Is it ever really accurate to say that one thing is categorically "better" than another thing? I mean except beer. Beer is definitely better than poop. For drinking.


https://youtu.be/0jEih2mAo1Y



ETA: Let's throw another wrinkle into the equation. Another factor to consider in choosing steel vs. ceramic plates is back face deformation. Both of these level III plates were hit with the same round that exceeds their rating. I'll post the tests later when I get the video edited. The specific plates were a Spartan Armaply level III+ steel plate and a Highcom 3S9 level III ceramic plate. Again, one isn't necessarily better than the other, just different.. The 3S9 can probably stop some rounds that the Spartan III+ can't. I intend to find out if it can stop M855A1, at least. The 3S9 is significantly lighter, though thicker.

Yes ceramics and composite are superior when used as personal body armor.

Sure, if .30-06 AP is a probable threat in your use case.

Until you drop the plate. Ceramic plates aren't nearly as fragile as some folks believe and it would probably still be fine. Probably.

Who pays for your armor?

I have both... if I ever have to deal with the possibility of guy hitting me in the chest with a sledge hammer... AR500 it will be.  

(I do have some 30.06 that somehow got black paint on the projectile.)

I've got 6 Walmarts in my AO and they all generally only carry XM193. They are almost always sold out.

Level III+ from AR500armor.com and TTM/Spartan stops M193. Armour Wear's III+ plate does not stop it when fired from a long barrel.

Yes for the love of god. The only thing steel has going for it is its cheaper.

Why so?

If they're both rated the same, the steel is heavier but thinner, and more durable (marginally).

What makes it better?

How is there even still a debate?  and frankly, I'm surprised steel armor companies are still in business.

Subjective question,

Like asking whats the best car, whats your favorite flavor of ice cream.

Armor is a personal choice, what your needs are, and what you can afford.

Level III or III+ plates are actually lighter than some level IV plates.

So they're thinner. Maybe heavier, but not by much. More durable and you won't die if the bad guy accidentally puts two rounds on top of each other. And yes, they're a lot cheaper. That matters, especially if Uncle Sugar isn't buying.

Exactly, and that's the point I make in the video.

They are still in business due to the uninformed masses believing everything they see on Facebook, or other internet ads. Even a company showing it stopping .308 or a shotgun slug and proclaiming to the best and most protective seems like the greatest thing since sliced bread to those who don't know any better. Then those people tell everyone else they know about this wonder armor and the cycle continues. If all you can afford is a lined steel plate, sure its better than nothing, but not something I would use to protect my life.

Who pays for your armor and under what conditions do you expect to use it?

I pay for my own, and know that I could go cheaper and have more weight or spend more money for a higher quality plate, that is going to be a lighter weight depending on protection level. I expect to use mine in training classes and on the range. For me I decided that I would rather spend more money on something I felt would provide adequate protection for threats I expect and be a lighter weight. Getting smashed by a sledgehammer and then shot at was not a determining factor in my decision, but weight, protection,and cost all were. For my uses, I decided that I could pony up the money for a higher quality plate that weighs less for the same protection level under normal use.

So is the training just entertainment?

My back prefers ceramics my health is worth more then 2,000. The only reason I'd use steel is for a carrier that sits in the trunk.

Xm193 will go right though steel from a 20 inch barrel.



I have ceramics. They get banged around in a patrol car trunk like 3 dollar whore on a daily basis. Mine are fine.

Weight and spall are the largest negatives with steel plates

For sure man. I run a composite in my rig, but I have several sets of steel. I can't tell much of a difference in training in the weight.

I was just curious if there were some specific metrics that make ceramic/composites better than steel.

Ceramics aren't that fragile. Aside from being dropped off of a 3 story building, they'll hold up to moderate abuse.

I'm still wanting someone to explain why one is substantially better than the other.

We all know about weight and spalling.

What else?

Try wearing armor for longer then a session on a static range and you'll realize why ceramics are better. They are not as fragile as everyone is making them out to be. If you NEED armor to accomplish your job/mission, you will want ceramic.  If you don't get it, then.........

Every says this, but no one can articulate why.

It's rather frustrating.

Oh, and I've spent weeks in steel armor, and we aren't talking stat ranges.







etc, etc, etc.

I have more pics, but now I'm just bragging.

Which ceramic plate do you have in your PC?

You were saying?

You actually mean fragments, not spall. Spall are pieces that can come off the back side of a plate in very specific conditions and is not generally an issue with steel body armor within its threat rating. Fragments are completely absorbed by the coating applied by all manufacturers. See the video in the OP.

