Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Site Notices
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2003
  • USA OH, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2003
  • USA OH, USA
  • Posts: 1834
  • Feedback: 100% (17)
  • Status: Offline
Posted: 12/7/2009 3:54:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 3:54:47 AM EST by Lancelot]
I was at our local Gunshow last weekend and one of the vendors had a small portable DVD player showing a video of a guy with an AR15 with a trigger guard mounted device that turned a stock semi-auto AR into a "Legal" fully auto rifle. It apparently acts like a bumpfire assist type addition. They claim it's legality due to the fact the internals of the rifle weren't altered, and can be fully restored to standard fire in seconds. Once this device was mounted to the trigger guard the video showed the AR empty a 30 round mag FAST in a full auto burst. Has anyone here seen this "Tactical Trigger" or have any experience with one? Is it really legal since they don't alter the internal sear or stock trigger assembly and externally mounted. There must be some level of legality or how else would they be able to advertise and sell them as such?
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'!
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2008
  • USA TX, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2008
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 1302
  • Feedback: 100% (153)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 12:10:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2009 8:08:49 AM EST by The_Beer_Slayer]
please don't post this....tbs
Member
Avatar
Gold
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2007
  • USA TX, USA
Gold
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2007
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 6130
  • Feedback: 100% (123)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 12:16:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/4/2009 12:17:17 PM EST by jcrowl]
Originally Posted By GearHead_1:
I believe what you are describing is similar to a Hell Fire device. My understanding is that these are legal because in short there is one round fired for each pull of the trigger even though it isn't a typical pull. I've seen these in action and they are complete junk. I know that there is a mystique about having a full auto rifle but I think you'll find a number of owners tell you that it isn't what it is cracked up to be. I've talked with many that fall into this category. That said, do it right or don't bother.


This. I owned a legal M16A1 for 24 years and I think I had it out to shoot it maybe 10-15 times max in all that time/
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2008
  • USA OK, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2008
  • USA OK, USA
  • Posts: 380
  • Feedback: 100% (24)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/5/2009 1:05:05 PM EST
i SEEM to remember a article about the BATF ruling illegal any "devices" to promote rapid fire. including rubber bands,shoelaces etc. ANY foreign object was deemed a "device". i'm waiting for them to amputate a finger or two to discourage bump firing. trying to get a ruling is fruitless,and immaterial, as they just change their minds at will.if you choose to do it, you need to be aware of the possible ill effects. they have to outweigh the benefits.
having said all that, i would love to rock and roll once, just to check it off the to do list.
the gene pool could use some chlorine
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA TX, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 121
  • Feedback: 100% (7)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/5/2009 1:22:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/5/2009 1:26:04 PM EST by easttexas]
There is a tread called "Hellfire Trigger(s)" I think from about a month or two ago that addresses this. The BATF has a new ruling (2006-2) on their website stating any device made exclusively to fire more than one round is now a machine gun part. Some have said its only for the Akins device, look how the Akins functions and the Hellfire, Tac Trigger, or whatever name their using.

Its in the Armory>General Discussion from 10-7-09
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 6981
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/7/2009 12:17:07 AM EST
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Member
Avatar
Gold
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2007
  • USA TX, USA
Gold
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2007
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 6128
  • Feedback: 100% (123)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 10:23:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/4/2009 10:25:40 AM EST by jcrowl]
Yes they are legal and these devices have been around in one form or another for years. They usually don't last last long...pretty much junk.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=40297
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Feb 2001
  • USA AZ, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Feb 2001
  • USA AZ, USA
  • Posts: 27765
  • Feedback: 100% (15)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 10:27:32 AM EST
With the price and availability of ammo, anyone using something like this should have his stupid face punched repeatedly!
We need to get over the romance of carrying a 1911 pistol, and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern handgun.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2006
  • USA IA, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Aug 2006
  • USA IA, USA
  • Posts: 3699
  • Feedback: 100% (104)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 10:36:20 AM EST
I would encourage you to not get involved with it. If someone hears your burst of fire and calls the cops it is nothing but bad news, even though you technically have not broken any laws. if you want to bump fire just learn to do it on your belt loop so at least you can show the cop you are just a goof off
I want to buy WW-2 items, especially German. PM or e-mail me.

I quit going to GD. I discovered it is like the special Olympics, you have to be a retard to participate.
NAM
DD214 Holder
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2002
  • USA WI, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jul 2002
  • USA WI, USA
  • Posts: 14846
  • Feedback: 100% (42)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 11:27:22 AM EST
Remember, the internal fire components were factory in the akins Accelerator. It was still deemed a machinegun.

