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Posted: 11/25/2014 1:20:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
What exactly will my lower need to say once I get a approved forum 1? Here is a example of my trust name. The guncrazy72 family NFA firingarms trust. Will that all need to be engraved onto my lower? Ive seen various ways of engraving the trust name. All that AND the city/town name and state abbreviation. If you have not submitted any Forms yet, contact the lawyer who drafted your trust and ask him/her to amend it and rename it to guncrazy72 Trust... |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 1:32:34 PM EDT
[#2]
Yep, the whole trust name, plus city/state.
That's why my trust is named the "XXYY" Trust. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 2:59:15 PM EDT
[#3]
•The city, state will be the location you made the firearm. Doesn't necessarily mean the mailing address on the F1.
•The trust name should be the complete trust name, which is what should be on the F1. •Caliber must be engraved. This only comes into play if your lower is marked "multi" and the upper/barrel isn't marked. The ATF put out a fairly clear ruling last year. You can read it here. |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:16:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
•The city, state will be the location you made the firearm. Doesn't necessarily mean the mailing address on the F1. •The trust name should be the complete trust name, which is what should be on the F1. •Caliber must be engraved. This only comes into play if your lower is marked "multi" and the upper/barrel isn't marked. The ATF put out a fairly clear ruling last year. You can read it here. Where does that link say you have to engrave place where the SBR was made instead of trust location? |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:25:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Well, first, a trust does not have a location--it's a legal fiction that does not occupy or reside in any location. Second, in the middle of page 2, mention is made of the "place of origin", referring to 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2). That regulation is very specific:
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and The city and state where you made the firearm. Doesn't get clearer than that. |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:31:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where does that link say you have to engrave place where the SBR was made instead of trust location? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
•The city, state will be the location you made the firearm. Doesn't necessarily mean the mailing address on the F1. •The trust name should be the complete trust name, which is what should be on the F1. •Caliber must be engraved. This only comes into play if your lower is marked "multi" and the upper/barrel isn't marked. The ATF put out a fairly clear ruling last year. You can read it here. Where does that link say you have to engrave place where the SBR was made instead of trust location? It doesn't directly, unfortunately. However, one of the statutes it references, 479.102(a) How Must a Firearm be Identified, includes this section: (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and Manufacturer = place of business Maker = where made Form 1 is titled "Application to Make and Register a Firearm"...thus you are a maker not a manufacturer. Manufacturing is a whole different set if rules/taxes/laws/fees/etc. ETA: dan beat me to it...to busy watching football while copying/pasting the reg 
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:31:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice?
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:39:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice? Not legal advice...but if it was my firearm it would say Miami, FL. Have a buddy here that lives in a suburb of Charlotte, with the town limits of Mint Hill. Mailing address is Charlotte...but he opted to engrave Mint Hill since it's his actual location. Reality is I can't imagine they care. If you showed the initiative to get it engraved, that shows you know it was a requirement. The reality is they'd never know where it was made. You could possess the lower and upper...drive a foot past the sign that says Miami City Limits, attach the upper to the lower for the first time, and you've met the letter of the law and "made" the firearm in Miami, FL. On the other hand...you may prefer it to say North Miami Beach. |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:45:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Rule of thumb. I would engrave whatever address is listed on the form 1. If it's not the location it will be made.... Well it'll be location of where it's stored and registered.
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Posted: 11/27/2014 11:59:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rule of thumb. I would engrave whatever address is listed on the form 1. If it's not the location it will be made.... Well it'll be location of where it's stored and registered. Do what you feel comfortable with...but the statute isn't written that way. Reality is I'd guess a majority of people have their home address on the form, and make the firearm at home. But, the statute would allow you an "out" if you live in Winchestertonfieldville, Iowa but you work or have a friend with a shop in nearby Anytown, IA.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 12:16:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, the whole trust name, plus city/state. That's why my trust is named the "XXYY" Trust. Ours is named similar "Xxxxx Trust" for the same reason! 
BigDozer66 |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 8:27:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rule of thumb. I would engrave whatever address is listed on the form 1. If it's not the location it will be made.... Well it'll be location of where it's stored and registered. How about this rule of thumb: do what the regulation clearly says. Engrave the place where you're actually going to assemble it into an SBR for the first time. It isn't difficult or complicated; it just takes a little bit of planning (since you obviously have to engrave before you assemble). Yes, 99% of the time it'll be assembled at home. Yes, the odds are virtually nil that a violation would be caught. But the rules are there, they're as clear as they can be, and they're not at all difficult to follow. Why not follow them? |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 4:24:51 PM EDT
[#13]
yes regulations says to put where the sbr is assembled. Most of the time, it's done at home unless you happen to do it at work or paid a builder to build it which wouldn't make sense since you're already form 1 it or else you would just buy a form 4 sbr. I don't know how serious they take engravings but I don't know how you would explain to a newb LEO why your form 1 says this address but AR engravings says another location.
