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JETWC
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Posted: 12/7/2009 8:54:47 AM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 8:54:47 AM by Lancelot]
I was at our local Gunshow last weekend and one of the vendors had a small portable DVD player showing a video of a guy with an AR15 with a trigger guard mounted device that turned a stock semi-auto AR into a "Legal" fully auto rifle. It apparently acts like a bumpfire assist type addition. They claim it's legality due to the fact the internals of the rifle weren't altered, and can be fully restored to standard fire in seconds. Once this device was mounted to the trigger guard the video showed the AR empty a 30 round mag FAST in a full auto burst. Has anyone here seen this "Tactical Trigger" or have any experience with one? Is it really legal since they don't alter the internal sear or stock trigger assembly and externally mounted. There must be some level of legality or how else would they be able to advertise and sell them as such?
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'!
balloo93
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Posted: 12/4/2009 5:10:44 PM
[Last Edit: 12/8/2009 1:08:49 PM by The_Beer_Slayer]
please don't post this....tbs
jcrowl
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Posted: 12/4/2009 5:16:49 PM
[Last Edit: 12/4/2009 5:17:17 PM by jcrowl]
Originally Posted By GearHead_1:
I believe what you are describing is similar to a Hell Fire device. My understanding is that these are legal because in short there is one round fired for each pull of the trigger even though it isn't a typical pull. I've seen these in action and they are complete junk. I know that there is a mystique about having a full auto rifle but I think you'll find a number of owners tell you that it isn't what it is cracked up to be. I've talked with many that fall into this category. That said, do it right or don't bother.


This. I owned a legal M16A1 for 24 years and I think I had it out to shoot it maybe 10-15 times max in all that time/
hotdog250j
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Posted: 12/5/2009 6:05:05 PM
i SEEM to remember a article about the BATF ruling illegal any "devices" to promote rapid fire. including rubber bands,shoelaces etc. ANY foreign object was deemed a "device". i'm waiting for them to amputate a finger or two to discourage bump firing. trying to get a ruling is fruitless,and immaterial, as they just change their minds at will.if you choose to do it, you need to be aware of the possible ill effects. they have to outweigh the benefits.
having said all that, i would love to rock and roll once, just to check it off the to do list.
the gene pool could use some chlorine
easttexas
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Posted: 12/5/2009 6:22:53 PM
[Last Edit: 12/5/2009 6:26:04 PM by easttexas]
There is a tread called "Hellfire Trigger(s)" I think from about a month or two ago that addresses this. The BATF has a new ruling (2006-2) on their website stating any device made exclusively to fire more than one round is now a machine gun part. Some have said its only for the Akins device, look how the Akins functions and the Hellfire, Tac Trigger, or whatever name their using.

Its in the Armory>General Discussion from 10-7-09
shrikefan
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Posted: 12/7/2009 5:17:07 AM
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.
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jcrowl
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Posted: 12/4/2009 3:23:39 PM
[Last Edit: 12/4/2009 3:25:40 PM by jcrowl]
Yes they are legal and these devices have been around in one form or another for years. They usually don't last last long...pretty much junk.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=40297
markm
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Posted: 12/4/2009 3:27:32 PM
With the price and availability of ammo, anyone using something like this should have his stupid face punched repeatedly!
We need to get over the romance of carrying a 1911 pistol, and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern handgun.
cckw
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Posted: 12/4/2009 3:36:20 PM
I would encourage you to not get involved with it. If someone hears your burst of fire and calls the cops it is nothing but bad news, even though you technically have not broken any laws. if you want to bump fire just learn to do it on your belt loop so at least you can show the cop you are just a goof off
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NAM
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Posted: 12/4/2009 4:27:22 PM
Remember, the internal fire components were factory in the akins Accelerator. It was still deemed a machinegun.

