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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:17:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I've been a C&R holder for 10 years or so. Got the renewal form in the mail last week. Not sure I'm going to. What is the motivation to keep it for you? The days of $50 Mosin's and $150 SKS's are LONG gone. No nice/cheap pistols either. I always thought as time went on we'd start seeing more modern caliber guns cheaply sold but I'm just not seeing it. No 9mm, 7.62x39 or 51, or .22lr guns in massive quantities or cheap. Same goes for the ammo. I bought cases of the 54r and Tokarov ammo for maybe $100 shipped per 1500rds...now the C&R gun ammo is no longer cheap and plentiful. Will there be something C&R'd in the next few years that'll make having the license WELL worth it? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:30:24 PM EDT
[#2]
The Brownell's discount is the only reason I am considering renewing mine.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:30:56 PM EDT
[#3]
If all you're interested in are $50 mosins, then no.
Then again, craploads of guns from the sixties are passing the 50-year threshold now, so interesting guns like AR-15 SP1s are increasingly C&R. Not to mention getting so-called "dealer discounts" from sellers like Brownells for your paltry renewal fee, which you'd no longer get if you let it lapse. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:38:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Just got my renewal form in the mail and I haven't decided if I'll do it. Maybe I'll join up with the CMP and order a Garand instead. I never had occasion to use my C&R the whole 3 years. Tempted by the $200 P-64's, but why bother when $350 gets you one of the new Canik offerings.
I suppose I am in more of a practicality phase rather than collecting at this point. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 2:49:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just got my renewal form in the mail and I haven't decided if I'll do it. Maybe I'll join up with the CMP and order a Garand instead. I never had occasion to use my C&R the whole 3 years. Tempted by the $200 P-64's, but why bother when $350 gets you one of the new Canik offerings. I suppose I am in more of a practicality phase rather than collecting at this point. I was only ever in for practicality. CZ-82, TT-33, CZ-52 in pistols....and then SKS and Nagants in rifle. Those all had either decent capacity, cheap, powerful,etc... I remember with the P-64 and other pistols were in the $100-$125 price range. When are old Sigs, AK's, Beretta 9mm, and 1911's (in massive cheap quantities) going to make it to the C&R market? -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 3:43:18 PM EDT
[#6]
non mil-surp guns that are C&R eligible due to age is why I still have mine.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 4:53:50 PM EDT
[#7]
The only reason I really kept mine was because I could not find a inexpensive FFL for shipping. Well, that and to use as a qualifier for the CMP shooting prerequisite. Once I moved my focus from Garands to something else and found a cheap FFL two blocks from my house to ship to I really did not need it. It was also much easier to auction off half my collection recently since I had let my license lapse. The heyday for cheap milsurps coming from importers has pretty much ended. They still get a few things in but not enough to make me want my C&R back.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:18:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only reason I really kept mine was because I could not find a inexpensive FFL for shipping. Well, that and to use as a qualifier for the CMP shooting prerequisite. Once I moved my focus from Garands to something else and found a cheap FFL two blocks from my house to ship to I really did not need it. It was also much easier to auction off half my collection recently since I had let my license lapse. The heyday for cheap milsurps coming from importers has pretty much ended. They still get a few things in but not enough to make me want my C&R back. A few have said the good times are over but here's what I don't understand... Every military in the world transitions weapons from time to time. As they do, shouldn't there theoretically be a constant supply of weapons being 1) Imported and 2) classified as C&R? I mean what was china, russia, france, etc....using before 66? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:34:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote History[b]Quoted:[/b
