Info on Zeiss/Eltro Orion 80/I (FERO Z51)

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Info on Zeiss/Eltro Orion 80/I (FERO Z51) (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 3/3/2014 8:04:28 AM EDT

Anybody knows how useable is this night vision German scope?. Can be had for less than $600 USD.

Posted: 3/3/2014 10:00:30 AM EDT

[#1]

They are large but work well and very sturdy, built to handle 7.62 all day long. There are different grades from used scopes made in the 70s that have been used and refurbed all the way to unissued new scopes made in the '90s. Some of the older scopes work just as well as the newer ones but obviously are gonna be the best option. They aren't as good as new high end US stuff but they are the very good value, people say Gen 2 equivalent.

There is at least one for sale on gunbroker right now along with Robert RTG, Copes and the places that have them for sale. You can search for active auctions as I don't want to post them.

Here is n unissued one that sold yesterday, got bidi to the $500s before somebody hit the $1k bin.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=396088820

Posted: 3/3/2014 10:54:17 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Anybody knows how useable is this night vision German scope?. Can be had for less than $600 USD.

View Quote

It's pretty useful, except for the fact that it gives everyone a small black mustache when you look through it.

Posted: 3/3/2014 11:23:24 AM EDT

[#3]

TheHorta, I knew sooner or later you'd come through. Now I can tell my wife I can get the gray spot out of my mustache and have a night vision scope too!

Posted: 3/3/2014 2:44:24 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
TheHorta, I knew sooner or later you'd come through. Now I can tell my wife I can get the gray spot out of my mustache and have a night vision scope too!

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I left out the part about it giving you an unquenchable desire to conquer Poland.

Posted: 3/3/2014 4:02:57 PM EDT

[#5]

Great, Hitler jokes in the NV section now? Thanks dude, between your "expert" opinion and your seeming desire to turn this into GD I have no desire to even bother coming here anymore.

Posted: 3/3/2014 5:43:26 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Great, Hitler jokes in the NV section now? Thanks dude, between your "expert" opinion and your seeming desire to turn this into GD I have no desire to even bother coming here anymore.

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Hmmm... OK, I have to admit I'm having difficulty processing this. Is "GD" short for "General Discussion"? I'm not sure how some light humor could make anyone feel that this forum has been poisoned beyond usefulness, and I certainly never (ever) intended to pass myself off as an authority or expert in anything NV or even firearms related. If anything, I've tried to sound as UN-authoritative and inexpert as possible, if not outright incompetent.

I'm overtly sanguine by nature, and I rarely say / write / post anything that doesn't reflect that, and this isn't the first time it's put some on edge. So, while I may not be capable of understanding exactly where you're coming from, I'll try to reign it in somewhat, though I can't promise I'll never do anything to flip your switch in the future, I'll make an effort to be more considerate.

I'm sure this isn't the last time I'll piss you off, but I can promise that, like now, it won't be done intentionally.

Mea culpa...

Posted: 3/3/2014 5:55:27 PM EDT

[#7]

Johnny and others like to keep the NV forum very technical Horta. Nothing wrong with that and is as it was designed. Problem is if you are to technical you are a nerd and not enough you are something else. It is a fine line. I try to make night vision fun while still keeping it technical. Very delicate road to drive on. Takes time and experience to find the sweet spot.

Posted: 3/3/2014 9:04:56 PM EDT

[#8]

They are excellent units, I loved the ones I have owned. Simply stunning imagery for the price, and that is coming from a guy who has owned gen 3 for nearly all of his adult life. Also, a little humor certainly never killed the NV forum unless I'm missing something here.