Weight is a minimal difference and some steel plates are actually lighter than some ceramic plates of similar size.

See that little tank icon?

I haven't had the chance to try steel that is equal to my Velocity Systems PSA4 standalone for the front and VS-P34 for the back.
I only came to this conclusion after reading, reading, reading, and reading what the pipe hitters wear and their stories how it saved their lives.
Then I added the weight aspects of steel vs ceramic.  Being a cheeseburger operator, I'm not the fittest guy by any means, I'm reminded of saying "ounces = pounds, pounds = pain."

After 3-4 carbine dynamic classes, I'm quite satisfied with wearing them during classes.  My pain is carrying them "inside" my EDC pack vs wearing them...feels heavier than not wearing them.

I wish I can vote, but, I've never worn a steel so I refrain from voting at this time.

Stay safe

The weight difference is what I was getting at   When you consider a larger ceramic is at around 4.5 - 4.65 lbs, and steel is 3-4 lbs heavier per plate- that weight adds up. Even ESAPIS are a pound or so lighter.  That weight difference for long days and deployments means the world to me

For someone that just need random hard armor protection, the weight difference is far outweighed by the cost

I'll take the lighter weight any day

I've seen a few videos of faster 5.56 ammo ripping through steel plates. The faster ammo will get through the steel plates. I'm not saying which is better either way. I like the ceramics, they work for what i need. I didn't spend a ton on mine (240 shipped for 2 plates) and the weight difference is negligible.


Do your research and decide what you need for yourself.

As am I, but threads like this and uninformed buyers seem to keep them going strong.

Educate us?

I've yet to see anyone come up with a reasonable rebuttal.

Just takes time for perceptions to adjust.

Steel used to royally suck, but its seen a pretty rapid evolution over the last several years to a viable armor product equal to ceramic, both with different pros and cons.

This thread is a perfect example. Many still perceive steel to be inferior based on previous generations of products that indeed were inferior. It will take some time for it to lose that reputation despite being quite capable.

No. I tested AR500 steel as an armor solution over ten years ago. I immediately discarded it after those tests and we made the decision not to proceed with manufacturing. It's not some new magical development. .

Why bother? I've been doing it on here for years and the Hillbilly Gong Targets keep going strong due to creative marketing and bullshit Youtube videos.

Any day now, all of the Federal agencies and the U.S. military will catch on and switch to steel plates. Any day now.

Don't be a dickhead about it.

Link to your previous discussions on the matter, if you're incapable of typing out a few basic words supporting your argument.

The military didn't switch to .308 battle rifles or Glocks, and we all know they're good stuff.

Part of the perform here in these discussions is that people end up using cheap, uncoated level III plates as an example of all steel, forgetting that coated level III+ exists, and ESAPI as the example for ceramic plates, forgetting that not all ceramic plates are as good as ESAPI.

Not all steel is the same. The plate in that video is a level III+ plate. The videos you saw were level III.

Likewise, not all ceramic is the same.

Doesn't mean you have any substantial experience wearing armor in combat.  You may, but that tank isn't indicative of anything.  Plenty of people serve their country in support roles or far removed from combat.  The tank, if you're still active, also means that if you need armor for your job, your employer will provide it and it will be ceramic.  Just sayin'.  

Back on topic, I own ceramics and I bought my own armor.

That's true. I was just being a smartass.

I keep seeing people complain about no one explaining their position in this thread so I will try to do my best to explain my view.

Steel does not stop high velocity rounds without being VERY thick. Steel is VERY heavy. Steel requires either a spawl containing coating or front insert, adding bulk and weight. Steel needs something to pad the rear and reduce back face deformation at its limit. Steel was not available multi-curve until recently and then it loses its price advantage if you go multi-curved. Steel is defeated by bullets over 3200 fps unless the steel is thick enough to slow that bullet down under 3200 fps before exiting and still has enough thickness to withstand the energy dumped after it does so. Many level 3 steel plates fail to stop any high velocity rounds such as M193 out of a 20" barrel or .243, or 7mm mag, or .22-250 etc. Steel is also unable to stop AP ammo unless it is ridiculously thick and heavy. If you make anything thick enough it will stop any bullet... heck dirt stops bullets if its thick enough. To get weight down, steel is usually cut way down on the corners to reduce the square inches of coverage to the point of ridiculousness. Steel is a huge thermal sink if you keep it in the same car trunk you were afraid to keep a hybrid plate in and will dump heat out on you for far longer than a stand alone hybrid plate, which usually has a nice insulated padding built right in to the rear.

