Read it and weep:

Start AT BOTTOM OF PAGE 12



https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/inside-atf/2013/082913-wash-machine-guns-destructive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf

But our friends at the nfatco said that our friends at the obunghole BATFE promised to do away with the CLEO certification!

So each person on the trust would need the signature?

If these rules pass, NFATCA will be the first advocacy organization to effectively kill off the industry it was supposed to advocate for.

As we say - STOP WRITING LETTERS!!!!.

....?


So from the other thread stating possibly 3-6 months?  Updated to.....now?

Any idea when this is going into effect & the impact on pending form 1/4s?

I thought obama was forcing this through executive order. Wouldn't that expire at the end of his term?

Who is John Galt?



 

doubletap

EOs don't expire. they never have

I was thinking about recess appointments. It's late early.

early for you, late for me...

Since this is 'proposed rulemaking', do we have time to start the process or is it already too late?

Normally, the first EO signed by the president just after he's sworn in is one stating that all previous EO 's are in force...... so, no.

So, if these proposed rules go into effect, the ATF has just killed the new eForm system it just created.  Do I have that right?

Ugh.

until gun owners are willing to treat gun laws like illegals treat immigration laws, expect to continue losing.

congress is NOT going to help you. the president is NOT going to help you. the courts are NOT going to help you.

I hope that ANYONE here who is a member of that horrible orginazation is already an EX MEMBER.....

Thanks to THEIR efforts bringing Trusts to the spotlight of the Anti-2A administration, now LAW ABIDING CITIZENS who live in anti 2A CLEO jurisdictions are back where they started....  Great job NFATCO!!

`
plus 1

treat em like stop signs,

Hahaha, whats that saying, be careful what you wish for.... GOOOO NFACTA!!!

They can go eat a dick if they think I'm asking for permission from a corrupt organization any more.

I wouldnt doubt that my pending forms will be kicked back.

Pg 9 of the OP link, look as this quote!

"The NFATCA expressed concern that persons who are prohibited by law from possessing or receiving firearms my acquire NFA firearms through the establishment of a legal entity such as a corporation, trust, or partnership. "

What's also great about NFATCA, well go check out their FB book page or forum. They stated they haven't had a chance to "express their opinion" to the proposed rule change, or this gem, "We have not been allowed to express *any* official opinion on the trust/corp issues, including CLEO notice." Oh wait here's another good one! "The ATF/DOJ didn't solicit our opinions, therefore we have not been allowed to officially comment." I guess that is true, the ATF didn't solicit NFATCA's opinion, NFATCA went to them and gave their opinion.  

Eric Holder is not going to do gun owners any favors.

At this time I would bet all forms in pipeline will be kicked back. I further think they will offer a 1-2 year grace period for all legal entities to come into compliance with the new rules. JMO.

 what a bunch of imbeciles. If my pending forms get kicked back, it's going to be a major, major PITA for me - I'm moving to a new state next year.

Nothing is official yet. Nobody knows what the actual language will look like until it goes into effect.

For sure, they are trying to make things more onerous. But issues like grandfathering and existing trusts, etc. pose interesting problems. Is the BATFE going to raid the home of every trustee to confiscate legally registered and owned items? I couldn't imagine that.

Curious, to know what happens to existing approved forms under the trust. Are they grandfathered in or do they NOW need to be somehow approved by the local police chief ?

I couldn't imagine a lot of things that this administration has done already!!

Kind of like gangs extracting 'protection money'.

Shouldn't these organizations that promise to not harm us if we pay them $ be able to be convicted under the RICO statutes?

does anybody have the complete text or even just the executive order number? I am trying to write letters and make sontact on these issues and I have no easy way of referencing them

It's funny how expedient they are when it comes to stripping lawabiding citizens of their rights.

It is NOT a EO. It is a proposed Rule Change. The complete set of proposals is in my OP.

LOL. I knew somebody was going to comment on that. Touché.

I just read the whole proposal. The funny thing is, which should have been expected, is that the proposed language does NOT eliminate the CLEO certification, it only expands it.

I'm afraid that "responsible persons" for trusts will have to submit identifying info, but I hope that doesn't include beneficiaries, etc.

I also love how the document starts off by saying that individuals in trusts escape background checks, then it lists all of the databases that they search before approving/denying an application. Their only example is of an application for a suppressor that was denied.

What a joke.

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/inside-atf/2013/082913-wash-machine-guns-destructive-devices-and-certain-other-firearms.pdf

Ok we been dealt a shitty hand, lets say a Republican President gets elected come 2016, can he and will he reverse all the wrongdoing done ?

yes


probably not

I'm more concerned with finding ways to challenge these and other NFA restrictions using the judicial system. Hoping for a reversal by any other means seems naïve at this point.

so I  see it calls for public comment on page two. identify by docket number, ATF 41P. it also gives the website, regulations.gov. I have not been aby to find the proposed rule change to submit a comment. anyone have any guidance on this?