A few have said the good times are over but here's what I don't understand... Every military in the world transitions weapons from time to time. As they do, shouldn't there theoretically be a constant supply of weapons being 1) Imported and 2) classified as C&R? I mean what was china, russia, france, etc....using before 66? Thanks -Emt1581 Many of the firearms around the world after the 50s or so are select fire battle rifles and assault rifles (real ones). If I remember right, in those same stocks of RC Mauser 98s that came in about 10 yrs ago, there were stocks of MG34s, MG42s, MP/Stg-44s and others which meet the criteria for C&R, but are otherwise non-importable. Due to legislation (going back to at least '86) the bulk of military arms from the 60's are going to meet this criteria. Some nations had less stellar stuff that would be eligible/importable, but a lot of that has already been imported (FN-49s from several places, Hakims/Rasheeds from Egypt, etc.) |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:43:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many of the firearms around the world after the 50s or so are select fire battle rifles and assault rifles (real ones). If I remember right, in those same stocks of RC Mauser 98s that came in about 10 yrs ago, there were stocks of MG34s, MG42s, MP/Stg-44s and others which meet the criteria for C&R, but are otherwise non-importable. Due to legislation (going back to at least '86) the bulk of military arms from the 60's are going to meet this criteria. Some nations had less stellar stuff that would be eligible/importable, but a lot of that has already been imported (FN-49s from several places, Hakims/Rasheeds from Egypt, etc.) So we can add a piece of metal to a gun (i.e. safety on the TT-33) to make it importable but we cannot remove one (auto sear) to do the same?? -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 11:25:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So we can add a piece of metal to a gun (i.e. safety on the TT-33) to make it importable but we cannot remove one (auto sear) to do the same?? -Emt1581 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Many of the firearms around the world after the 50s or so are select fire battle rifles and assault rifles (real ones). If I remember right, in those same stocks of RC Mauser 98s that came in about 10 yrs ago, there were stocks of MG34s, MG42s, MP/Stg-44s and others which meet the criteria for C&R, but are otherwise non-importable. Due to legislation (going back to at least '86) the bulk of military arms from the 60's are going to meet this criteria. Some nations had less stellar stuff that would be eligible/importable, but a lot of that has already been imported (FN-49s from several places, Hakims/Rasheeds from Egypt, etc.) So we can add a piece of metal to a gun (i.e. safety on the TT-33) to make it importable but we cannot remove one (auto sear) to do the same?? -Emt1581 Once an MG, always an MG. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 11:36:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Once an MG, always an MG. According to what law? Similar is true of shotguns with barrels under 18"....if they ever had a shoulder stock, they are always viewed as shoulder stocked weapons forever. But if sold with a pistol grip from the factory, they can legally be made into AOW's or, even more fascinating, the barrel can legally be cut shorter than 18" without being considered an SBS so long as the OAL is still at least 26" (this can be seen on the Shockwave Technologies grip website). ...by I digress. Just looking for the law as I know the lawmakers aren't big on logic (so I won't ask for that). Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 11:36:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Once an MG, always an MG. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
[ So we can add a piece of metal to a gun (i.e. safety on the TT-33) to make it importable but we cannot remove one (auto sear) to do the same?? -Emt1581 Once an MG, always an MG. Unfortunately this is the answer from the Federal government. With some models it is possible to run into other NFA concerns like barrel length, open bolt, etc. Heck, I had a Romanian PSL that was declared to be a "semi-automatic machine gun" because it had the 3rd pin hole drilled, filled with a support, then welded over. Had to turn that one back in to Century Arms and get another. Don't get me wrong; If I could be ordering/sitting on a pile of AKs, Ppsh 41s, MP 38s or 40s, etc, I'd have my C&R forever. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 11:53:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to what law? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Once an MG, always an MG. According to what law? According to 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 12:07:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryAccording to what law? Similar is true of shotguns with barrels under 18"....if they ever had a shoulder stock, they are always viewed as shoulder stocked weapons forever. But if sold with a pistol grip from the factory, they can legally be made into AOW's or, even more fascinating, the barrel can legally be cut shorter than 18" without being considered an SBS so long as the OAL is still at least 26" (this can be seen on the Shockwave Technologies grip website). ...by I digress. Just looking for the law as I know the lawmakers aren't big on logic (so I won't ask for that). Thanks -Emt1581 Unfortunately it is never this clear. In reference to the example you cited, a shotgun is always a shotgun. If if left the factory with a stock, it is a "long gun" based on Federal definitions. If barrel length is shortened to less than 18" or OAL is less than 26" is is now an SBS (which can be added to NFA registry and still