ETA: Not to suggest they are equivalent to gen 3 which they are not. They are EXTREMELY sensitive to point sources such as streetlights (even far away ones). Gen 3 (and most gen 2 stuff) has a huge advantage in that realm. If you live out where there are no bright point sources, or you can really minimize exposure to them, they are absolutely unparalleled for the money. If I had a place out in the complete middle of nowhere I'd own several still. Several may disagree w/ me, but I'd take one over a D740 due to the cost difference, they CAN BE that good. As w/ any surplus optic, quality WILL vary between them. Some I've used have lost a great deal of their near-IR sensitivity. This is the nature of surplus NV optics. They are fantastic though for the most part.

Posted: 3/4/2014 5:12:58 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
They are excellent units, I loved the ones I have owned. Simply stunning imagery for the price, and that is coming from a guy who has owned gen 3 for nearly all of his adult life. Also, a little humor certainly never killed the NV forum unless I'm missing something here.

ETA: Not to suggest they are equivalent to gen 3 which they are not. They are EXTREMELY sensitive to point sources such as streetlights (even far away ones). Gen 3 (and most gen 2 stuff) has a huge advantage in that realm. If you live out where there are no bright point sources, or you can really minimize exposure to them, they are absolutely unparalleled for the money. If I had a place out in the complete middle of nowhere I'd own several still. Several may disagree w/ me, but I'd take one over a D740 due to the cost difference, they CAN BE that good. As w/ any surplus optic, quality WILL vary between them. Some I've used have lost a great deal of their near-IR sensitivity. This is the nature of surplus NV optics. They are fantastic though for the most part.

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Great post. The Gen 1 cascade tubes are very good for what they cost. People shy away because they hear Gen 1 and think your normal Gen 1. These tubes are basically 3 Gen 1 tubes of high quality amplifying each other. They have tremendous gain. Downsides are tube life, weight and age. If you can find a good one they are more than useful. To think we had this technology back in the Vietnam days is truly amazing.

Posted: 3/4/2014 9:43:00 AM EDT

[#10]

If you need these we have another shipment that just came in.....Here $574.99ea..

Posted: 3/4/2014 11:51:08 PM EDT

[#11]

These are really great scopes. The optics are excellent,as you would expect from Zeis,s and the cascade tube does it's job very well, although there are variances from tube to tube. Still, each and every one of these beats a lot of early gen 2 stuff I've looked through easily. Adjustments are easy to make, reticle brightness is adjustable and mine has worked great on rifles from .22 to .308. They're best used in conjunction with an IR-illuminator and are kind of iffy in urban settings, as any light will leave a nasty trace on the image for quite some time. They do feature a sort of manual two position gain adjustment via the on/off switch and the lower setting does allow you to use them in reasonably light environments without the tube shutting down.

These are first gen. units, so they're long, heavy and loud (they REALLY whine). Apparently you can't leave the batteries in the unit, or it'll drain them (never tested this). That said, for the price I think they're a steal! The price and indestructible build of these units makes them one of my favourites and the only unit I never feel the need to baby or worry about in any way, so mine gets used a lot!

Posted: 3/5/2014 8:51:04 AM EDT

[#12]

They are the current best buy in night vision right now. If you are the least bit curious about NV, this is a cheap way to get your feet wet. Even if you already have some NV, it is a great way to get a dedicated NV rifle scope. If I didn't already have a TVS-5 (PVS-4's bigger brother), I would pick one of these up.

These are very sensitive to lights as mentioned above. It really limits it's usefulness to be as I live in the suburbs and live in the desert. But, if you live where you can get away from lights (like rural areas) or in an area with very dense trees which would block out lights, it is an excellent option. I am tempted to get one just to try it back to back with my TVS-5. It isn't going down in value unless it breaks, so you can't really loose.

Posted: 3/5/2014 9:26:39 AM EDT

[#13]

I ordered 2 this morning from Copes. I'll report back when they arrive and give my $0.02 on them. Hopefully it'll be all

and no

Posted: 3/5/2014 9:37:10 AM EDT

[#14]

You should be happy. We test each unit before they are shipped. We don't want to send you one that doesn't work.