Goddamnit.

Of what little I have seen and heard about NFATCA is their only goal is to unsure that the value of their machine guns continue to increase.

Hell, we'd still have the AWB today if there wasn't a sunset provision.  

Government only gets bigger....the regulations we have to hurdle through will only become more onerous.

Of what little I have seen and heard about NFATCA is their only goal is to insure that the value of their machine guns continue to increase. FIFY

 

If so, they suck at that too.  A rule change which makes a significant portion of the population  ineligible unable to own NFA doesn't help MG values.  Hell, a large part of the increase in MG value is probably due to the proliferation of trusts....

+1

MG values will plummet if this goes through.

I agree. However, I also tend to feel that CLEOs who refuse to sign will now be exposed to legal challenges.

We would also still have it if an extension had made its way to GW's desk.

The value of MGs will stay the same or go up even if this passes.

If you really want a MG you'll start asking all the CLEO if they'll sign.

Odds are you can find one. Most people are affraid to ask.

I originally was going to the trust route but I decided to send emails out to my Citys Chief of Police, Sherrif, District Attorney, (6) County Judges, Prosecutor, and a couple State Judges. I eplained the ATF form and asked if they could review mine and sign.

Believe it or not, over half of them would sign it. Only one said they would not, the Prosecutor. The Chief of Police, Sheriff, (4) County Judges all emailed me back stating they would sign. The rest of the people didnt return my email so I assume thier answer was no.

My chief signed and returned my papers in 3 hours.

Nobody knows what exactly will happend but it certainly doesnt look good for Trust /Corp Entities and the NFA community in general.

If this goes forward. I would suspect that the NFA branch will continue to process forms in order until the new rule goes into effect and at some point will kick back all pending applications for responsible party documentation and CLEO.  At some point wiith a new rule they will have to issue a cutoff and will probably pick some date that the new rules are in effect.  I would suspect it won't matter if your application was post-stamped before that date, check cashed, pending, or one day away from getting your stamp.   Once it goes for final review after whatever date they pick the app will go back to the applicant.  They may also do some sort of proactive sweep of all non-individual/CLEOed apps after some cutoff date and send them back by the bucket-full vs. sending them back one by one as they come across the examiners desk.

I agree there is a decent chance that eventually the ATF may reach out to all trusts and corporate entities to submit responsible party documentation.  Not sure if it would be required or what would happen if you refuse to send but it would seem pretty difficult to go back and back and make people get CLEO sigs for stuff approved 10 years ago.  That would definately trigger multiple  lawsuits from very deep pocketed folks who own hundreds of thousands to million+  dollars of NFA under corps that couldnt get CLEO sigs.  Trying to force that type of proposal would turn into a logistical and litigious nightmare.  May be most expedious for the ATF to request from completed corp transfers,  a responsible party be identified and get basic information on that naturalized person to conduct a background check but not require fingerprints or CLEO. (the same as they have done in the past when items fall under the purvue of the NFA like Street Sweeper DD registration).  You figure most folks with approved corporate transfers would most likely comply when faced a demand letter from the ATF for basic 4473 type information for a responsible naturalized person that would take 5 minutes to complete.  It would then be much easier to play hardball with  the >10%  who refuse to provide basic 4473 information vs. the 90+% who would refuse or be unable to generate a CLEO sig.

One thing is for sure is that it will definately put a major crimp in the industry as a universal CLEO requirement for future transfers will probably remove 50 to 80% of the civilian customer base.  I would suspect you will see machinegun prices stagnate and maybe even fall, most of the small time suppressor vendors without government contracts go out of business,  and maybe even a large suppressor mfg  two who over-extended themselves with production capacity and machinery to meet recent demand that will basically evaporate into thin air as their customer base is cut in half.  

It would just add insult to injury when 6 to 12 months worth of backed up transfer fall on the wrong side of the date cutoff and 90% of those kicked back corporate/trust applicants are stuck with purchases they can't complete because of he CLEO requirement and look to unload their machineguns and suppressors onto a greatly dimished market-base who can still get a CLEO sig or are SOTs.  Ultimately driving down pricing as thousands of folks in  transfer limbo compete with one another to recoup as many cents on the dollar for the NFA item they purchased but will never be able to take possession of unless they move to a more friendly jurisiction or get an FFL/SOT.

Hopefully this new rule regarding CLEO sigs won't make it all the way though the process, but it's unfortunately it's looking more and more likely.

So, in Clarksburg, WV, it's Federal Friday before a three-day holiday weekend and this crap comes down the pike.  I bet there's not a single examiner doing shit today.  They're probably all high-fiving and shit.

Those lawsuits have all been filed and lost. CLEO not being required to sign is a Case Law settled matter.

At what point then is the CLEO responsible for denying you a constitutionally protected right? I see this leading to a challenge of the constitutionality of the NFA.

I would also be curious to see what the basis was for ruling in favor of letting CLEOs arbitrarily deny requests of this nature.