressed with the result. Its kind of got me wondering about other equipment. Would you mind defining "great monocular" and where they're found. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:33:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you still have both kidneys? Yeah, pretty attached to them at the moment though. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 12:45:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I built one of the DIY cascade tubes & I'm pretty impressed with the result. Its kind of got me wondering about other equipment. Would you mind defining "great monocular" and where they're found. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
.....come up with a realistic budget ($1K or so to start) and find a decent gen 3 monocular. You can later upgrade the housing if you want to trade/sell it when you are ready to upgrade to a nicer unit. I've seen several PVS-7 and Envis units in the $1K range recently. This. You can find a great monocular for sub 1.5k, and lower if you really look!
Good Luck in your search! I built one of the DIY cascade tubes & I'm pretty impressed with the result. Its kind of got me wondering about other equipment. Would you mind defining "great monocular" and where they're found. The Envis M703E pops up for $1000 to $1500 on the for sale boards here on AR15.com. They also pop up pretty often on Ebay, but with a much wider price range (and all the risk of Ebay). It has an excellent front lens and the housing can be upgraded to a NV Depot Micro housing which retains the front Envis lens. You can also put the tube into a PVS-14 housing as well. I have has also had excellent luck with the SNS-1 model monocular. They are offered by Litton, IT Lasers (ITL), US Nightvision, as well as others (rebranded units). They have several different names: Super Night Scope (SNS-1), Night Eagle, etc. They use a cheap commercial housing that uses a C-mount from lens. I have picked up several in the $1K range. The use the standard pattern tube (F9800 or MX-10160), so they can also be upgraded to what ever housing you want. I have also seen several units for sale on this board which consist of an AB Nightvision housing with a MX-10160 tube it in. They all see to go in the $1500-2000 range. So read up on the various tube & housing post here in the NV section. That way you can have a rough idea of what you are looking for. Many members will help you out. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 2:35:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hello Skip here. I've been sitting in the back ground for some time and now decided to have a voice :) this will sorta be a introduction of my self also. I am a ex professional kangaroo shooter here in Australia. Done it for a little over 12 years and have taken more critters then I care to count. I've joined this forum as NV isn't really that big here in Aus due a stigma that comes with using gear like NV .... I won't go there but other fellow Aussies will know what I mean. Most of you will know of David ( Cj7hawk ) he is a good friend of mine. He's the one to blame/got me into the NV bug :) Anyway my first NV purchase is a Armasight Vampire 3x dictated rifle site. I've had it for a little while now and I must say I've been very happy with my buy. I am using a better ir illuminators ( well I have a few to choose from ) the one that came with the sight ( mediocre at best ) but my other two are a god send :) Both are Deree NM 400 & 800 with the new 2mts ir pills running off a single 18650. The 400 on a moonless night is good for throwing light out to 400 yards ( fills the whole scope with IR light ) also a small package ( 30mm lens ) but a large light output. The older 800 ir has a 50 mm lens and is quite heavy when mounted ( it's good for mainly sitting and waiting ) the 400ir is what gets used the most out of all my IRs. The Armasight Vampire 3x is fantastic for my first buy ( I know what 99% of you are thinking .... Gen3 nothing else ) that's good and all but I am a practical bloke :) I am not in fear of my life. So I need not to run around passive. Yes I have had a play with pretty much most of Cj7Hawk's gear :) makes me a little sad to go back to the gen1 stuff ( but running the IR on moonless and crappy nights is ok for me ) I've already bagged a few Red Coats since owning this scope. I am as happy as a pig in shit on a muddy day. It's doing exactly what I intended to do with it. I don't know if these pics will work but I'll try anyway. The Armasight 3x vampire and my IRs <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4DC9D055-5313-4842-B41A-D3A74D1F1544_zpsmbrmvxvw.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/4DC9D055-5313-4842-B41A-D3A74D1F1544_zpsmbrmvxvw.jpg</a> This is a little comparison of the IRs: pls not the pics do not represent what the eye sees, there is no trickery here pics are taken with a factory set iPhone camera. Image is about 60% what the eye can see. The camera doesn't do the NV justice. Armasight's IR at the 500 yard tree: <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/2A2E024E-50BC-4D37-A3C0-4443AF351A88_zps5ooelvbi.