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Posted: 6/2/2017 7:30:24 AM EDT
[#1]
This day has been coming.
There is not an infinite supply of collectable arms, but there is, seemingly, an infinite supply of people wanting them. Supply and demand at work. It is the ultimate fate of any kind of collecting. The same thing is happening in the collector automobile genre, though this is more driven by fashion, as the supply of very old cars is still strong as current collectors only want the cars they could not afford when they were in high school. Pre world war two cars are dropping in value as the number of buyers shrinks. Even the iconic '57 Chevy has peaked, it's values are now flat and falling. |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:00:26 AM EDT
[#2]
Agree it's supply and demand coupled with the lack of anything new coming in in the past two or three years as well.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:09:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Aren't all the surplus arms that were left overseas and banned by 0bama going to be repatriated and come to our market?
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:10:39 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This day has been coming. There is not an infinite supply of collectable arms, but there is, seemingly, an infinite supply of people wanting them. Supply and demand at work. It is the ultimate fate of any kind of collecting. The same thing is happening in the collector automobile genre, though this is more driven by fashion, as the supply of very old cars is still strong as current collectors only want the cars they could not afford when they were in high school. Pre world war two cars are dropping in value as the number of buyers shrinks. Even the iconic '57 Chevy has peaked, it's values are now flat and falling. 
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:16:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aren't all the surplus arms that were left overseas and banned by 0bama going to be repatriated and come to our market? Hoping we see more from Asia. Isnt there a bunch of Garands coming from southeast asia somewhere? And maybe those Korean Garands will finally come. |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:21:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Empires pricing was always on the higher end of things and I agree he was always the last resort if the need struck me. Over the last 10 years I have backed away from the market and the only time I buy is if by chance I come across a decent deal at a small shop or show.
I got most of what I wanted or at least had what I thought I wanted over the last 30 years. |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:31:23 AM EDT
[#7]
I will sell you one of my M1's if you stop complaining.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 2:27:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Still deals out there, just depends on how oddball you like.
I think Italian guns have a ton of interesting variations and are really under appreciated, so they are often pretty cheap. French rifles aren't as easy to find but remain generally inexpensive too. There are a ton of Steyr M95 variants that are very reasonable. Japanese rifles are climbing fast making deals on original/intact and oddball guns a solid investment. For pistols I've really gotten into pre WWII .32s both military and commercial, there is a huge variety and most priced well too. If you don't like any of those I guess you're in a pickle but then I think it's more fun to get into some of the less mainstream milsurp things out there. |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 3:22:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Supply and demand. Most nations dumped bolt actions for FA immediately after WWII. Importable guns have mostly been imported. Notable exception being guns in Russia either banned from import or banned from export because they are considered historical relics of the state.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 3:52:50 PM EDT
[#10]
There are plenty of guns over 50 years old. Don't just be looking to buy milsurps.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 4:26:32 PM EDT
[#11]
I remember buying quite a few Mauser 1914 pistols about 3 years ago between $150-$250
Those are starting to climb a bit |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 6:27:52 PM EDT
[#12]
I would be interested to find out just how much stock is still left in warehouses in Russia/former combloc countries. There have been discussions about this before, my thinking is there is not as much left as people think. I seem to remember a few years ago hearing about the UN paying countries to destroy their old milsurp equipment rather than sell it off.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 9:43:37 PM EDT
[#13]
The supply has always be finite . The best are usually already in collections . Buy early and often has always been the case
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Posted: 6/3/2017 10:03:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would be interested to find out just how much stock is still left in warehouses in Russia/former combloc countries. There have been discussions about this before, my thinking is there is not as much left as people think. I seem to remember a few years ago hearing about the UN paying countries to destroy their old milsurp equipment rather than sell it off. They supposedly have tons of G-43's in crates, but they want waaaayyyy too much for them. |
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Posted: 6/3/2017 11:04:37 AM EDT
[#15]
You have the internet to thank for that.