possessed, as long as tax stamp and approval is done). If a 12 ga firearm left the factory with a pistol grip only (e.g. a Mossberg 500 Just In Case), it is sold as an "Other" firearm. It also means that "Other" firearms can be modified into AOWs and put into the NFA registry as such. Then it only carries a $5 tax stamp for the end user, and can be just about any size (Serbu Super Shorty comes to mind). However, one of the major sticking points for C&R language is "original configuration" or something similar. Meaning a Mauser 98 from anywhere in the world in its original military configuration is probably C&R in just about every case, but the instant someone takes said rifle and changes stocks, barrel or another permanent modification it is no longer "original" and is no longer subject to C&R status. I believe the Federal agencies kind of waffle on the C&R status of TT-33 type firearms. Some have been allowed to be imported/sold as C&R, even with the addition of the manual safety. I believe at other times other variants of the same model from different sources (e.g. Romanian vs Yugo vs Russian) were NOT allowed after that modification. A final note about "newer" designs like AKs, M16s, FALs, etc.; the Machine gun registry is closed, with no new ones being allowed to be added. Last I checked, most of these select fire platforms would require major modifications to even attempt to eliminate/restrict full auto capabilities. So it is kind of a "coming and going" situation. C&R is okay, as long as the original configuration is maintained. But that can't be in this case. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 12:07:42 AM EDT
[#16]
is absolutely worth it. Best deals were always in secondary market anyways
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Posted: 9/25/2016 12:15:39 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfortunately it is never this clear. In reference to the example you cited, a shotgun is always a shotgun. If if left the factory with a stock, it is a "long gun" based on Federal definitions. If barrel length is shortened to less than 18" or OAL is less than 26" is is now an SBS (which can be added to NFA registry and still possessed, as long as tax stamp and approval is done). If a 12 ga firearm left the factory with a pistol grip only (e.g. a Mossberg 500 Just In Case), it is sold as an "Other" firearm. It also means that "Other" firearms can be modified into AOWs and put into the NFA registry as such. Then it only carries a $5 tax stamp for the end user, and can be just about any size (Serbu Super Shorty comes to mind). However, one of the major sticking points for C&R language is "original configuration" or something similar. Meaning a Mauser 98 from anywhere in the world in its original military configuration is probably C&R in just about every case, but the instant someone takes said rifle and changes stocks, barrel or another permanent modification it is no longer "original" and is no longer subject to C&R status. I believe the Federal agencies kind of waffle on the C&R status of TT-33 type firearms. Some have been allowed to be imported/sold as C&R, even with the addition of the manual safety. I believe at other times other variants of the same model from different sources (e.g. Romanian vs Yugo vs Russian) were NOT allowed after that modification. A final note about "newer" designs like AKs, M16s, FALs, etc.; the Machine gun registry is closed, with no new ones being allowed to be added. Last I checked, most of these select fire platforms would require major modifications to even attempt to eliminate/restrict full auto capabilities. So it is kind of a "coming and going" situation. C&R is okay, as long as the original configuration is maintained. But that can't be in this case. Incorrect on the <18" barrel shotgun=SBS. Like I said, please check out the Shockwave Tech. site and I believe there's a letter from the ATF on the matter. Fooled the hell out of me when I saw it! Especially because I'd gone through the process for the $5 stamp....even though I like my AOW soooo much more than any 26" shotgun!! But I see what you're saying about the imports. ...but what about pistols? Those aren't full auto. Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 12:48:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Pistols are still imported to my knowledge. However, a lot of them have already been imported that are over 50 years old. I'm not an expert on martial sidearms by any stretch, but most military organizations use firearms to death. There are also some specific import sanctions/embargoes on certain countries (Russia, China, and others have some restrictions or other).
In more recent years I've seen some of the Tokarev types, Polish P-64s, CZ-82s, and others come in that have been C&R. That's about it if you think about the 50 year or "collector value" that aren't still in service. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 7:15:33 AM EDT
[#19]
I am finding my C&R less and less valuable. But, for only $10/yr. What the hell, I'll keep it.
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Posted: 9/27/2016 11:08:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Some other things to consider.