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/2A2E024E-50BC-4D37-A3C0-4443AF351A88_zps5ooelvbi.jpg</a> The Deree nm400 2mts ir pill 500 yard tree: <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/370EFCB1-ADBA-4883-B2AA-544ED846C415_zpso9xbcp5o.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/370EFCB1-ADBA-4883-B2AA-544ED846C415_zpso9xbcp5o.jpg</a> Now for big momma, the Deree Nm800 IR : <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/77350AF6-4B70-424F-AFF4-6FDE50272C35_zpsrof0gasn.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/digi%20scoping%20the%20nv%20scope%203x%20/77350AF6-4B70-424F-AFF4-6FDE50272C35_zpsrof0gasn.jpg</a> Just to show you the tree is 500 yards away. Here is a passive pic on a cloudy 80% moon: those two critters a a couple of Roos eating some stubble. The 500 yard tree is on the left. <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/Mobile%20Uploads/9E789AAB-77BE-4B8E-AC02-94223B82BC9B_zps4br9ezbh.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/9E789AAB-77BE-4B8E-AC02-94223B82BC9B_zps4br9ezbh.jpg</a> All in all for a good cheap starter NV rifle scope for dropping critters at 200 and less with ease. I'm recommending the Armasight 3x vampire. This Red Coat fell ill from a 80 grn VlD panadol rapid at 135 yards freestanding. :) <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FEFB921D-EAFF-4551-B1C0-677CAC6D73FF_zps97krvx1f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/FEFB921D-EAFF-4551-B1C0-677CAC6D73FF_zps97krvx1f.jpg</a> Hope my First Post helps others and meets some of your guys expectations Skip out :) Thanks Skip. That is great info on the Vampire. After using the Spark I've been interested in the Vampire but there was little info out there on it yet. The lights you are using are new to me. May need to get one of the NM800s... |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 3:12:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks Skip. That is great info on the Vampire. After using the Spark I've been interested in the Vampire but there was little info out there on it yet. The lights you are using are new to me. May need to get one of the NM800s... Your welcome, just thought I would throw up a cheapie ( well cheap, for us Aussies to get ) Yes I had the same problem. I am part way through writing a review up. Just have to have a bit more free time to knuckle down and finish it. I found next to nothing on the Vamp, So I decided to bite the bullet :) I have had my vamp for awhile, so time has come to get a good honest review up for it. ( just gotta finish it off ) I have had bit of fun with the Spark .... Even took a few rabbits with it, it was good on the little .22lr and cci quiets. http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/CBCD43CB-9C6E-49F2-BEBB-96529F244A2D_zpsvoz5vkng.jpg I know Gen1 is not what you yanks like to use, but here in Aus gen2 and 3 can cost upwards of a small car. Let alone other good goodies like thermal =big $$$ My next buy will be a monocular ( mum ) in either xf4-5 or a omni tube. ( what ever is available here in Aus at the time. :), they not too badly priced here local second hand. I'm happy with my first buy into the NV game. I know what other gens are like first hand. So I knew what I was in for..... I decided what I intended to do with it and I knew I would be running a IR ( good for lighting up foxes eyes ) There's not really any need here in the land down under to run passive. Also the animals don't tend to be all that spooked by the IR glow. I've called in foxes pretty much on top of me with the ir on. The Deree nm 400 is what I mostly use. As it's good for about 400 yards of solid light. The Deree nm800 is more a long range ir light for setting up and waiting for your game. The nm400 I paid $84 and the nm800 $104 AUD for the lights only. I am sure there would be a Deree dealer in America. But concidering the amount of light put out and the cost it's a win win over say the Armasight IR ( that from as I see cost a tad more then the 800ir. There is Erving a bigger ir illuminator called the Xsearcher that throws light even further. But it's not really needed since shots will be on around 200 yards at a good safe max. But you get the extra Few hundred yards of illumination to see your backstops and what's beyond the target. Gen2 is even better again with the ir pills I have mentioned. As to the Vampire. I have to have my review done in the coming weeks. The Vampire has a date up north with some pigs, goat, dog, and the odd camel should we come across any :). For a dedicated rifle scope and a good IR for around $800 is a good buy in my books for starting out. Here gen2 you can add another $ 2-2500k to the $800 for a gen1. I couldn't see the need to spend the extra 2-2.5k on dropping foxes. NV is harder to sell here in Aus so if your going to buy, it's pretty much to keep. As NV is not that big here as it is for you Americans. :) Skip :) |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 3:31:15 PM EDT
[#28]