I don't know exact wording of the regulation but I believe it is based on whatever address you list on the form 1. If it wasn't, people can take a colt lower and say it was assembled in Hartford, CT to cut down on additional engravings. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 4:29:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know how serious they take engravings but I don't know how you would explain to a newb LEO why your form 1 says this address but AR engravings says another location. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know how serious they take engravings but I don't know how you would explain to a newb LEO why your form 1 says this address but AR engravings says another location. And I can't imagine a single circumstance where that situation would happen. Most local LEO don't have a clue about NFA laws. A lot of people would say there's no reason to even show a LEO an F1/F4, although I'd do it without hesitation if I thought it would save me a ride downtown and having my weapons even confiscated for a short time. However, it would be a simple explanation of "here's the serial number on the form, here's the matching SN on the firearm". The engraving I added wouldn't be part of the discussion. Again...as we agree, it's most likely a non-issue. But, the statute is very clear. Quoted:
I don't know exact wording of the regulation but I believe it is based on whatever address you list on the form 1. If it wasn't, people can take a colt lower and say it was assembled in Hartford, CT to cut down on additional engravings. The exact wording has been posted in this thread several times already. At least once by me and once by danb35. If you lived in or near Hartford, CT...just add your name above or below Colt's. 
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Posted: 11/28/2014 4:31:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I can't imagine a single circumstance where that situation would happen. Most local LEO don't have a clue about NFA laws. A lot of people would say there's no reason to even show a LEO an F1/F4, although I'd do it without hesitation if I thought it would save me a ride downtown and having my weapons even confiscated for a short time. However, it would be a simple explanation of "here's the serial number on the form, here's the matching SN on the firearm". The engraving I added wouldn't be part of the discussion. Again...as we agree, it's most likely a non-issue. But, the statute is very clear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't know how serious they take engravings but I don't know how you would explain to a newb LEO why your form 1 says this address but AR engravings says another location. And I can't imagine a single circumstance where that situation would happen. Most local LEO don't have a clue about NFA laws. A lot of people would say there's no reason to even show a LEO an F1/F4, although I'd do it without hesitation if I thought it would save me a ride downtown and having my weapons even confiscated for a short time. However, it would be a simple explanation of "here's the serial number on the form, here's the matching SN on the firearm". The engraving I added wouldn't be part of the discussion. Again...as we agree, it's most likely a non-issue. But, the statute is very clear. I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying. If someone wants clear answer, call NFA branch. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 9:50:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know exact wording of the regulation but I believe it is based on whatever address you list on the form 1. If it wasn't, people can take a colt lower and say it was assembled in Hartford, CT to cut down on additional engravings. Yes, you do know the exact wording of the regulation, because I posted it. I also gave you a link to the full section, if you want the context, or if you don't believe I quoted it accurately. Your belief is simply incorrect--the address on the Form 1 has nothing to do with what's required to be engraved. The regulation requires (for a Form 1 item) the place where the firearm is made, full stop. And yes, if you make a Colt lower into an SBR in Hartford, CT, you can save engraving the city and state. If you want a clear answer, you might get it by wasting your time calling ATF--or you can just read the regulation and do what it says. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 9:57:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, you do know the exact wording of the regulation, because I posted it. I also gave you a link to the full section, if you want the context, or if you don't believe I quoted it accurately. Your belief is simply incorrect--the address on the Form 1 has nothing to do with what's required to be engraved. The regulation requires (for a Form 1 item) the place where the firearm is made, full stop. And yes, if you make a Colt lower into an SBR in Hartford, CT, you can save engraving the city and state. If you want a clear answer, you might get it by wasting your time calling ATF--or you can just read the regulation and do what it says. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't know exact wording of the regulation but I believe it is based on whatever address you list on the form 1. If it wasn't, people can take a colt lower and say it was assembled in Hartford, CT to cut down on additional engravings. Yes, you do know the exact wording of the regulation, because I posted it. I also gave you a link to the full section, if you want the context, or if you don't believe I quoted it accurately. Your belief is simply incorrect--the address on the Form 1 has nothing to do with what's required to be engraved. The regulation requires (for a Form 1 item) the place where the firearm is made, full stop. And yes, if you make a Colt lower into an SBR in Hartford, CT, you can save engraving the city and state. If you want a clear answer, you might get it by wasting your time calling ATF--or you can just read the regulation and do what it says. Yes I read the regulation and its clear. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 10:04:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how would the ATF determine whats legit location and not? I'm not saying any of you are wrong. I'm just trying to figure it out. Yes, I read the regulation and it is clear but what determine the location? There must be a reason why they need the location engraved. They can't. Just like they can't prove whether you initially put an upper on the lower that matches the F1, or you test fit a different length/caliber instead. And they can't know if you configured the lower into a rifle before you configured it into a pistol. They enforce the statutes that exist and trust that law-abiding citizens are doing what the statutes say. |
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Posted: 11/29/2014 1:28:23 PM EDT
[#19]
So, I got the 199Trust deal. I am assuming it is a Revocable Living Trust.