The Russians are not stupid, and have embraced capitalism wholeheartedly. All they have to do is spool up American firearms auctions sites and see what rare pieces like G43s go for, and hence have no reason to sell them at wholesale prices, even if they could be imported. |
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Posted: 6/3/2017 11:36:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Isnt there a bunch of Garands coming from southeast asia somewhere? |
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Posted: 6/3/2017 12:09:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The CMP may be getting ~86,000 Garands from the Phillipines. I would love a G43. |
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Posted: 6/3/2017 9:04:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Part of the problem is the Russians, Ukrainians, etc, have gotten greedy, and a lot of times now, they just want too much...by the time the importer would buy them, pay all the fees, etc, no one here would pay the price for them... They supposedly have tons of G-43's in crates, but they want waaaayyyy too much for them. They could ask a LOT without it being too much. |
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Posted: 6/4/2017 11:27:45 PM EDT
[#19]
I picked the WRONG time to get into c&r guns...
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Posted: 6/5/2017 9:44:03 AM EDT
[#20]
There are still plenty of deals to be had, if you're willing to be patient. The days of $50 Mosins on demand in Shotgun (sorry, Firearms) News are long gone -- you can't decide today "I want a good buy on a Mauser" and have one show up at your FFL on Friday for the princely sum of $400. However, if you can handle a little bit of searching and waiting, good buys pop up online (Gunbroker, forums, etc.) or even at *gasp!* gun shows. Just takes some looking.
I spent about six months hunting down a 16ga Model 12 with an open choke because I wasn't willing to plunk down the cash to have one immediately. I found one on Gunbroker a couple weeks ago for $350. The deals are out there, just not in volume anymore. |
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Posted: 6/5/2017 6:21:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Why are people gushing over the Garands that may or may not come from Korea or the Philippines?
Does no one remember the condition of them when they came up last time? Absolutely worn out and put away wet.
The last excellent batch came from Italy/Greece. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 9:07:15 AM EDT
[#22]
You have to remember, just as the weapons currently in use move forward in time, the old weapons coming out of surplus do too. There is a finite supply.
20 years ago there were still a lot of bolt guns and semi-autos coming out of surplus. Now, the "surplus" is old M16s, AKs, FALs, not importable stuff. I'm surprised we aren't seeing less surplus guns and more parts kits. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 9:00:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still deals out there, just depends on how oddball you like. I think Italian guns have a ton of interesting variations and are really under appreciated, so they are often pretty cheap. French rifles aren't as easy to find but remain generally inexpensive too. There are a ton of Steyr M95 variants that are very reasonable. Japanese rifles are climbing fast making deals on original/intact and oddball guns a solid investment. For pistols I've really gotten into pre WWII .32s both military and commercial, there is a huge variety and most priced well too. If you don't like any of those I guess you're in a pickle but then I think it's more fun to get into some of the less mainstream milsurp things out there. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 7:42:29 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is not an infinite supply of collectable arms, but there is, seemingly, an infinite supply of people wanting them. The above example is doubly true when you start talking about American Garand's and 1903's. That is why supply seems to have dried up. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:06:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not the problem... The problem is that many people will literally have hundreds of the same rifle. There are people out there that have a BSA made Lee Enfield No4 for every year they were made, and in every minute variation in duplicate. They'll have so many that most will never see the light of day. The above example is doubly true when you start talking about American Garand's and 1903's. That is why supply seems to have dried up. Then I look at mine "gun wall" and I have 1 representative of bolt guns from the major powers, except for Great Britian and I'm working on that... :) |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 9:46:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Same here... I have an original Remington made 1903a3, and a faux-a4. I have a Yugo M48 because prices for K98's have gotten rediculous for the condition you find them in. And two Lee-Enfield No4's with one probably looking to be converted to a faux-(T). I'd still like to get my hands on an early M1903 and a Lee-Enfield No1 MkIII.
But I don't collect these to lock them away and never use them. My rifles see a lot of range time and I hunt with them. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 10:58:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why are people gushing over the Garands that may or may not come from Korea or the Philippines?