That's some cool stuff you are doing down in oz. I just wish the animals around here where that stupid :)
obviously gen 1 and other cheaper gear can make things happen, especially hog hunting (or for you, smoking roo's) we were just also throwing out the whole 'shtf' scenario as to why one would want gen 3. oh- any dingo's? |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 3:55:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's some cool stuff you are doing down in oz. I just wish the animals around here where that stupid :) obviously gen 1 and other cheaper gear can make things happen, especially hog hunting (or for you, smoking roo's) we were just also throwing out the whole 'shtf' scenario as to why one would want gen 3. oh- any dingo's? Never shot Roos with NV .... I used a spotlight and shot out the cab of my shooting rig. ( drivers side window ) Roos are off the menu this weekend as the station owner has a issue with goats and pigs. So they are the main target, taking the NV up to add another multiplier to the game. ( hoping it will get me to bag a few more out the mob before the scram. As these vermin are light shy and tend to scram when they see the spotlights heading there way. Dingos ..... Not many around in the station ( What I guess, you guys call a Ranch ) main quarry is pig and goat :) Roos are too easy to clean up. Spot them... Stop the ute....get the rifle ready.... Put the light on them....Point at the head .... Pull trigger.... Pick them up and $$$$$$ in the bank :) http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/2AA08936-EEFC-44F9-8D25-884ACFB07517_zpsn0gv5xsf.jpg http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/roopic2.jpg But that's enough on that. It's the night vision section after all :) |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 3:57:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never shot Roos with NV .... I used a spotlight and shot out the cab of my shooting rig. ( drivers side window ) Roos are off the menu this weekend as the station owner has a issue with goats and pigs. So they are the main target, taking the NV up to add another multiplier to the game. ( hoping it will get me to bag a few more out the mob before the scram. As these vermin are light shy and tend to scram when they see the spotlights heading there way. Dingos ..... Not many around in the station ( What I guess, you guys call a Ranch ) main quarry is pig and goat :) Roos are too easy to clean up. Spot them... Stop the ute....get the rifle ready.... Put the light on them....Point at the head .... Pull trigger.... Pick them up and $$$$$$ in the bank :) <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2AA08936-EEFC-44F9-8D25-884ACFB07517_zpsn0gv5xsf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/2AA08936-EEFC-44F9-8D25-884ACFB07517_zpsn0gv5xsf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/roopic2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/roopic2.jpg</a> But that's enough on that. It's the night vision section after all :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's some cool stuff you are doing down in oz. I just wish the animals around here where that stupid :) obviously gen 1 and other cheaper gear can make things happen, especially hog hunting (or for you, smoking roo's) we were just also throwing out the whole 'shtf' scenario as to why one would want gen 3. oh- any dingo's? Never shot Roos with NV .... I used a spotlight and shot out the cab of my shooting rig. ( drivers side window ) Roos are off the menu this weekend as the station owner has a issue with goats and pigs. So they are the main target, taking the NV up to add another multiplier to the game. ( hoping it will get me to bag a few more out the mob before the scram. As these vermin are light shy and tend to scram when they see the spotlights heading there way. Dingos ..... Not many around in the station ( What I guess, you guys call a Ranch ) main quarry is pig and goat :) Roos are too easy to clean up. Spot them... Stop the ute....get the rifle ready.... Put the light on them....Point at the head .... Pull trigger.... Pick them up and $$$$$$ in the bank :) <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2AA08936-EEFC-44F9-8D25-884ACFB07517_zpsn0gv5xsf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/Mobile%20Uploads/2AA08936-EEFC-44F9-8D25-884ACFB07517_zpsn0gv5xsf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/media/roopic2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd508/SKIPPYISAAUSSIE/roopic2.jpg</a> But that's enough on that. It's the night vision section after all :) Common practice to hang em up by the nuts? Yikes. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:20:45 PM EDT
[#31]
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Common practice to hang them up by the nuts? Yikes. Its a good handle/lifting point, when picking them up to put on the rails. Also when loading and off loading ( only thing left to get a good grab on after the carcasses are fully dressed for sale. The big ones get the winch ( saves ya back ) the mid size and small a just get lifted up with man power.