Posted: 3/5/2014 3:57:38 PM EDT

[#15]

I ordered 1. Paid the extra 10 bucks for hand select. I don't expect much in the way of hand selection, but hopefully it'll be in good shape. If nothing else it'll be a fun toy to give to a buddy whilst hunting coyotes.

Posted: 3/5/2014 6:38:40 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
I ordered 1. Paid the extra 10 bucks for hand select. I don't expect much in the way of hand selection, but hopefully it'll be in good shape. If nothing else it'll be a fun toy to give to a buddy whilst hunting coyotes.

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A buddy of mine and I tried the hand picked vs non from a Shall Remain Nameless company (not Copes). He went for the "excellent condition" hand picked, I went for the "good condition". My items were way better. I think it all depends on whose hands are picking. I've kinda learned too, on surplus items, order more than 1 to get a good set and sell the other or keep it for parts.

Posted: 3/6/2014 12:16:06 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

A buddy of mine and I tried the hand picked vs non from a Shall Remain Nameless company (not Copes). He went for the "excellent condition" hand picked, I went for the "good condition". My items were way better. I think it all depends on whose hands are picking. I've kinda learned too, on surplus items, order more than 1 to get a good set and sell the other or keep it for parts.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I ordered 1. Paid the extra 10 bucks for hand select. I don't expect much in the way of hand selection, but hopefully it'll be in good shape. If nothing else it'll be a fun toy to give to a buddy whilst hunting coyotes.

A buddy of mine and I tried the hand picked vs non from a Shall Remain Nameless company (not Copes). He went for the "excellent condition" hand picked, I went for the "good condition". My items were way better. I think it all depends on whose hands are picking. I've kinda learned too, on surplus items, order more than 1 to get a good set and sell the other or keep it for parts.

I figured for the $10 Copes charges, it's worth a shot. I certainly wouldn't ask for hand-picked elsewhere if the option exists to ask for a tube with the specs you're trying to find.

I generally don't buy much surplus but it sounds like a decent system to go buy if you buy a lot of surplus gear.

Posted: 3/7/2014 1:46:47 PM EDT

[#18]

I have one of the copes ones from a few years back i use it as aback up in my second home, i have a arms# 7 mount for it so i can mount it on my ar

if you need a manual ( in german) im me for my e-mail

translations can be done on freetranslations.com

great scope

Posted: 3/7/2014 6:12:29 PM EDT

[#19]

This is going to be quick as I'm dead tired and gots to wake up early. Both units arrived today via FedEx. Wow, 67lbs for two of them! Opened them like a kid on Christmas. The scopes themselves weren't that heavy but the shipping containers weigh a ton. No pics till Monday as I left the laptop at work and avoid that place when I can. Anyways, both scopes were in great shape and better than I thought. One had a canvas carry the other didn't. Big deal. Each had all the mounts and they all look new unissued. The outside of the shipping containers look handled but not bad. So I tried the German batteries. I got a little hum but no green. Dropped in some fresh C batts and the tubes warmed up and all good. One was better than the other but not bad. I'm semi rural so it was easy to try out. I'd say for urban use find another device. Rural, semi rural great. Total darkness, no. Great unit for a couple hundred meters +. I mounted it on a rifle but didn't fire it. I'm sure that it'll white out like a PVS-4. Overall great value. Way better than a commercial Russian in the same price range. It's no 3rd gen but for the price it'll make a good hunting scope or entry level scope for someone. I recommend buying one and selling off the mounts you don't want/need. The H&K claw mount is worth an easy $100. Thanks Copes!

Posted: 3/10/2014 4:53:31 AM EDT

[#20]

I'm no photographer but here's what I got...

Posted: 3/10/2014 1:53:21 PM EDT

[#21]

I order mine from Dansammo.com and i got a brand new one!!! Manufacture date is 1991.
I called him to thank him and he told that most of the units he got are in excellent conditions, better than any shipment that hit our shores.

