I went to the CMP South Store for the first time today.  Even though I missed the glory days of wall to wall rifles in the racks and on carts it was still quite the enjoyable trip.  Before leaving I swore to myself that I would not buy a rifle, no matter what.....and I sort of stuck to that promise .  We arrived around 10PM, and there was a lone Winchester service grade on the rack, everything else was a M1D, M1C, Special grade, or a NM Type 2.  Of course there's also the usual assortment of drill M1's (all sporting new CMP stocks if anyone is wondering) and 1903A3s.  I looked through probably every rifle there just in case one spoke to me, but none really screamed out to me (well except an M1C with a grenade sight mount...that was cool) that I absolutely had to buy right then and there.  A little saddened, but not the least bit unhappy with being there, I grabbed my 14 $6 web slings, a leather holster for a USPc, a RIA 1918 dated cut down bayonet, 2 CMP stickers, a hat for my dad and proceed to check out.  While waiting for my order to get processed I decided to take one last stroll through the store both to savor the memory and to check just one last time in case I missed something....  That was a mistake...  Or maybe it was fate...


My first run though I kind of gave a clursory gance over the drill 1903A3's, mostly because they're drill rifles...and that's depressing.  Remembering that the Gibbs rifles were all re-activated drill rifles gave me a reason to kind of look them over a bit more to see if any might be able to be brought back from the dead.  Some were REALLY welded up, others were not so bad but would need to have part of the receiver re-profiled and the detent divot re-drilled (not un-manageable by any means).  I picked one up, and I noticed the weld on the magazine cutoff was already broken and it was almost entirely on the switch and not on the receiver.  The heat damage was isolated to a very small part of the receiver itself and any effect on the strength of the metal there will be inconsequential.  I was able to push it up and much to my surprise, remove the bolt.  Now with my interest peaked, my hear rate rising, and an odd sensation beginning to develop down in my nether regions (don't judge... Mil-Surps get me antsy in the pantsy ), I started to look a little closer at it.  The rifle was missing the rear sight assembly, the safety, the front sight blade, and the rear trigger guard screw.  Looking over the stock I could tell it had been shellacked or varnished over, a strong F.J.A. cartouche was visible, and the scant/C stock (thought it was a C, but now I'm thinking it's in a scant) it was in incredibly good shape.  No cracks, gouges, or broken bits, it's just a little dented/dinged up.  I brought the rifle over to the counter and asked to borrow a screw driver so I could take the stock off.  Matt and Kelly (I think that was her name) were more than happy to provide me with a screw driver, probably quizzical as to why I was wanting it to look over a drill rifle.  I held my breath when I removed the stock, hoping for the best but expecting the worst because it's a drill rifle after all.  As luck/fate would have it, the spot weld on the barrel/receiver joint was almost entirely on the barrel and didn't look like it got very good penetration!  The heat damage into the receiver is so minimal I don't think it goes much further than the weld.  




I may, or may not have, made a little bit of a fool of myself with getting giddily excited over this drill rifle but I knew that it had a very good chance to be able to live once more.  I went for my phone to call my dad for a second opinion.  Now keep in mind my dad knows about 3/5ths of nothing about guns, other than he likes them and really enjoys when we get the chance to the range together, so really I'm more calling to make sure I'm not about to make a really stupid decision.  I realize how silly it sounds for a 28yr old man to be calling his father for a second opinion on something like this...but hey sometimes I need that objective person to smack me back into reality and I sure as hell was not about to call my wife .  We talked for about 30 seconds and it pretty much ended with him telling me to buy it....  So I did.  After all I've spent $175 on much stupider stuff before, and it comes with free shipping and a sweet CMP rifle case!  While I was filling out the paperwork Matt looked up my SN to see when it was made.  My SN is 3781XXX puts it as being made in June of 1943, which makes sense with the original barrel's date stamp.  




I know this may seem silly but I'm thinking about nicknaming this rifle The Pheonix or Lazarus since I'll hopefully successfully resurrect it from the dead.  Pheonix seems more fitting, after all I'm going to make it better than it was before since I want to basically build this as a NM 1903A4gery.  I'm not planning on shooting any CMP competitions with it as none are close by for me to go to, but I will probably build it to keep within CMP vintage sniper rifle specs just in case I do shoot one or if I ever sell it (HAH NEVER!).  Now the research and parts hunt begins.  I have already ordered a redfield 1 piece scope mount for it (about as close to the original as you can get), and I will probably order a '1903A4 bent bolt assembly" from Numrich tomorrow (it's not a real one from what I've read, but it works well enough).  And lastly the longer term search for a Weaver 330c and the period correct rings to go with it.  I'm most likely going to pay a gunsmith to do the re-barreling, perhaps chuckindenver if he's really in the Denver area, possibly even re-park the barrel.  I don't mind parkerizing myself, but if the cost is low enough I'll probably just pay someone else to do it and save myself some time.  I'm debating about getting a CMP stock set to go with this rifle and keeping the drill rifle stock separate.  I know it won't be CMP match legal but part of me does want to buy a Timney trigger for it.