As to common practice. Probably .... I know a few other guys that do it kinda to my way. Ever shooter has there on way of doing things. You find what works best for you. At the end of the day ..... It's not like they need em anymore 
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:27:17 PM EDT
[#32]
What do the carcasses get used for? Meat? Pelts? Asian aphrodisiac?
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:33:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do the carcasses get used for? Meat? Pelts? Asian aphrodisiac? Meat and Skins :) The nuts ...well  ... The Tourist shops, sell them as coin purses.
As said I don't wish to derail the Op's Thread any further :) . I've put my 2c worth on what I think is a good, cheap, basic, beginners dedicated NV set up. Skip |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a good handle/lifting point, when picking them up to put on the rails. Also when loading and off loading ( only thing left to get a good grab on after the carcasses are fully dressed for sale. The big ones get the winch ( saves ya back ) the mid size and small a just get lifted up with man power.
As to common practice. Probably .... I know a few other guys that do it kinda to my way. Ever shooter has there on way of doing things. You find what works best for you. At the end of the day ..... It's not like they need em anymore
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Common practice to hang them up by the nuts? Yikes. Its a good handle/lifting point, when picking them up to put on the rails. Also when loading and off loading ( only thing left to get a good grab on after the carcasses are fully dressed for sale. The big ones get the winch ( saves ya back ) the mid size and small a just get lifted up with man power.
As to common practice. Probably .... I know a few other guys that do it kinda to my way. Ever shooter has there on way of doing things. You find what works best for you. At the end of the day ..... It's not like they need em anymore
Talk about adding insult to injury
Frankly I'm more surprised that the weight of the body didn't just tear all that shit off  , but hey maybe the sack is more durable.....aghhhh I'm done with this 
Just wanted to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing... not saying I have a problem just never seen anything...quite.....like that... |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 5:24:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a good handle/lifting point, when picking them up to put on the rails. Also when loading and off loading ( only thing left to get a good grab on after the carcasses are fully dressed for sale. The big ones get the winch ( saves ya back ) the mid size and small a just get lifted up with man power.
As to common practice. Probably .... I know a few other guys that do it kinda to my way. Ever shooter has there on way of doing things. You find what works best for you. At the end of the day ..... It's not like they need em anymore
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Common practice to hang them up by the nuts? Yikes. Its a good handle/lifting point, when picking them up to put on the rails. Also when loading and off loading ( only thing left to get a good grab on after the carcasses are fully dressed for sale. The big ones get the winch ( saves ya back ) the mid size and small a just get lifted up with man power.
As to common practice. Probably .... I know a few other guys that do it kinda to my way. Ever shooter has there on way of doing things. You find what works best for you. At the end of the day ..... It's not like they need em anymore
Welcome to arfcom Skip. You Aussies are a hoot. Look forward to your review of the Vampire. |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 5:44:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meat and Skins :) The nuts ...... Tourist shops sell them as coin purses. As said I don twist to derail the ops thread. I've put my 2c worth in. As said ..... I don't wish to derail the ops thread further. :) Skip Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What do the carcasses get used for? Meat? Pelts? Asian aphrodisiac? Meat and Skins :) The nuts ...... Tourist shops sell them as coin purses. As said I don twist to derail the ops thread. I've put my 2c worth in. As said ..... I don't wish to derail the ops thread further. :) Skip I'll add a few comments though - Skip is a good friend and is a professional shooter - When the bullets cost a fair percentage of the take, you can guess he's pretty good at what he does. Kangaroo's are usually a protected species, but Skip gets a license from the government and keeps their numbers down - as meat goes, it's pretty good. A little bit like gamey beef, but almost no fat - it's the only red meat you can eat on many low-fat/no-fat diets. It's kind of like the polar opposite of Wagyu beef. Anyway, we got around to doing some tests and I have some comparative results I can add - We took some photos on a starlight night. There's some big lights about a quarter-mile behind us, but the treeline at the bottom of the hill is over a quarter-mile away. Passive Gen1.  So we added some illumination and could make out the far power pole. The closer one is just over 100yds away. The far one is well over 200yds away.  By comparison, a PVS-4 passive - ( This would be roughly equivalent of the model TNVC is selling as Gen2 ) - With just starlight, the third pole can be seen, and we could make out the fourth pole ( which I think is around 800m away ) with our eyes, but not easily on the pic. If you check out the following image though, you can make it out in this one.  And a Gen3 PVS-4. ( Glass Tube ) on minimum gain - Can see the treeline at 800m in detail ( Skip, correct me on the distances if I recall them incorrectly ) and the power pole in the treeline. This is not a normal PVS-4 though.  And a Gen3 MX10160 based tube in a monocular for comparison.  