Posted: 3/18/2014 7:48:12 PM EDT

[#22]

I am bumping this to see if we can share some info on how to run these things.
What each knob does, what the click adjustments are, total adjustments, etc...
Mine did not come with the manual, can someone share or make it a PDF?
I feel like this is the night forum to be In, we should pool as much info as possible here.
+1 on dans ammo. I got a brand new 1992 one.

Posted: 3/18/2014 9:40:56 PM EDT

[#23]

for those interested, this is a link to a very thorough analysis of one of these units, explaining how everything functions.

it even describes how the internal shade can be used so the scope could be used during daylight usage.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-talk/183318-eltro-zeiss-fero-z51-nv-scope-detail.html

Posted: 3/19/2014 6:18:05 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
I order mine from Dansammo.com and i got a brand new one!!! Manufacture date is 1991.
I called him to thank him and he told that most of the units he got are in excellent conditions, better than any shipment that hit our shores.
<a href="http://s991.photobucket.com/user/petros600/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps4f89e7e3.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af37/petros600/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps4f89e7e3.jpg</a>

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Mine arrived today, looks like the only time it had been opened up was to test functionality before shipping!

It looks as if some of these have the mounting bosses above the objective drilled for the addition of an illuminator or rail.
I saw one online that was setup like this, was hoping mine could be set up in a similar fashion.

Going to test it later this evening, may pick up an additional one to use as a spare.

Apparently there is a similar design Gen II unit available on the other side of the pond.
Overall length is shorter so obviously swapping tubes isn't a possibility.

Anyone have any luck with the UTG or similar low budget Picattiny mounts?
I'm hesitant to purchase the Arms mount unless I absolutely have to.

Posted: 3/19/2014 9:02:36 PM EDT

[#25]

UTG low STANAG 13 slot mount is good to go, used it to zero one of these on my 10/22 and M4gery a couple years ago. Cheap, but it works... no guarantee of return to zero though.

Posted: 3/19/2014 9:45:13 PM EDT

[#26]

I tell you what, after messing with one of these kraut rigs, American NVG makers should be ashamed of themselves. These Nazis can build good shit. I can't believe the quality and performance over a PVS-2 and PVS-4, this thing has resolution, clarity and gain on par with earliest American gen III stuff. If I could only get ahold of their current military shit I have a feeling its superior to our stuff. ZERO black spots, ZERO chicken wire, ZERO fixed pattern noise, almost no sparkle... 1970's eurotrash surplus, WTF ITT? Step up your game.

Posted: 3/20/2014 4:41:07 PM EDT

[#27]

Played with the Orion a bit yesterday, I thought the hum was pretty entertaining.
Definitely louder than the MUM I'm used too.

Some of my initial thoughts.
Is there any way to add an IR filter to one of these, like some have done with the PVS-14. Or is that what the internal shade is?
Wondering if this would help any in a suburban environment, seems filtering out all or most of the visible light would help in that setting.

What about those mounting bosses on the top, anyone have the thread size and spacing measurements?
I'd like to be able to add an IR illuminator, it would be fine without it on an AR but other rifles will probably need it.

My original plan was to run this on a suppressed M&P15-22, but it seems like it might make it incredibly heavy.
Slightly concerned about the polymer upper being able to bear the weight.

Posted: 3/20/2014 5:21:42 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
I tell you what, after messing with one of these kraut rigs, American NVG makers should be ashamed of themselves. These Nazis can build good shit. I can't believe the quality and performance over a PVS-2 and PVS-4, this thing has resolution, clarity and gain on par with American gen III stuff. If I could only get ahold of their current military shit I have a feeling its superior to our stuff. ZERO black spots, ZERO chicken wire, ZERO fixed pattern noise, almost no sparkle... 1970's eurotrash surplus, WTF ITT? Step up your game.

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It doesn't come close to modern gen 3. America is falling behind in a lot of places, but we still rule the roost when it comes to seeing in the dark.

