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Posted: 1/22/2012 11:05:06 AM EDT
[#1]
It's not an end run around the NFA of 1934 because the provision for transfers to an LLC (or trust) is written into the law. BATF hates it, but it's in there. As you note, it raises the prospect of the LLC changing hands without any transfer being done. Theoretically it would be entirely legal.
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Posted: 1/22/2012 6:18:46 PM EDT
[#2]
It can be done. Happens with corporations all the time. When Bushmaster sold a while back all their machine guns went with the ownership of the corp. It is just not smart to do it purely to avoid the transfer tax.
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Posted: 1/22/2012 6:29:03 PM EDT
[#3]
In my state it wouldn't be worth it just to avoid a transfer cost. The yearly "Business entity tax" on an LLC is $250.
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Posted: 1/22/2012 7:23:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
In my state it wouldn't be worth it just to avoid a transfer cost. The yearly "Business entity tax" on an LLC is $250. Thankfully VA is only $50 a year! |
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Posted: 1/22/2012 7:24:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
It can be done. Happens with corporations all the time. When Bushmaster sold a while back all their machine guns went with the ownership of the corp. It is just not smart to do it purely to avoid the transfer tax. Interesting to know. |
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Posted: 1/22/2012 7:48:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
It can be done. Happens with corporations all the time. When Bushmaster sold a while back all their machine guns went with the ownership of the corp. It is just not smart to do it purely to avoid the transfer tax. It sounds like this could result in a firearm being transferred to a non-qualified individual(felon?). |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 7:53:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: In my state it wouldn't be worth it just to avoid a transfer cost. The yearly "Business entity tax" on an LLC is $250. Thankfully VA is only $50 a year! And Texas is $0. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 7:54:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: It can be done. Happens with corporations all the time. When Bushmaster sold a while back all their machine guns went with the ownership of the corp. It is just not smart to do it purely to avoid the transfer tax. It sounds like this could result in a firearm being transferred to a non-qualified individual(felon?). I am sure there are plenty of felons with ownership in corps that own firearms. As the long as they do not possess, no real problem. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 7:55:25 AM EDT
[#9]
$100 in NH. (But I consider it worth it)
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:00:04 AM EDT
[#10]
So if my trust was formed in AZ and I PCS to a state with a business entity tax, am I obligated to pay that states tax even though my trust was formed specific to AZ?
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:04:22 AM EDT
[#11]
How about lets not ask fucking questions like this before shit gets real from the ATF? Stupid ass questions like the OP's are how we lost a whole slew of rights due to ATF "rulings".
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:25:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
How about lets not ask fucking questions like this before shit gets real from the ATF? Stupid ass questions like the OP's are how we lost a whole slew of rights due to ATF "rulings". Oh please. The business owns the firearm, it is a legitimate inquiry. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:57:42 AM EDT
[#13]
I'm sure the ATF lawyers are well aware of this.
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Posted: 1/23/2012 12:13:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
So if my trust was formed in AZ and I PCS to a state with a business entity tax, am I obligated to pay that states tax even though my trust was formed specific to AZ? A trust is not a business entity, so no tax applies. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 12:21:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
In my state it wouldn't be worth it just to avoid a transfer cost. The yearly "Business entity tax" on an LLC is $250. Some states are far higher. CA tops $1000 per year. Dont Forget set-up costs. Don't forget quarterly corporate income tax filings to the IRS regardless of the state you live in. An LLC is not a very cost effective way to own NFA almost anywhere if you use the time=money formula. If you cannot get the CLEO signature, then you gotta do what you gotta do, but there are better routes to take. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 12:58:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So if my trust was formed in AZ and I PCS to a state with a business entity tax, am I obligated to pay that states tax even though my trust was formed specific to AZ? A trust is not a business entity, so no tax applies. Yeah I though about that one after posting...For some reason I read LLC and translated it to trust... 
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Posted: 1/23/2012 1:03:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I'm sure the ATF lawyers are well aware of this. So were the IRS lawyers when it was passed 75+ years ago... |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 1:37:42 PM EDT
[#18]
I was recently looking through the list of FFLs in the US and was amused at the number of car dealerships and plumbing supply companies that have FFLs.
I suspect people with existing corporate structures do the same thing for NFA. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 3:08:03 PM EDT
[#19]
i was thinking about this for sake of transferring with a Trust. just have a generic name trust not your own name when its time to sell change the trust to include the seller, take yours off. since the trust owns it its not tax evasion since the weapon is owned by the trust.
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Posted: 1/23/2012 3:15:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
i was thinking about this for sake of transferring with a Trust. just have a generic name trust not your own name when its time to sell change the trust to include the seller, take yours off. since the trust owns it its not tax evasion since the weapon is owned by the trust. You cannot transfer ownership of a Trust, just the assets it contains. As stated before, a trust is not a business entity. It cannot be owned or transferred, it cannot be licensed for any business purposes, firearms related or not. It's strictly for asset protection in estate planning. It is allowed to own titled assets, like homes, cars and guns, for this reason. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 3:42:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I suspect people with existing corporate structures do the same thing for NFA. That wouldn't be too smart for a business, as if it goes out of business, goes BK, or gets sued the business could be forced to sell those toys to pay off creditors. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 8:41:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Just for the record I was talking about transferring of ownership of corporate stock or LLC membership interests. I was not suggesting this should be done with trusts. Selling the right to be a trustee of a trust is much more sticky. I would not recommend that at all.