Not saying this device is....but it's just not worth it IMHO.
Isaiah 16:11 "my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Basic
  • Member
  • Apr 2005
  • USA UT, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Apr 2005
  • USA UT, USA
  • Posts: 849
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/4/2009 11:41:23 AM EST
I believe what you are describing is similar to a Hell Fire device. My understanding is that these are legal because in short there is one round fired for each pull of the trigger even though it isn't a typical pull. I've seen these in action and they are complete junk. I know that there is a mystique about having a full auto rifle but I think you'll find a number of owners tell you that it isn't what it is cracked up to be. I've talked with many that fall into this category. That said, do it right or don't bother.
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 5353
  • Feedback: 100% (120)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/7/2009 4:54:24 AM EST
So long as my $20 10/22 gatling gun handcrank is legal, I'll be alright
Basic
  • Member
  • Dec 2008
  • USA TX, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Dec 2008
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 194
  • Feedback: 100% (4)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/7/2009 7:24:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 7:25:13 AM EST by SemperFi89]
is a full auto bcg needed to bumpfire without harming your AR?
Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2004
  • USA OH, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2004
  • USA OH, USA
  • Posts: 6010
  • Feedback: 100% (2)
  • Status: Online
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/7/2009 8:31:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By SemperFi89:
is a full auto bcg needed to bumpfire without harming your AR?


No

Plain old AR15 and decent not wolf ammo.

Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2008
  • USA LA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2008
  • USA LA, USA
  • Posts: 623
  • Feedback: 100% (1)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/8/2009 6:29:02 AM EST
You can bumpfire FROM THE SHOULDER without any of these dumb gadgets. Review some tapes on youtube if you like and you'll figure it out. Rubberband makes it easier for videos, but I look at being able to bumpfire from teh shoulder as a type of SHTF last resort type manuever. Good to know in a pinch maybe...
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2008
  • USA CT, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2008
  • USA CT, USA
  • Posts: 457
  • Feedback: 100% (42)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/8/2009 8:01:20 AM EST
just learn to shoot good and you won't need to bump fire, that or buy an AK, those are extremely easy to bump fire and the 5.45 ammo is still pretty cheap.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA TX, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA TX, USA
  • Posts: 125
  • Feedback: 100% (7)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/12/2009 10:08:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 5455
  • Feedback: 100% (120)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/12/2009 3:28:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By easttexas:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?


Maybe so Mr. Akins can't remarket his Accelerator as the "OMGWTFBBQ super fast shooter stock" and circumvent the name requirements of the ban, but the ATF can say anything that works like his patent/design is illegal. Just speculation on how I read it.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 7059
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/12/2009 6:31:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By easttexas:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?


So what is the problem? Rate of fire is determined by the cycle time of the action. The firearm is still a semi-auto regardless of whether it fires 10 rounds per second or 10 zillion rounds per second - as long as the "trigger" fuctions (moves) to cause each shot. The original Gatling gun is a good example.

I am interested to see how the Akins suit turns out. I think some of the ATF's previous rulings are going to come back to bite them. Namely what IS the "trigger". The biggest wrinkle with the AA is that the finger remains stationary against the "stock" which the ATF eludes to as miraculously becoming the trigger for subsequent shots.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Basic
  • Member
  • Oct 2008
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Oct 2008
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 288
  • Feedback: 100% (1)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/13/2009 5:36:54 PM EST
To the OP

I owned a "Hellstorm 2000" years ago. It didn't work for shit. But that is because I didn't understand how to bumpfire.

This widget is like snake oil. It does NOTHING. They sell you the widget and then half assedly try to teach you to bumpfire. You do not need any device to bumpfire.

Notice next time you go to the fun show that on said video.....the people shooting those guns are solidly holding the pistol grip. What does that matter? Well if you read their instructions....they want you to bumpfire by ONLY putting your trigger finger through the trigger guard and pulling the weapon forward with the other hand.

What I'm saying is that the video is contains REAL machineguns. None of the taped events are actually bumpfiring. False advertising.
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2008
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 5477
  • Feedback: 100% (120)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/14/2009 6:22:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By Elliot_308:
To the OP

I owned a "Hellstorm 2000" years ago. It didn't work for shit. But that is because I didn't understand how to bumpfire.

This widget is like snake oil. It does NOTHING. They sell you the widget and then half assedly try to teach you to bumpfire. You do not need any device to bumpfire.

Notice next time you go to the fun show that on said video.....the people shooting those guns are solidly holding the pistol grip. What does that matter? Well if you read their instructions....they want you to bumpfire by ONLY putting your trigger finger through the trigger guard and pulling the weapon forward with the other hand.

What I'm saying is that the video is contains REAL machineguns. None of the taped events are actually bumpfiring. False advertising.


Ooooh... that's sneaky.
Top