Posted: 3/20/2014 8:14:27 PM EDT

[#29]

I was comparing it to a very early set of PVS-7's I had time on, I think it was a Omni 1 or 2. Good to hear, I still am curious what they are using now.

Posted: 3/21/2014 3:07:37 AM EDT

[#30]

Anyone shot a 308 rifle using one?

My question is because of that light-blocking feature on the ocular rubber cap that requires us to push it forward with our eye to open it. That will reduce eye clearance to zero.

How does this work with the 308's recoil?

Posted: 3/27/2014 9:43:18 AM EDT

[#31]

Ok up-date I now have a english version for this scope thanks to a fellow member for free

I am will to pass it on to anyone looking for a copy

again E-mail me at [email protected]

Posted: 3/27/2014 7:33:31 PM EDT

[#32]

Gotta say thanks to jacksprat for the copy of the manual. It was very helpful.

Posted: 3/28/2014 8:26:26 AM EDT

[#33]

Just happened to find one from Copes on eBay... I'm so excited.

Posted: 3/28/2014 12:06:50 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ok up-date I now have a english version for this scope thanks to a fellow member for free

I am will to pass it on to anyone looking for a copy

again E-mail me at [email protected]

View Quote

Thanks a bunch, I'm looking forward to reading it tonight!

Posted: 3/28/2014 12:07:58 PM EDT

[#35]

Dupe

Posted: 3/28/2014 2:48:24 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ok up-date I now have a english version for this scope thanks to a fellow member for free

I am will to pass it on to anyone looking for a copy

again E-mail me at [email protected]

View Quote

Thanks again Jack.

It really does help to have the translated version

Posted: 3/28/2014 5:56:11 PM EDT

[#37]

I just checked Copes and hopefully they are in stock, when I was there last week the site said "out of stock", not tonight though and it took my order.

Posted: 3/29/2014 3:45:32 AM EDT

[#38]

Thanks Captainjack. It is a must have for Zeiss Orion owners.

Posted: 3/29/2014 8:30:16 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ok up-date I now have a english version for this scope thanks to a fellow member for free

I am will to pass it on to anyone looking for a copy

again E-mail me at [email protected]

View Quote

Thanks much Jack! Appreciate you sharing it. Cheers!

Posted: 3/29/2014 9:10:19 AM EDT

[#40]

Thanks Jack! Very much appreciated!

Posted: 3/29/2014 11:31:52 AM EDT

[#41]

Thanks to CaptainJack as well!

I can't begin to say how helpful this is. Its contributors like you who make the NV discussion forum one of the best on Arfcom.

EDIT:

Follow on question... has anyone rigged up a daytime filter (welding glass?) or a pinhole cover so they could sight it in during daylight hours at their local club or range? If/when I have a REAL nighttime shooting opportunity, it's just as likely to be SHTF.

Posted: 4/2/2014 7:53:11 PM EDT

[#42]

I dunno, their regular grunts are running micro binos for standard issue. I'm curious of the specs, but I'll bet there stuff is better than ours.

The thing is, just like the leopard tank, which is much more capable than an Abrams, is that they have 12 in inventory. We field thousands upon thousands, but the krauts always have better shit and they are proud of it. I suspect these days is no different.

PS- if you can't focus your zeiss, remove the focus knob (metric set screws) and set the focus stop were its gotta be.

Posted: 4/2/2014 7:59:26 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thanks to CaptainJack as well!

I can't begin to say how helpful this is. Its contributors like you who make the NV discussion forum one of the best on Arfcom.

EDIT:

Follow on question... has anyone rigged up a daytime filter (welding glass?) or a pinhole cover so they could sight it in during daylight hours at their local club or range? If/when I have a REAL nighttime shooting opportunity, it's just as likely to be SHTF.

View Quote

I understand you leave the cap in place for daylight use. It has three tiny holes that just enough light to pass.