Does no one remember the condition of them when they came up last time? Absolutely worn out and put away wet.
The last excellent batch came from Italy/Greece. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 7:39:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because gun shops and gun show traders are salivating at the chance to flip $600 beaters for $1200+ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why are people gushing over the Garands that may or may not come from Korea or the Philippines?
Does no one remember the condition of them when they came up last time? Absolutely worn out and put away wet.
The last excellent batch came from Italy/Greece. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 8:37:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are still plenty of deals to be had, if you're willing to be patient. The days of $50 Mosins on demand in Shotgun (sorry, Firearms) News are long gone -- you can't decide today "I want a good buy on a Mauser" and have one show up at your FFL on Friday for the princely sum of $400. However, if you can handle a little bit of searching and waiting, good buys pop up online (Gunbroker, forums, etc.) or even at *gasp!* gun shows. Just takes some looking. I spent about six months hunting down a 16ga Model 12 with an open choke because I wasn't willing to plunk down the cash to have one immediately. I found one on Gunbroker a couple weeks ago for $350. The deals are out there, just not in volume anymore. In the past 9 months I've picked up a Winchester 1897 with a 20" cut down from longer barrel (stamped "FULL" choke is a clue) fire $269 and a 1948 vintage Win. Model 70 in .30 GOVT 06 with a Weaver K4 in Weaver tip off rings and bases for a rifke l haven't shot in 15 or more years plus $300 cash. Surplus military arms are scarcer now but anything over 50 yrs old is good to go. |
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Posted: 6/12/2017 1:03:46 AM EDT
[#30]
When the Korean import Garands and Carbines were available in the early 90s, $369 for a Garand was out of my budget (though I did eventually get one and it was a great shooter). But I did swing a Carbine for $169.99. It's an Underwood, reparked but pretty nice overall. The "Blue Sky" import stamp looks like it was hit with a 20-lb sledge. But I still have it and still enjoy it.
Rob |
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Posted: 6/12/2017 3:26:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that same thing. That's the true ( or should I say OCD ) collector. You see pictures of their safes or "gun rooms" and there are 20/30/40 Arisakas , Mausers or MN varieties. Then I look at mine "gun wall" and I have 1 representative of bolt guns from the major powers, except for Great Britian and I'm working on that... :) We just had a thread on the CZ-52....back before the wall came down, in the early 80's, these things were literally hens teeth, and one could cost a collector the same a shitty Yugo back then. Then the wall fell, and you could buy them for $99. The trap people fell into, was like when Enfields were $85 and there were 30 on a dealers table to choose from (again, back when I started to buy them)...a lot of big collections got started back then, but a lot of people figured, meh, they are cheap and plentiful, I can get one anytime I like. Then they weren't. There are still bargains to be had, but you have to hunt for them...but I think the days of truly cheap, plentiful milsurps are gone...unless a new big stash of something is found somewhere.... |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 2:24:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not the problem... The problem is that many people will literally have hundreds of the same rifle. There are people out there that have a BSA made Lee Enfield No4 for every year they were made, and in every minute variation in duplicate. They'll have so many that most will never see the light of day. The above example is doubly true when you start talking about American Garand's and 1903's. That is why supply seems to have dried up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is not an infinite supply of collectable arms, but there is, seemingly, an infinite supply of people wanting them. The above example is doubly true when you start talking about American Garand's and 1903's. That is why supply seems to have dried up. 
I just picked up an Italian Vetterli in 6.5 for $100 from one. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 3:11:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Estate sales in 20 years will be glorious.
I just picked up an Italian Vetterli in 6.5 for $100 from one. I plan on selling most of mine in the next ten years or so as I rarely shoot them anymore. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 3:19:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree as people my age or older start to pass in the coming years there will be a dump of surplus on the market if you are in the right place for it. I plan on selling most of mine in the next ten years or so as I rarely shoot them anymore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Estate sales in 20 years will be glorious.