Anyway, just to show I can take-them with the best, here's a genuine picture of an Armasight Gen1 riflescope taken at the same time. I used a 3 second exposure to collect enough light to make it look like a Gen3. There's a lot of noise in the picture, but it did pretty well. So it is actually possible to make a Gen1 look like a Gen3 if you use a long enough exposure. I did the below with a tripod, but all the above photos were taken by hand.  Anyway, I did some adjustment of the camera settings to try and recreate what we could see with the Armasight with our "dark adapted" sight - and here's what came out - That's me standing to the left of the closest pole at just over 100yds. So a very good result there with a decent illuminator - more than enough to take dogs or foxes.  Likewise, at the second pole - I am harder to see, but I am on the right of the pole, near the bush ( partially obscured ) - though if you notice, the bush seems to be made larger by my presence. My melon is sticking way up and is easiest to spot though very small.  So overall, the Gen1 with a good illuminator did do a pretty good job. Had I been absorbing more light, I think I wouldn't be visible - but I had a black t-shirt ( light under IR ) and my face sticking out. 100 yds+ definitely works OK, but beyond that, it was a little dark. So not a bad result - it looks like the current generation of Gen1's with the SPARK have enough resolution and gain to be useful in a riflescope at range. However, I was standing downrange and even at around 300 yds, could clearly make out ALL of the illuminators - they were all around 830nm I think. Very bright and easy to spot with my unaided eye, and completely unviewable with a Gen3 monocular - From a tactical perspective, the illuminator stopped me from looking in the direction Skip was standing with the lights, and I had a triple halo - would be a very effective way to stop a NV equipped group from shooting directly at you. But from a tactical perspective, even if pests don't mind the red dot, I could see it clearly with unaided vision. Also, use of strong IR causes a lot of near backscatter of light, which can obscure the target quite a bit, not to mention a lot of it makes it back to the tube and raises the noise floor of the tube quite substantially. Personally, because of this, I think the image-benefit of passive Gen2 still far outweighs the cost-benefit of active gen1, as the images above show, but if you know where you're shooting and what's in the overshoot area, these new scopes would be suitable to pick off pests at ranges to 200yds quite effectively. Regards David |
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:02:35 PM EDT
[#37]
David, you and Skip are posting very helpful information. Anyway to get the red glow out of the illuminators? It is an issue with my Armasight IR810. Even for my bugout use it is somewhat self defeating, though most thugs probably wouldn't have a clue what the red glow is.
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:49:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Hi Mate ( David ) :)
OK I have come back inside after doing some laser range finding. ( Bushnell fusion 1600 ) I'll have to go back and edit my original post. ( The Big Whitegum is 445 yards not 500 ) David ( from where we took the pics from ) The first pole is 135 yards second pole is 291 yards third is 495 fence+tree line 565 yards and last power pole with transformer in front of the big white gum is 750 yards. I reckon we should redo the tests again, on the new moon ( in the clear paddock or up the back ) next time round. I'll make up some range cards we can stick up. ( to show the range ) That long grass and weeds n shubs were Pain. Also I should of kept the light on the optic and not me free handing it as the scope and camera picked it up with the light angling down. ( I also found the other tripod ) so that will reduce noise in the pictures. I've also gotta get those dimensions too you for that ARD we talked about to try and remove those near field reflections. ( couldn't believe the tube didn't stop it even that tube that was 300mm long. The nm400-800 ir lights are from the spec sheet 850nm Anyway Off for some shut eye. I'll give ya a buzz tonight or Friday :) take care mate. Skip :) As to my Roo shooting..... It was my lively hood for many years. So I took it very serious. All targeted Roos were taken with a single shot to the brain also I made sure my quality of product was tip top :). David knows first hand at what I did. As he came out a number of times ( he was a good spotter with his thermal ) Just had to work on getting there size right
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Posted: 4/15/2014 6:53:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
David, you and Skip are posting very helpful information. Anyway to get the red glow out of the illuminators? It is an issue with my Armasight IR810. Even for my bugout use it is somewhat self defeating, though most thugs probably wouldn't have a clue what the red glow is. Bit of my humor here. It's not the red glow they should be worried about but the flash
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Posted: 4/16/2014 5:24:52 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<Snip> Anyway, just to show I can take-them with the best, here's a genuine picture of an Armasight Gen1 riflescope taken at the same time. I used a 3 second exposure to collect enough light to make it look like a Gen3. There's a lot of noise in the picture, but it did pretty well. So it is actually possible to make a Gen1 look like a Gen3 if you use a long enough exposure. I did the below with a tripod, but all the above photos were taken by hand. <Snip> Regards, David So that''s how all those Russian companies and their import gear make their gear look much better than it does real life. Another reason after 7 years of taking pics through NV all these years, I shy away from it nowadays, but we see an onslaught of foreign gear using this for promo sales.