 

So yeah, sorry about the wall o text and no pictures of the rifle.  I forgot to snap some, but when it gets delivered on Tuesday I'll get some then.

Sounds like you scored and can't wait to see how the project goes.

Since you're going to be making it better than before, you should name it Steve.

Steve Austin, from the 6 Million Dollar Man.

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I am just finishing up my project.  I bought a drill rifle about 6 years ago from Dupage Trading.  I did some of the work myself such as cutting off the old cutoff and using a dremel to remove the welds. I had Dave Ferrante at Heart Mountain Precision do the re-barrel and re-parkerizing on the rifle.  He is one of the best M14 and M1 Garand smiths around so I knew he would do a good job.  I got the bolt from Chuckindenver, he is the expert on these restorations so you defiantly can't go wrong with having him do the work.  I didn't care that the stainless welds did not take the parkerizing.  I don't plan on selling it and if it ever does get sold I want the person to know what they are getting.  I used a NOS Keystone scant stock from Numrich.  I am still trying to decide what to do for the scope.  It has been fun but somewhat expensive.  When it is all said and done you will probably be paying a little more than buying the rifle from Gibbs or Creedmor but you know what you have.

Figure around $200 for a Criterion or NOS barrel plus another $100 for smith work on the barrel.  
Re=parking is anywhere from $75-150
Turned bolt from Chuckindenver $200, I suggest going with his bolt as you know it will be done right.
D&T around $50-75
Base $50-80
Scope?????.  The reproduction Redfield 330 Leatherwood scopes go around $275-325.  The weaver K2.5 around going up in price around $100-125, Lyman Alaskan around going for $350-500
Stock can be anywhere from 100-300.  I bought a damaged stock from Numrich and did the wood work myself.  Stock and handguard cost me around $120.  Stocks from CMP are good with some fitting, they are 1903 stocks so you would have to mill out for the 1903A3 handguard ring.  CMP C-stocks going for $150 plus shipping.

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You've got a beauty of a rifle.  The more research I do, the more I'm thinking about just going through Chuck for almost everything since he's a hour and a half from where I live, and while this rifle won't have much re-sale value as a clone/drill rifle rebuild having it built by a reputable smith does add some more value to it.  Getting the rebarrel, D&T, and bolt from him at about $645 total (includes rifle, less scope/base/rings) reusing my current stock set.  

Great thread!!

What do you guys think I should do for glass, go vintage or go repo?  My preference is for either a Weaver 330 or a M73 repo, mostly because that's what I envision when I think of a 1903A4.  The Weaver K2.5 is a backup option which in comparison they are much more affordable than a 330.  

The M73G2 repo's apparently are leaps and bounds better than the first ones that came out on the market with the Gibbs rifles, and they're pretty much a true to form replica of the real deal (minus the markings of course).  

 
HiLux is up to the M73G4 now... But honestly I'd opt for the M82 repro.  The Lyman Alaskan / M82 is superior to the 330 and it is my understanding that the new M82 reproductions feature 1/2 moa adjustments whereas originals were 1 moa.  The M82 also allows you to place the turrets forward of the front ring, allowing for good eye relief when shooting prone and also for operation of the safety.  


I have a Lyman Alaskan on my 03A4orgery.  

I am debating with my self on what scope to use also.  I am starting to lean toward the M84 reproduction scope, sportsmans guide has them for around $375.  I have tried bidding on Lyman Alaskans on ebay but they are usually going for the $375-500 range.  I already have the base otherwise I would strongly consider the M82 package from the CMP which includes the scope, base and rings for $375.  SWFA has the M73 replicas for $270.

I plan on shooting matches with mine so the M73s or 330s are probably out.  The the weaver K2.5 would be the most affordable but, from what I have read, it is not good for eye relief if you plan on shooting prone and the prices continue to move upward because of the demand.  

With all the drill rifles that came on the market and the vintage sniper matches, more and more people are building 1903A4 clones and looking for period correct optics which as increased the prices significantly over the past few years.

can you guys explain the advantage of the post/post and line reticle?  I just can't see how it would be preferable to a thin crosshair.

Thanks for the heads up about SWFA, didn't know they had it that cheap.