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Posted: 1/24/2012 6:09:00 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
i was thinking about this for sake of transferring with a Trust. just have a generic name trust not your own name when its time to sell change the trust to include the seller, take yours off. since the trust owns it its not tax evasion since the weapon is owned by the trust. You cannot transfer ownership of a Trust, just the assets it contains. As stated before, a trust is not a business entity. It cannot be owned or transferred, it cannot be licensed for any business purposes, firearms related or not. It's strictly for asset protection in estate planning. It is allowed to own titled assets, like homes, cars and guns, for this reason. Trust laws vary by state, but in general, they can own any type of property. They are not limited to titled assets. |
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Posted: 1/24/2012 8:39:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i was thinking about this for sake of transferring with a Trust. just have a generic name trust not your own name when its time to sell change the trust to include the seller, take yours off. since the trust owns it its not tax evasion since the weapon is owned by the trust. You cannot transfer ownership of a Trust, just the assets it contains. As stated before, a trust is not a business entity. It cannot be owned or transferred, it cannot be licensed for any business purposes, firearms related or not. It's strictly for asset protection in estate planning. It is allowed to own titled assets, like homes, cars and guns, for this reason. Trust laws vary by state, but in general, they can own any type of property. They are not limited to titled assets. Of course. There's no difference in state law whatsoever on that regard. |
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Posted: 1/24/2012 3:47:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
How about lets not ask fucking questions like this before shit gets real from the ATF? Stupid ass questions like the OP's are how we lost a whole slew of rights due to ATF "rulings". got a pretty severe case of butthurt don't ya? What rights exactly were lost due to somebody asking a question? What specific cases do you have that show that asking a question on a public forum are detrimental to our hobby? you need to calm down and not post if your just going to come in here and make an ass of yourself. |
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Posted: 1/26/2012 3:39:19 AM EDT
[#26]
In KY, it is 40.00 to start an LLC with the Secretary of State's office. 15.00 a year for annual reports, and 175.00 annual minimum tax.
In KY Trusts are NOT registered with the SOS and they are not taxed. My advise is to strongly consider a trust. all you need is to have a nice collection of toys in an LLC and accidentally forget to file your annual report. BIG NFA infraction occurs if you do or don't do anything to disrupt the corporate vail. Trusts, at least in KY, don't have this problem. I spoke with a retired ATF agent, Wally Nelson, at the Shot Show University about the "Loop hole" of members of LLC's and Trustees NOT being vetted by the FBI. He asked around and emaild me the following information: "Good morning John. I hope you had a great SHOT Show. I followed up on your question about Form 4473 NICS checks on trust and corporate officers obtaining just an NFA weapon with both ATF and the FBI. Of course I did this without mentioning anyone's name. The GCA imposed requirements for a NICS check provided and exception for the transfer of an NFA firearm. So you cannot be required to conduct a NICS check on the transfer of a NFA firearm to an officer of a trust or corporation even though they also did not submit fingerprints to the ATF NFA branch either. ATF is well aware of this situation. When the Brady Act was passed in 1993, it appears that the issue of trusts and corporate NFA transfers was not considered. An FBI representative at its booth confirmed for me the fact that a NICS check in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm would not violate its regulations. Therefore you can conduct a NICS check on an officer of a corporation or a trust, but the GCA does not require it. Hope this answers your question. Wally Nelson" I thought this was interesting and MAYBE a lead to what will be required in the future. A New check box on the NICS e check site for NFA checks.......... |
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Posted: 2/4/2012 5:28:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
In KY, it is 40.00 to start an LLC with the Secretary of State's office. 15.00 a year for annual reports, and 175.00 annual minimum tax. In KY Trusts are NOT registered with the SOS and they are not taxed. My advise is to strongly consider a trust. all you need is to have a nice collection of toys in an LLC and accidentally forget to file your annual report. BIG NFA infraction occurs if you do or don't do anything to disrupt the corporate vail. Trusts, at least in KY, don't have this problem. I spoke with a retired ATF agent, Wally Nelson, at the Shot Show University about the "Loop hole" of members of LLC's and Trustees NOT being vetted by the FBI. He asked around and emaild me the following information: "Good morning John. I hope you had a great SHOT Show. I followed up on your question about Form 4473 NICS checks on trust and corporate officers obtaining just an NFA weapon with both ATF and the FBI. Of course I did this without mentioning anyone's name. The GCA imposed requirements for a NICS check provided and exception for the transfer of an NFA firearm. So you cannot be required to conduct a NICS check on the transfer of a NFA firearm to an officer of a trust or corporation even though they also did not submit fingerprints to the ATF NFA branch either. ATF is well aware of this situation. When the Brady Act was passed in 1993, it appears that the issue of trusts and corporate NFA transfers was not considered. An FBI representative at its booth confirmed for me the fact that a NICS check in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm would not violate its regulations. Therefore you can conduct a NICS check on an officer of a corporation or a trust, but the GCA does not require it. Hope this answers your question. Wally Nelson" I thought this was interesting and MAYBE a lead to what will be required in the future. A New check box on the NICS e check site for NFA checks.......... This was the same verbal answer my examiner gave me when he saw I was already doing so. Basically it was, it's not required but THANK YOU for doing it anyway. |
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Posted: 2/5/2012 6:44:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How about lets not ask fucking questions like this before shit gets real from the ATF? Stupid ass questions like the OP's are how we lost a whole slew of rights due to ATF "rulings". got a pretty severe case of butthurt don't ya? What rights exactly were lost due to somebody asking a question? What specific cases do you have that show that asking a question on a public forum are detrimental to our hobby? you need to calm down and not post if your just going to come in here and make an ass of yourself. Someone asked a question & now we cant buy extra parts for our registered suppressors. Someone asked a question & now we cant have any replacement NFA receivers. Even if the original manufacturer puts your old SN on the new one.. |
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