Straight ceramic also has spawl problems, is heavy, usually requires a soft backer, and fractures have a greater impact on its ability to stop rounds, as there is less to hold it together once it suffers bullet impacts.

Straight UHMWPE is also not the answer despite its feathery weight. It is VERY expensive. Fact is straight Dyneema/Spectra is defeated by M855 by nearly any barrel length. UHMWPE cant stop AP rounds on its own. Heck it might as well be stack of denim to AP bullets.

Fractured ceramics still stop bullets. In fact you can shoot a ceramic/hybrid plate 5 times and produce substantial fractures... way more than dropping it or taking a strong impact and it will still stop a 6th bullet as is required for its level 3 certification. Is steel more robust for dropping? Sure but short of falling off the roof of a two or three story building its a non issue. Some people worry about a hairline fracture in an x-ray test. After seeing a ceramic/hybrid plate that was already found to have a fracture under x-ray that was tested with multiple rounds of 5.56, 7.62, and 6.8 of all flavors stop a dozen rounds of mixed bullet types, at close range... I'm not concerned with single or small fractures from normal use and wear.

Some people thing that UHMWPE backers behind the ceramic, such as Dyneema or Spectra, are not suitable for leaving in a car. The truth is that it is 100% fine if left at 174 degrees F for months on end. Ceramic hybrids with Dyneema or Spectra backers are 100% duty rated at 170F. Your armor is safe in a car in summer if it is not exposed to direct sunlight through glass and/or is in a carrier.  Leaving it in a car trunk, inside a carrier is fine. Short exposure to fire does not weaken it past the first couple layers. If you drop it in boiling water and letting it soak, or toss it on a fare and let it roast, it will completely destroy it. Then again, if you fall in boiling water with your armor on, or are trapped in a burning building and catch on fire for a few minutes, you have bigger problems than ruined armor.

The best overall answer to rifle ballistic threats IMO is silicon carbide or aluminum oxide ceramic over pressed UHMWPE, multi-curved. It is comfortable and relatively light. Stand alone plates are easy to come by. The cost is not too high... especially compared to soft armor. You use stand alone in a plate carrier or ICW with soft armor underneath. Level 3+ stops both M855 and M193 threats and pretty much anything non AP one might realistically encounter. Level IV is actually less expensive due to the reduced UHMWPE content, and while it weighs closer to steel, it offers some AP and heavier caliber protection, multi-curve shape, and usually better coverage, while still weighing less.

Nothing stops everything... a 50 BMG will punch through a level IV plate, you, and the level IV plate on the other side of you.

When you weigh the options of coverage/weight/threat level I believe that a composite plate of aluminum oxide or silicon carbide over UHMWPE level 3+ plate wins. Weight is only about 4-5 pounds with full SAPI shape and curve. I also believe the added weight and cost of a real patterned and sized plate (SAPI cut of proper size) that is multi curved is better than a random 10x12 cut or a single curved plate. Good armor carriers usually don't fit all 10x12" plates, which have NO standard... the SAPI specs are a defined quantity and all are multi-curved. The best fitting plate pockets fit ONE SAPI SIZE.

To me steel is like an AK vs. an AR. It is better in one aspect of ruggedness, and it is cheaper, while being worse in every other category. The AR and hybrid plates are rugged enough for me and I'm not afraid to spend the money on something better.

He's not being a dickhead. This topic has been rehashed six ways 'til Sunday. Nothing has changed: AR500 steel is still AR500 steel. The companies selling it are relentless with their marketing, but the basics remain. Go back a few pages and you will find a few threads on the topic.

DevL,


$140, 8 lbs, stops M193 and 7.62x51mm M61 AP, stops fragmentation. Won't float, though.

Yes, he is. The same bullshit arguments keep getting dredged up. He posted on valid, but unsubstantiated argument in the GD thread, that QC varies too greatly on steel armor.

Steel and ceramic are not equal, but they each have distinct advantages and disadvantages.

Steel normalization variances are unsubstantiated? Ok, dude. Whatever. Now I know it's pointless to talk to you about this or anything else.

Yes. You have provided absolutely zero evidence to support your claim. That's what "unsubstantiated" means.

What he says makes sense. I'd still like to see something other than an opinion on it.

Specifically when talking about vendors using certified steel.

I'm sure there are some ripoffs on the market, like there are for everything else, including other armor.

I concur on all points. As I mentioned, there is some merit to the argument, but he seems to wrapped up in feelings and stick on the idea that we ought just take his word for it.

Yes, that's exactly right. You should take my word for it because I do know what I'm talking about and it sure as shit isn't based on "feels".

Ah, well, now that that's cleared up.