 
Once you look through these old optics, or even reproductions at the SR3 or MR1 at 300 and 600 you will realize why the post is preferable.  Due to the low power and how they were built the crosshairs tend to subtend large amounts.  The Weaver K2.5 and Lyman Alaskan both use a FFP reticle.  The 330 uses a RFP reticle as does the Unertl on the '41 sniper.  


So in some cases, (FFP) the cross wires are nearly as large as the aiming black.  This obviously makes aiming more difficult.  Many people will actually use a 6 O'clock hold with the horizontal crosswire tangent to the bottom of the bull and the vertical cross wire centering horizontally.  


With the post you can just "dot the i" just like shooting a service rifle.  The post and cross wire can be used the same way, the horizontal cross wire just helps you level things up or you can set it up to touch tangent to the aiming black and stick the end of the post into the aiming black.  


I had to repair the reticle in my lyman alaskan and used .0005" diameter tungsten semi-conductor wire.  The cross wires subtend about 1 MOA now so shooting COM with it isn't too difficult.  


Here is the view through my 2.2X Alaskan @ 640 yards.  The white panels on the barn are 36" across (same as MR1 aiming black).  




Conversely... Here is the same view through my 1941 Sniper with a Hilux 8X Unertl clone.  Please forgive the wonky cross wires.  I inadvertently launched the rear mount plunger into the reticle... Now you see why the '41's are winning Vintage Sniper...




Finally, here is the view through a HiLux M73G2 @ 100 on a SR1.

Thanks jaroot. That does make some more sense. I've actually never used a 6 o'clock hold, I have always center held on targets with iron sights.

And I figured that the 8x scopes on the 1941A1's was why they were routinely crushing the vintage sniper competitions. Better magnification than anything else on the firing line sure does go a long way to nice tight groups.

 
Yes the magnification is a huge bonus as are the thinner cross wires but the system is more complicated and prone to issues.  


I shot my A4 last year at Camp Perry in Vintage Sniper.  It was the first time I had run the gun past 200 yards and the first time I had ever fired at 300 on a target and 600 period.  I shot a 188/200 aggregate with a 99 @ 300 which at the time for me I thought was good.  So they are capable in mediocre hands.   I would fully expect to clean the 300 and shoot at least a 95 at 600 with it now as I can routinely do that with service rifle.  


One thing to mention about the fixed power scopes of the A4 is that they are prone to parallax.  Especially old optics that have been disassembled or serviced at some point.  My Alaskan suffered from that and a shift in head position caused a shift on paper.  


I will be firing my '41 at CP in VS this year (with 3 other friends)  and another group of 4 friends will run my A4.  We will see how it goes.  Both guns will shoot.  The match is an absolute blast.  

Anyone got any input on the RSM (Red Star Mountain) base and rings set or the CCOP base? I've been told the CCOP mount actually fits the receiver's curvature. I'm still going to keep looking for an original redfield, but I'm not holding out much hope.



Also can I use 1" rings with a 3/4" reducer and still be CMP VSM legal or do they have to be 3/4" rings?

 

The new Redfield bases are decent  have never looked at the others you mention.  Better than the chicom stuff that comes with the forgeries.  You can use split horizontal rings and reducers are acceptable.  

 
The new redfields come from China as well. Leupold are the only ones made in the U.S. still AFAIK.  

 
Yes, I know that.  I was just saying that IMO they are better than what is coming with the scopes from Hi-Lux.  

 
Gotcha.  Yeah I heard that even the CMP custom shop doesn't like the hi-lux mounts. From what I have been told the CCOP, despite coming from China, fits the best but doesn't use the same spacing as the redfields.

So what is the deal with this scope and mount?  They make it sound like it can mount on an 03A3 but there's no explanation.  I wasn't sure if it needs to be drilled and tapped.  I just tried to call but it was after hours, so...  I may try tomorrow.  


cmp M72  and mount

I wonder too if that scope would allow you to not have to get a new bolt.  I'm not sure how far back it has to ride.  Totally interested in this.

 
Yup it's a D&T mount.  From what I've read though the CMP Custom shop guys don't really care for the mount all that much.  The reviews on the glass are only so-so, most say get the Numrich Repo M82 instead as it's apparently better.  


As for not needing a new bolt, I don't know.  I've read that some of the scopes work better with the 03-A4gery's and do not require a new bolt handle because they can slide forwards farther than the weaver 330's.  Not sure if this is one of them.

Bummer about the drilling and tapping.  Grrrrrrr......

 
If you want no-drill, no-tap, no bent bolt then you should get this...




you will have to do some work on the stock though to allow it to fit.

Thank you!  I think I saw this one before, but wasn't sure about it.