Not saying this device is....but it's just not worth it IMHO.
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GearHead_1
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Posted: 12/4/2009 4:41:23 PM
I believe what you are describing is similar to a Hell Fire device. My understanding is that these are legal because in short there is one round fired for each pull of the trigger even though it isn't a typical pull. I've seen these in action and they are complete junk. I know that there is a mystique about having a full auto rifle but I think you'll find a number of owners tell you that it isn't what it is cracked up to be. I've talked with many that fall into this category. That said, do it right or don't bother.
cosmos556
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Posted: 12/7/2009 9:54:24 AM
So long as my $20 10/22 gatling gun handcrank is legal, I'll be alright
SemperFi89
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Posted: 12/7/2009 12:24:39 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 12:25:13 PM by SemperFi89]
is a full auto bcg needed to bumpfire without harming your AR?
DanishM1Garand
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Posted: 12/7/2009 1:31:04 PM
Originally Posted By SemperFi89:
is a full auto bcg needed to bumpfire without harming your AR?


No

Plain old AR15 and decent not wolf ammo.

yarbsea
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Posted: 12/8/2009 11:29:02 AM
You can bumpfire FROM THE SHOULDER without any of these dumb gadgets. Review some tapes on youtube if you like and you'll figure it out. Rubberband makes it easier for videos, but I look at being able to bumpfire from teh shoulder as a type of SHTF last resort type manuever. Good to know in a pinch maybe...
sardo_67
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Posted: 12/8/2009 1:01:20 PM
just learn to shoot good and you won't need to bump fire, that or buy an AK, those are extremely easy to bump fire and the 5.45 ammo is still pretty cheap.
easttexas
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Posted: 12/12/2009 3:08:44 PM
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?
cosmos556
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Posted: 12/12/2009 8:28:29 PM
Originally Posted By easttexas:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?


Maybe so Mr. Akins can't remarket his Accelerator as the "OMGWTFBBQ super fast shooter stock" and circumvent the name requirements of the ban, but the ATF can say anything that works like his patent/design is illegal. Just speculation on how I read it.
shrikefan
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Posted: 12/12/2009 11:31:15 PM
Originally Posted By easttexas:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
As posted in the Armory discussion.

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The ATF specifically lists the Akins device.

Here is the text.

If everything (finger, trigger, "accelerating" device, etc.) has movement between shots then there is no way it meets the satutory MG definition.


I disagree the ruling clearly states "devices that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm." After the ruling text it lists the Akins Device (which is basically just a stock made for bump firing) as the primarily reason. If it was just for the Akins why doesn't it list "Akins" at the top in the ruling instead of "devices"?


So what is the problem? Rate of fire is determined by the cycle time of the action. The firearm is still a semi-auto regardless of whether it fires 10 rounds per second or 10 zillion rounds per second - as long as the "trigger" fuctions (moves) to cause each shot. The original Gatling gun is a good example.

I am interested to see how the Akins suit turns out. I think some of the ATF's previous rulings are going to come back to bite them. Namely what IS the "trigger". The biggest wrinkle with the AA is that the finger remains stationary against the "stock" which the ATF eludes to as miraculously becoming the trigger for subsequent shots.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Elliot_308
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Posted: 12/13/2009 10:36:54 PM
To the OP

I owned a "Hellstorm 2000" years ago. It didn't work for shit. But that is because I didn't understand how to bumpfire.

This widget is like snake oil. It does NOTHING. They sell you the widget and then half assedly try to teach you to bumpfire. You do not need any device to bumpfire.

Notice next time you go to the fun show that on said video.....the people shooting those guns are solidly holding the pistol grip. What does that matter? Well if you read their instructions....they want you to bumpfire by ONLY putting your trigger finger through the trigger guard and pulling the weapon forward with the other hand.

What I'm saying is that the video is contains REAL machineguns. None of the taped events are actually bumpfiring. False advertising.
cosmos556
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Posted: 12/14/2009 11:22:12 AM
Originally Posted By Elliot_308:
To the OP

I owned a "Hellstorm 2000" years ago. It didn't work for shit. But that is because I didn't understand how to bumpfire.

This widget is like snake oil. It does NOTHING. They sell you the widget and then half assedly try to teach you to bumpfire. You do not need any device to bumpfire.

Notice next time you go to the fun show that on said video.....the people shooting those guns are solidly holding the pistol grip. What does that matter? Well if you read their instructions....they want you to bumpfire by ONLY putting your trigger finger through the trigger guard and pulling the weapon forward with the other hand.

What I'm saying is that the video is contains REAL machineguns. None of the taped events are actually bumpfiring. False advertising.


Ooooh... that's sneaky.