Posted: 4/2/2014 9:29:04 PM EDT

[#44]

Got my unit today. I'll say this, that case is bomb proof! They probably could have air dropped it to me and it would have been fine.

The scope is heavy, I pictured maybe using it as a hand held spotting scope when not on the rifle. Nope, you would need a mono-pod to rest on. I am going on a hunt this weekend and it'll be on my PTR-91 so I'll be able to test it there in the dark woods. Here in the neighborhood there are too many porch and street lights to really see what it is capable of, it did have a nice picture though.

Posted: 4/3/2014 6:28:41 AM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
I understand you leave the cap in place for daylight use. It has three tiny holes that just enough light to pass.

View Quote

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to try that out.

Now my question is, how to mount it to standard Picatinny rails? I get how the HK Claw mount works. The big one like a "T" with the tall vertical rail that drops down is for the anti-tank weapon, but the mount on the scope itself, and the HK-made Elcan style adjustable mount has those stop-posts in it that would prevent them from being slid over standard rails. And they obviously don't open wide enough to go on from the side.

I'm sure it's stupid/obvious, but I'm missing it.

Posted: 4/3/2014 9:00:26 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to try that out.

Now my question is, how to mount it to standard Picatinny rails? I get how the HK Claw mount works. The big one like a "T" with the tall vertical rail that drops down is for the anti-tank weapon, but the mount on the scope itself, and the HK-made Elcan style adjustable mount has those stop-posts in it that would prevent them from being slid over standard rails. And they obviously don't open wide enough to go on from the side.

I'm sure it's stupid/obvious, but I'm missing it.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand you leave the cap in place for daylight use. It has three tiny holes that just enough light to pass.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to try that out.

Now my question is, how to mount it to standard Picatinny rails? I get how the HK Claw mount works. The big one like a "T" with the tall vertical rail that drops down is for the anti-tank weapon, but the mount on the scope itself, and the HK-made Elcan style adjustable mount has those stop-posts in it that would prevent them from being slid over standard rails. And they obviously don't open wide enough to go on from the side.

I'm sure it's stupid/obvious, but I'm missing it.

You need to buy a STANAG to Picatinny adapter. ARMS makes a thumb screw one and a throw lever one, and UTG makes ones that actually has pretty good reviews considering it's UTG.

Posted: 4/3/2014 11:04:14 AM EDT

[#47]

Is this riser, if I'm reading it right, cut for Picatinny and STANAG, because it's got those U-shaped notches in the end that the STANAG stubby stop-post can slide into?

http://www.leapers.com/prod_detail.php?mitem=mount&itemno=MNT-RS05L

Just for something cheap to try as I figure out what I'm ultimately going to do with the scope..

Posted: 4/3/2014 5:24:47 PM EDT

[#48]

Got mine today too. Case is bomb proof. Will test out tomorrow. Mine looks like it was made in 78. I hope is still has some life to it.

Posted: 4/3/2014 5:52:43 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
Anyone shot a 308 rifle using one?

My question is because of that light-blocking feature on the ocular rubber cap that requires us to push it forward with our eye to open it. That will reduce eye clearance to zero.

How does this work with the 308's recoil?

View Quote

GTG with 308, designed for hk91 and mg3

Posted: 4/3/2014 8:29:47 PM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is this riser, if I'm reading it right, cut for Picatinny and STANAG, because it's got those U-shaped notches in the end that the STANAG stubby stop-post can slide into?

http://www.leapers.com/prod_detail.php?mitem=mount&itemno=MNT-RS05L

Just for something cheap to try as I figure out what I'm ultimately going to do with the scope..

View Quote

There are two ARMS mounts you can use. The #7 and the #19A. I went with the #19A because of the return-to-zero feature. About twice the price of the #7 but worth it if you will use a daylight scope in the same rifle.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Info on Zeiss/Eltro Orion 80/I (FERO Z51) (Page 1 of 2)

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