I just picked up an Italian Vetterli in 6.5 for $100 from one. I plan on selling most of mine in the next ten years or so as I rarely shoot them anymore. 
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:29:05 AM EDT
[#35]
I wouldn't count on prices dropping because of boomers dying and estates being sold off in mass. Napoleon era, civil war era, WWI era and so on are all climbing in value and those initial collectors are long gone. US population is increasing at the rate of 1-2 million a year, making sure there is ever increasing pool of buyers even if their numbers as % of total population is going down...
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Posted: 6/20/2017 3:42:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't count on prices dropping because of boomers dying and estates being sold off in mass. Napoleon era, civil war era, WWI era and so on are all climbing in value and those initial collectors are long gone. US population is increasing at the rate of 1-2 million a year, making sure there is ever increasing pool of buyers even if their numbers as % of total population is going down... |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:09:10 PM EDT
[#37]
You know a C&R is good for more than WWII surplus, right?
In my opinion, C&R gets better every day. < edit > An 870 should be on my porch later this week. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:48:42 AM EDT
[#38]
I miss the early 2000's when Russian capture K98's and P-38's were everywhere. That would be something if they imported the G43's though.
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:52:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know a C&R is good for more than WWII surplus, right? In my opinion, C&R gets better every day. < edit > An 870 should be on my porch later this week. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:53:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not the problem... The problem is that many people will literally have hundreds of the same rifle. There are people out there that have a BSA made Lee Enfield No4 for every year they were made, and in every minute variation in duplicate. They'll have so many that most will never see the light of day. The above example is doubly true when you start talking about American Garand's and 1903's. That is why supply seems to have dried up. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:53:45 AM EDT
[#41]
You have to scratch and claw for decent C&R mil-surp deals these days.....But the fun is in the hunt.
That said there are a ton of C&R eligible guns out there for those that choose to take advantage of it. Sadly this forum has gotten like so many others where C&R eligible guns are hardly commented on when they are posted. Sort of like the 10-22/.22 sub-forum. C&Rs are not just mil-surp. Heck there are even C&R 10-22s now. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 8:38:53 AM EDT
[#42]
there's always Simpson's out of Galesburg............
Wife has relatives in Galesburg I stop in there maybe once or twice a year. I seldom buy there, if I do it's been an occasional bayonet or an out of date copy of Fjestad's Blue Book. Nice to stop and look around though. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 9:41:30 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to scratch and claw for decent C&R mil-surp deals these days.....But the fun is in the hunt.
That said there are a ton of C&R eligible guns out there for those that choose to take advantage of it. Sadly this forum has gotten like so many others where C&R eligible guns are hardly commented on when they are posted. Sort of like the 10-22/.22 sub-forum. C&Rs are not just mil-surp. Heck there are even C&R 10-22s now. Early ARs are starting to hit that age as well. In another 20 years, all machine guns will be C&Rs so there will be no more need to transfer through a dealer in your state. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 1:36:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Early ARs are starting to hit that age as well. In another 20 years, all machine guns will be C&Rs so there will be no more need to transfer through a dealer in your state. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 5:23:27 PM EDT
[#45]
There are certainly Thompsons, and other full autos out there that are far older than 50 years and they all require the Tax stamp.
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Posted: 6/29/2017 5:27:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are certainly Thompsons, and other full autos out there that are far older than 50 years and they all require the Tax stamp. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 6:15:56 PM EDT
[#47]
$10K would be bargain basement pricing I would think.
Full auto is a different world. One that I choose not to enter. The cost of feeding one is far too high. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 10:31:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much you think they'll go for, 10k ? |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 10:53:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. For the rest of this year anything made in 1966 and earlier is now C&R eligible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You know a C&R is good for more than WWII surplus, right? In my opinion, C&R gets better every day. < edit > An 870 should be on my porch later this week. |
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Posted: 6/30/2017 7:06:06 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So where can I get a pre 1966 Browning Hi Power? Look at Walthers as an example. A C&R PP in .32 isn't cheap. |
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