My state of md has some screwed up laws. But they have a collector status you can apply for and it makes you exempt from some of the laws. Buy having a c&r goes long way to proving you are a bonififed collector. Under the law papers on can only take a fire arm to and from a range session, hinting session or to gunsmith/ gun shop. You can not legally take your new gun to show your friends. But with a collector status you can go to both private or public showing. The stupid thing is I can not buy a c&r handgun from a resident of the state with out going trough the state police of an ffl, but I can have c&r pistols sent to me all day from out of state source. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 6:15:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Lets not forget the UN has a hard on for destroying small arms...
that dries up the already finite supply of CRs. Not to mention our State Dept wont allow a lot of stuff in country by not issuing import permits (Korean Garands, Carbines, M1911s) |
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Posted: 10/2/2016 9:04:51 AM EDT
[#22]
Welp, mailed in my renewal yesterday along with $30 to the ATF. Fingers crossed something good becomes available in the next 3 years...
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Posted: 10/2/2016 9:44:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Brownell's discount is the only reason I am considering renewing mine. You could easily recoup your license fee with one order. |
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Posted: 10/3/2016 8:28:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Once an MG, always an MG. According to what law? According to 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). This and some very liberal interpretations of this . Good luck trying to win this fight |
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Posted: 10/4/2016 12:51:45 PM EDT
[#25]
I just called for an update and found that my application was approved. I know that I am going to pay $$$ for the stuff I want but having the C&R makes it easier to get them for me.
With that said does anyone have a good source for a good bound book to use? |
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Posted: 10/4/2016 2:18:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With that said does anyone have a good source for a good bound book to use? an organized stack of loose pages with the required information is fine. |
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Posted: 10/4/2016 2:46:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
an organized stack of loose pages with the required information is fine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With that said does anyone have a good source for a good bound book to use? an organized stack of loose pages with the required information is fine. Ok. Cool. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 5:32:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Bumpity bump.
Now that Trump has won the election, would this be a good time to get back in the C&R game? I had my license for 6 years but let it expire in August. I'm asking mainly in reference to imports from South Korea. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 7:01:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bumpity bump. Now that Trump has won the election, would this be a good time to get back in the C&R game? I had my license for 6 years but let it expire in August. I'm asking mainly in reference to imports from South Korea. Anything is possible, but surplus has been drying up. There are a lot of silly import restrictions keeping much of what's left out there from lend-lease and foreign aid shipments from coming back. New cut off date in 1967, though so unless you are only into modern stuff, I think it's worth having. |
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Posted: 11/20/2016 5:34:51 AM EDT
[#30]
I let mine lapse years ago, and haven't minded since.
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Posted: 11/20/2016 9:03:28 AM EDT
[#31]
I am going to keep mine. Every so often I pick up a good deal on GB, and its nice to have it delivered to my door. Plus the renewal fee is about the same as an FFL transfer, if you dont have a C&R.
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Posted: 11/20/2016 11:48:54 AM EDT
[#32]
My personal opinion is that a C&R license isn't worth having. I had one many years ago, and never used it.
The reason I say this is that with collectible guns, condition is everything. That's why I buy guns at gun shows, where I can check them out before buying. The license really only helps with mail order. Otherwise, I can usually find a local FFL that will do a $10 transfer. The downside is that you have to maintain a "bound book" and potentially all your transactions are subject to government oversight. The one situation where a C&R license truly would be useful would be an interstate purchase of a C&R machine gun. Having the C&R license would save you a second Form 4 transfer, and a second months-long wait. But if you have such a transaction in mind, you can apply for the C&R license at that time, as needed. |
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Posted: 11/20/2016 2:22:08 PM EDT
[#33]
I kept mine. The discount at Brownell's and Graf's is worth the $30 in the end.
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Posted: 11/20/2016 3:54:32 PM EDT
[#34]
nvrmnd
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Posted: 11/21/2016 3:37:42 PM EDT
[#35]
I'll keep mine in case Trump lets in all those Russian SKS rifles and Allah knows what other C&R guns that are overseas
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Posted: 11/21/2016 11:18:31 PM EDT
[#36]
One reason I've been considering keeping it is the perk of being able to call the ATF if someone steals a gun from me. Instead of having to dick around with local or state cops....get the feds on the trail right away.