Good report CJ. Vic |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 4:02:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bit of my humor here. It's not the red glow they should be worried about but the flash Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: David, you and Skip are posting very helpful information. Anyway to get the red glow out of the illuminators? It is an issue with my Armasight IR810. Even for my bugout use it is somewhat self defeating, though most thugs probably wouldn't have a clue what the red glow is. Bit of my humor here. It's not the red glow they should be worried about but the flash LoL! - Anyway, no - you can't adjust the intensity of the red glow - if you reduce the glow, you reduce the light and hence the range. You can reduce the power of the IR to limit the distance at which the glow can be seen, but again with range reductions. You can also change the wavelength, but 940nm isn't that visible to anything but Gen3 and even Gen3 isn't very sensitive - and it can still be seen by the eye. Bottom line - Active IR isn't covert, no matter how you cut it. Animals generally won't be spooked by it ( some foxes have demonstrated that they can learn though ) and so it's fine for hunting - but if you need to be covert to observe people, you can't use passive IR at all pretty much. I even did some calculations on 940nm light just a few weeks ago in a thread on this forum, and it should still be visible out to well over 100m, even at low intensity, so there are some exceptions for exceptionally long distance ranges, with highly diffused sources, but it would be foolish to risk it. So, for a SHTF situation, or for professional use ( tactical use, law enforcement, military, security, self protection, etc ) leave Gen1 alone entirely. For laying a bead on anything like pests or game, sure - but it's still not ideal though it has come a long way recently and is more usable now. Regards David |
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Posted: 4/16/2014 6:41:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyway, no - you can't adjust the intensity of the red glow - if you reduce the glow, you reduce the light and hence the range. You can reduce the power of the IR to limit the distance at which the glow can be seen, but again with range reductions. You can also change the wavelength, but 940nm isn't that visible to anything but Gen3 and even Gen3 isn't very sensitive - and it can still be seen by the eye. Bottom line - Active IR isn't covert, no matter how you cut it. Animals generally won't be spooked by it ( some foxes have demonstrated that they can learn though ) and so it's fine for hunting - but if you need to be covert to observe people, you can't use passive IR at all pretty much. I even did some calculations on 940nm light just a few weeks ago in a thread on this forum, and it should still be visible out to well over 100m, even at low intensity, so there are some exceptions for exceptionally long distance ranges, with highly diffused sources, but it would be foolish to risk it. So, for a SHTF situation, or for professional use ( tactical use, law enforcement, military, security, self protection, etc ) leave Gen1 alone entirely. For laying a bead on anything like pests or game, sure - but it's still not ideal though it has come a long way recently and is more usable now. Regards David Thanks David. You would think that a filter be used to take out any output of an IR illuminator below 800nm... Do you have any experience with the older ITT 160s? I could get one of them for less money and still get Gen 3 amplification. No handsfree mounting option, but it would be passive for bugout use. I could also shoot a handgun with IR laser using it if need be. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 4:58:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks David. You would think that a filter be used to take out any output of an IR illuminator below 800nm... Do you have any experience with the older ITT 160s? I could get one of them for less money and still get Gen 3 amplification. No handsfree mounting option, but it would be passive for bugout use. I could also shoot a handgun with IR laser using it if need be. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyway, no - you can't adjust the intensity of the red glow - if you reduce the glow, you reduce the light and hence the range. You can reduce the power of the IR to limit the distance at which the glow can be seen, but again with range reductions. You can also change the wavelength, but 940nm isn't that visible to anything but Gen3 and even Gen3 isn't very sensitive - and it can still be seen by the eye. Bottom line - Active IR isn't covert, no matter how you cut it. Animals generally won't be spooked by it ( some foxes have demonstrated that they can learn though ) and so it's fine for hunting - but if you need to be covert to observe people, you can't use passive IR at all pretty much. I even did some calculations on 940nm light just a few weeks ago in a thread on this forum, and it should still be visible out to well over 100m, even at low intensity, so there are some exceptions for exceptionally long distance ranges, with highly diffused sources, but it would be foolish to risk it. So, for a SHTF situation, or for professional use ( tactical use, law enforcement, military, security, self protection, etc ) leave Gen1 alone entirely. For laying a bead on anything like pests or game, sure - but it's still not ideal though it has come a long way recently and is more usable now. Regards David Thanks David. You would think that a filter be used to take out any output of an IR illuminator below 800nm... Do you have any experience with the older ITT 160s? I could get one of them for less money and still get Gen 3 amplification. No handsfree mounting option, but it would be passive for bugout use. I could also shoot a handgun with IR laser using it if need be. The problem with IR isn't output below 800nm - it's that we have some sensitivity to IR above 800nm - It's not enough that we can see the light flashing around, but if we're looking right at the source, we'll see it as a red glow. If you get a spectrograph and look at LED output's, they are pretty narrow - so a filter will only reduce the amount of IR light they are putting out. The only way to make IR invisible is to reduce it to the level that we can't see it - that means a reduction in power, or a means to greatly diffuse the source, or both. You can also increase the wavelength, but ultimately, that also reduces it's effectiveness to NV equipment - Digital can cope better than Gen3, and some Gen3 is enhanced to see up to 1u and over, but generally that's a fundamental limitation of the technology we use. SWIR is much harder ( and possibly impossible ) for us to see, so active SWIR above 1350nm is truly covert, but the cameras in our mobile phones can sometimes see it - and Gen0 NV can see it pretty well too. An ITT160? Well, they are technically Gen3, but performance is not so great - Gen3 has improved and progressed quite a lot since then, and they are often around the "Omni I" level of performance, which isn't that far above good Gen2's of the era. But yes, they are passive and if in good working order, will achieve what you want. I don't like the idea of having to hold a gun in one hand and NV in the other, but in a pinch, it's a lot better than the alternatives. If you do get one, make sure it's a very good price - for SHTF scenarios, the ENVIS M703 of the newer M903 are excellent alternatives. They'll perform around Omni IV level and have excellent tubes, often with a few small blemishes - the general idea is ENVIS are tubes that failed selection for Milspec, but were close enough that they were useful for SERE NV. They are not so common now, but show up from time to time. Regards David |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:31:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Thanks David.
My current train of thought is possibly just ponying up the coin for a PVS14. That is a big step on my budget, but it may just be the route I end up ultimately taking. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:12:19 PM EDT
[#45]
There has been alot of discussion on this thread about passive versus active and the benefits of artificial IR illumination particularly for Gen1 systems.