Would you say something like "First Initial Last Name Revocable Living Trust" is acceptable as a trust name? Assuming that would allow my engraving to be "J Smith RLT"? |
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Posted: 11/29/2014 2:23:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, I got the 199Trust deal. I am assuming it is a Revocable Living Trust. Would you say something like "First Initial Last Name Revocable Living Trust" is acceptable as a trust name? Assuming that would allow my engraving to be "J Smith RLT"? You can't abbreviate to "RLT". Just do J Smith Trust and be done with it. If I had the chance to redo mine, it would be something as simple as ABC Trust, with ABC being my initials. Currently mine is Lastname Living Trust. The document will determine if it's Living/Revocable/etc...no need for the title to declare it. |
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Posted: 11/29/2014 2:51:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice? North Miami Beach is a completely separate municipality from Miami. Each has their own city council, police force, etc. If you want to meet the letter of the law, engrave the name of the place you actually live, not the name of a random nearby city. |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 9:24:56 AM EDT
[#22]
i would advise to boil it own to 2 words.
GUNCRAZY72 TRUST and thats it. |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 5:17:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
North Miami Beach is a completely separate municipality from Miami. Each has their own city council, police force, etc. If you want to meet the letter of the law, engrave the name of the place you actually live, not the name of a random nearby city. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice? North Miami Beach is a completely separate municipality from Miami. Each has their own city council, police force, etc. If you want to meet the letter of the law, engrave the name of the place you actually live, not the name of a random nearby city. Tony, Not to be contrary, but the regulations say to engrave where you made the firearm, which may or may not be the same location as where you live. In my case I just submitted Form 1's to SBR a couple mini uzi carbines. With a little planning I will be in Miami, FL the first time I slap short barrels on them, rather than the nearby city where my mailing address is, since my mailing address city is rather longer. Block 3b simply states name and mailing address, and I have not seen anything saying that you must make the firearm where you receive your mail. |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 7:17:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tony, Not to be contrary, but the regulations say to engrave where you made the firearm, which may or may not be the same location as where you live. In my case I just submitted Form 1's to SBR a couple mini uzi carbines. With a little planning I will be in Miami, FL the first time I slap short barrels on them, rather than the nearby city where my mailing address is, since my mailing address city is rather longer. Block 3b simply states name and mailing address, and I have not seen anything saying that you must make the firearm where you receive your mail. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice? North Miami Beach is a completely separate municipality from Miami. Each has their own city council, police force, etc. If you want to meet the letter of the law, engrave the name of the place you actually live, not the name of a random nearby city. Tony, Not to be contrary, but the regulations say to engrave where you made the firearm, which may or may not be the same location as where you live. In my case I just submitted Form 1's to SBR a couple mini uzi carbines. With a little planning I will be in Miami, FL the first time I slap short barrels on them, rather than the nearby city where my mailing address is, since my mailing address city is rather longer. Block 3b simply states name and mailing address, and I have not seen anything saying that you must make the firearm where you receive your mail. You are correct, that is what the regs say. And not that anyone would ever actually question it ... but if they did, you may have some 'splaining to do. I like my forms to match my NFA items themselves. It just makes it less of a hassle when I have to show them and match them up at machine gun shoots. Your Mileage May Vary. 
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Posted: 11/30/2014 9:34:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are correct, that is what the regs say. And not that anyone would ever actually question it ... but if they did, you may have some 'splaining to do. I like my forms to match my NFA items themselves. It just makes it less of a hassle when I have to show them and match them up at machine gun shoots. Your Mileage May Vary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok so along the same lines I live in a city that is in the greater Miami area . Do I need to engrave North Miami Beach,FL? Or will Miami, FL suffice? North Miami Beach is a completely separate municipality from Miami. Each has their own city council, police force, etc. If you want to meet the letter of the law, engrave the name of the place you actually live, not the name of a random nearby city. Tony, Not to be contrary, but the regulations say to engrave where you made the firearm, which may or may not be the same location as where you live. In my case I just submitted Form 1's to SBR a couple mini uzi carbines. With a little planning I will be in Miami, FL the first time I slap short barrels on them, rather than the nearby city where my mailing address is, since my mailing address city is rather longer. Block 3b simply states name and mailing address, and I have not seen anything saying that you must make the firearm where you receive your mail. You are correct, that is what the regs say. And not that anyone would ever actually question it ... but if they did, you may have some 'splaining to do. I like my forms to match my NFA items themselves. It just makes it less of a hassle when I have to show them and match them up at machine gun shoots. Your Mileage May Vary. Good point. I'll probably start keeping a copy of the regs with my reduced & laminated approved forms. Hell I might even laminate that too 
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