Thoughts? -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 11/26/2016 8:17:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now that Trump has won the election, would this be a good time to get back in the C&R game? I had my license for 6 years but let it expire in August. I'm asking mainly in reference to imports from South Korea. Yes, I think we'll see the South Korean M1 Carbine and M1 Garand come back home. Bryan Flannagan of AIM Surplus said the quality of those guns is all over the place; some of them are "time machine" quality, others are well used, that's the C&R game. There are a lot of spare parts too. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 10:30:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Tag for any further comments. I've never had a C&R before but have been considering it.
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Posted: 12/10/2016 11:42:42 AM EDT
[#39]
I let mine lapse.
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Posted: 12/17/2016 9:58:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am finding my C&R less and less valuable. But, for only $10/yr. What the hell, I'll keep it. This. |
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Posted: 12/17/2016 10:33:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Best deals are online....on secondary market.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/588261963 http://www.gunbroker.com/item/585190256 http://www.gunbroker.com/item/603650605 http://www.gunbroker.com/item/604332615 Just in those 4 you are looking at $100-$120 in added cost of 4473 transfer.... |
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Posted: 12/17/2016 10:49:03 PM EDT
[#42]
NVM.
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Posted: 12/20/2016 3:59:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Welp, mailed in my renewal yesterday along with $30 to the ATF. Fingers crossed something good becomes available in the next 3 years... This might make you feel better |
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Posted: 12/20/2016 4:08:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If all you're interested in are $50 mosins, then no. Then again, craploads of guns from the sixties are passing the 50-year threshold now, so interesting guns like AR-15 SP1s are increasingly C&R. Not to mention getting so-called "dealer discounts" from sellers like Brownells for your paltry renewal fee, which you'd no longer get if you let it lapse. I recall that Midway stopped offering the C&R discount. (or cut it way back - don't remember exactly) Brownells still has it? Who else? |
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Posted: 12/20/2016 4:13:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
an organized stack of loose pages with the required information is fine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With that said does anyone have a good source for a good bound book to use? an organized stack of loose pages with the required information is fine. I printed a stack of blank register pages on three-hole paper and put them in a report cover with the folding metal retention tabs. Worked well for years. |
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Posted: 12/21/2016 11:00:39 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I recall that Midway stopped offering the C&R discount. (or cut it way back - don't remember exactly) Brownells still has it? Who else? Yes, Midway completely dropped the C&R discount. |
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Posted: 12/23/2016 7:30:37 PM EDT
[#47]
I let it lapse.
No reason to keep it. I don't know of any guns coming up for C&R that I'd want anyway. I didn't even buy anything using it for the last 5 years or however long the license period is. -Emt1581 |
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Posted: 12/27/2016 9:47:07 AM EDT
[#48]
I think you have to take a look at your own situation and decide if its worth having a C&R. Even if you don't buy any firearms, you can always use the discount to buy ammo and other accessories, or buy ammo in bulk from distributors. The big question I would ask is "do you have the money to spend on C&R firearms, ammo and accessories?"
For me, I let mine go back in 2007. My C&R gun buying dropped dramatically after having two kids. I haven't had the need to get it back, because the last 8 years of Obama have been bad for my family and I. After 8 years of bad or no raises, two pay cuts, higher health insurance costs, and everything costing more, I don't have any discretionary income to buy much of anything anymore. |
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Posted: 1/5/2017 5:11:16 PM EDT
[#49]
I got mine back in Oct and have used the shit out of it. Approx 25 firearms and 95% of them from out of state.
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Posted: 1/10/2017 4:58:26 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got mine back in Oct and have used the shit out of it. Approx 25 firearms and 95% of them from out of state. You must have a good source or sources. Only available gun I can think of that I'd want to get with a C&R license is a Chinese SKS to accompany my Yugo and Ruskie. If fresh imports come in, then that's a different ballgame. The application has been opened in my browser for the last week or so. It demands action. Oh yeah, I need a Garand from the CMP before they're gone. Looks like that app is going to get filled out after all. |
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