The one word that I have not seen mentioned regarding the difference between the various generation devices is RESOLUTION. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:26:48 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There has been alot of discussion on this thread about passive versus active and the benefits of artificial IR illumination particularly for Gen1 systems. The one word that I have not seen mentioned regarding the difference between the various generation devices is RESOLUTION. Thats the thing, the Spark is 60-70 lpm in the center. It does some things quite well for a budget price. Still, in dark conditions it needs more gain to eliminate the need for IR. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:47:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats the thing, the Spark is 60-70 lpm in the center. It does some things quite well for a budget price. Still, in dark conditions it needs more gain to eliminate the need for IR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There has been alot of discussion on this thread about passive versus active and the benefits of artificial IR illumination particularly for Gen1 systems. The one word that I have not seen mentioned regarding the difference between the various generation devices is RESOLUTION. Thats the thing, the Spark is 60-70 lpm in the center. It does some things quite well for a budget price. Still, in dark conditions it needs more gain to eliminate the need for IR. This is true - Gen1 has capability of resolutions way beyond current Gen3 levels, but the SPARK is the first tube that has taken advantage of that - The unit I reviewed was around 80 lp/mm and it really was a sharp image - the downfall is system resolution at the edge, where it drops dramatically - I haven't measured it, but it's probably around 16 lp/mm or lower - really quite poor. The useful area with respect to resolution is the center third - or an area of around 10 degrees centered on-axis. A lot of early SPARK reviews said that the system gave an image like a Gen3, and at first I thought that people were just lying, but on evaluating that, If it's a brightly lit moonlight night, it really does look like a Gen3 with poor lenses - The biggest difference between systems now is gain - and specifically system gain at that. Gen2 is an order of magnitude of the best Gen1 systems ( not including cascades ) and Gen3 almost an order of magnitude again. A current Gen3 PVS-14 is actually at the level that individual photons can be imaged to the naked eye, quantum efficiency losses notwithstanding. This is an incredible amount of gain. Anyway, the edge distortion and blurriness in Gen1 can be removed, but that would reduce resolution also. Overall, the SPARK is a good compromise, and the resolution is high enough to make target identification easy as long as you can get enough light on the subject. Regards David
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:04:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats the thing, the Spark is 60-70 lpm in the center. It does some things quite well for a budget price. Still, in dark conditions it needs more gain to eliminate the need for IR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There has been alot of discussion on this thread about passive versus active and the benefits of artificial IR illumination particularly for Gen1 systems. The one word that I have not seen mentioned regarding the difference between the various generation devices is RESOLUTION. Thats the thing, the Spark is 60-70 lpm in the center. It does some things quite well for a budget price. Still, in dark conditions it needs more gain to eliminate the need for IR. There seem to be reports of significant spherical aberration with the Armasight CORE? Coupled with the 30 degree FOV (10 degrees narrower than a PVS-14 or MUM), this consideration becomes even more important. The optics are also advertised comparatively slower at f/1.7 versus f/1.2 for the PVS-14 and MUM. Please don't read this as a dissing of the Armasight as I have never tried one firsthand, and chances are remote that I would buy one since I don't need it. I am simply attempting to illustrate that there are many factors involved in producing quality images, and doing so in the dark tends to be more challenging than in the light. It is an apples-to-oranges comparison in that the Spark is a fraction of the cost, but there are many reasons behind that fact other than the obvious tube. Thank you for educating me regarding the advertised resolution. ETA - David, I just read what you posted while I was typing. It sounds as though we are in agreement. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:10:24 PM EDT
[#49]
(@CJ)That 3+1 is simply an amazing tube. Hard to believe that is on min gain but I have used one before and am not surprised. Goes to show before price got in the way of these tubes and making standardized tubes became the priority some amazing rare special tubes were made. For the folks that don't know the PVS-4 scope has been made in several different platforms. The Holy grail is a few special super tubes.
This included the famed 25mm Gen 3+1 and the uber rare filmless 25mm Gen 3 which I have yet to lay eyes on. The PVS-4 is a amazing platform that is still hunted down by guys that know. The 25MM Gen 3+1 will destroy my best MX-11769 tubes and barely get warmed up. We can make some great tubes but today cost rules the land.
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Posted: 4/19/2014 6:50:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is true - Gen1 has capability of resolutions way beyond current Gen3 levels, but the SPARK is the first tube that has taken advantage of that - The unit I reviewed was around 80 lp/mm and it really was a sharp image - the downfall is system resolution at the edge, where it drops dramatically - I haven't measured it, but it's probably around 16 lp/mm or lower - really quite poor. The useful area with respect to resolution is the center third - or an area of around 10 degrees centered on-axis. A lot of early SPARK reviews said that the system gave an image like a Gen3, and at first I thought that people were just lying, but on evaluating that, If it's a brightly lit moonlight night, it really does look like a Gen3 with poor lenses - Yeah, the Spark can be pretty good on nights with 1/2 moon or better (or good ambient from city lights). The fact that the edge resolution is low makes it harder to use handsfree. Your eye has to be very well centered to be in that 10 degree "sweet spot". I find it is best handheld because of this. Will Gen 3 provide a full 40 degrees of sharp image? I know the gain will be MUCH better. I am really doing some soul searching on spending that much coin for a monocular. I've read about some of the Gen 2+ monoculars, but because the Spark is pretty decent, if I do this, I'm going all the way with it (Gen 3, ITT Pinnacle). |
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