SAPI spec vs ESAPI spec vs other military spec plates?

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Posted: 4/25/2013 11:10:21 AM EDT

What do you guys think was the right level of protection and why (both for the .mil and for continental US/LE use)? Were the SAPI's enough, was the move to ESAPI with their AP 30cal protection the right move, or would some intermediate spec like the ISAPI or SPEAR plates with their 7.62x39 API protection be ideal? Or does the need for protection justify the XSAPI with it's tungsten core 30cal M993/995 protection but significantly increase thickness and weight? I'd love to hear some opinions.

Posted: 4/25/2013 11:18:27 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
What do you guys think was the right level of protection and why (both for the .mil and for continental US/LE use)? Were the SAPI's enough, was the move to ESAPI with their AP 30cal protection the right move, or would some intermediate spec like the ISAPI or SPEAR plates with their 7.62x39 API protection be ideal? Or does the need for protection justify the XSAPI with it's tungsten core 30cal M993/995 protection but significantly increase thickness and weight? I'd love to hear some opinions.

My opinion is that the testing should focus on all variants of 556NATO, 762x39 and 762x54R.

The 762x54R AP is actually a fairly common round in hostile places around the world. Still, if armor stops M2AP, there's a pretty good chance it will stop 762x54R AP.

Overall, I would change spec requirements on armor almost altogether.

Posted: 4/25/2013 11:22:37 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What do you guys think was the right level of protection and why (both for the .mil and for continental US/LE use)? Were the SAPI's enough, was the move to ESAPI with their AP 30cal protection the right move, or would some intermediate spec like the ISAPI or SPEAR plates with their 7.62x39 API protection be ideal? Or does the need for protection justify the XSAPI with it's tungsten core 30cal M993/995 protection but significantly increase thickness and weight? I'd love to hear some opinions.

My opinion is that the testing should focus on all variants of 762x39 and 762x54R.

The 762x54R AP is actually a fairly common round in hostile places around the world. Still, if armor stops M2AP, there's a pretty good chance it will stop 762x54R AP.

Overall, I would change spec requirements on armor almost altogether.

That definitely makes sense given the current threats folks going abroad fac.e. The one thing that would concern me about SAPI spec plates even if AP x54r ammo isnt a threat is I think they are only tested to stop LPS 7.62x54r @2350fps. Even with the lower velocity on LPS x54r, SAPI spec seems pretty good for the US though.

Posted: 4/25/2013 11:48:54 AM EDT

[#3]

While i like the weight of the SAPI i prefer the additional protection of the ESAPI, knowing its going to stop basically 99.9% of the threats out there including all of the steel core and common AP rounds. Im not 100% sure but i remember haring that the SAPI couldnt stop M855, while our enemies dont use that round currently it doesnt mean that cant change, also a big concern for LEO here in the US where that round is readily available to criminals. I think the military had the right idea of developing the XSAPI but not making them standard issue. They can always issue them if threats of that level are encountered but until then why waste the money and fatigue the soldiers with the extra weight.

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort.

Posted: 4/25/2013 12:19:04 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
While i like the weight of the SAPI i prefer the additional protection of the ESAPI, knowing its going to stop basically 99.9% of the threats out there including all of the steel core and common AP rounds. Im not 100% sure but i remember haring that the SAPI couldnt stop M855, while our enemies dont use that round currently it doesnt mean that cant change, also a big concern for LEO here in the US where that round is readily available to criminals. I think the military had the right idea of developing the XSAPI but not making them standard issue. They can always issue them if threats of that level are encountered but until then why waste the money and fatigue the soldiers with the extra weight.

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort.

Military SAPI spec plates are specifically tested to stop 7.62x51mm M80 at the muzzle, 5.56x45mm M855 at the muzzle, and 7.62x54r LPS (steel core) at 2350fps or about 200meters if I recall correctly.

Posted: 4/25/2013 3:46:11 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
While i like the weight of the SAPI i prefer the additional protection of the ESAPI, knowing its going to stop basically 99.9% of the threats out there including all of the steel core and common AP rounds. Im not 100% sure but i remember haring that the SAPI couldnt stop M855, while our enemies dont use that round currently it doesnt mean that cant change, also a big concern for LEO here in the US where that round is readily available to criminals. I think the military had the right idea of developing the XSAPI but not making them standard issue. They can always issue them if threats of that level are encountered but until then why waste the money and fatigue the soldiers with the extra weight.

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort.

Military SAPI spec plates are specifically tested to stop 7.62x51mm M80 at the muzzle, 5.56x45mm M855 at the muzzle, and 7.62x54r LPS (steel core) at 2350fps (or about 200m) if I recall correctly.

SAPI plates stop M855, we shot one in Iraq in 2003 a dozen times or so from about 10 yards with a M16A2, lots of blackface deformation but stopped all rounds.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 4/25/2013 4:03:53 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
While i like the weight of the SAPI i prefer the additional protection of the ESAPI, knowing its going to stop basically 99.9% of the threats out there including all of the steel core and common AP rounds. Im not 100% sure but i remember haring that the SAPI couldnt stop M855, while our enemies dont use that round currently it doesnt mean that cant change, also a big concern for LEO here in the US where that round is readily available to criminals. I think the military had the right idea of developing the XSAPI but not making them standard issue. They can always issue them if threats of that level are encountered but until then why waste the money and fatigue the soldiers with the extra weight.

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort.

Military SAPI spec plates are specifically tested to stop 7.62x51mm M80 at the muzzle, 5.56x45mm M855 at the muzzle, and 7.62x54r LPS (steel core) at 2350fps (or about 200m) if I recall correctly.

SAPI plates stop M855, we shot one in Iraq in 2003 a dozen times or so from about 10 yards with a M16A2, lots of blackface deformation but stopped all rounds.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I can believe it. They are specifically tested to stop M855 at 3250 or 3300fps. I'd guess because that covers friendly fire incidents out of the SAW or M16 and also means they should stop mild steel core 5.45 since that's at a lower velocity and lighter weight. The BFD doesn't surprise me though as technically SAPI's are ICW plates though some folks say they can be used stand alone. I question whether or not they will stop LPS (mild steel core) 7.62x54R at the muzzle though. Technically they are only rated to stop it at 2350fps from what I have seen though which translates to about 200 meters in the literature I have seen. I definitely wonder if they are capable of stopping that threat at closer distances anyway and why they decided to allow for the lower velocity on that round considering how common PKMs, SVDs, and Mosins are and how common the LPS projectile is.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:00:38 PM EDT

[#7]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:48:23 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Can we NOT discuss this in a place this public?

WTF are you thinking?

Everything we have talked about is open source. All the info can be found with google. Much of it posted by the .gov itself in various publications.

Posted: 4/25/2013 8:51:59 PM EDT

[#9]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:00:54 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can we NOT discuss this in a place this public?

WTF are you thinking?

Everything we have talked about is open source.

You started a what round to defeat SAPI/ESAPI thread complete with what specific round will defeat them at what distance. Kind of a one stop info booth for anyone wanting to kill GIs.

I will say this as nicely as possible, please take down the technical data.

http://www.dodsbir.net/sitis/archives_display_topic.asp?Bookmark=10954

All the info is posted on a government affiliated site and is freely available. The test protocol's are publicly posted by the DOD as well (thought the threats aren't explicitly stated in this publication):

http://www.dodig.mil/Inspections/IE/Reports/FINAL%20REPORT-%20DoD%20Testing%20Requirements%20for%20Body%20Armor-Reduced.pdf

I understand where you are coming from, but the threat info and test protocols you are talking about is already in the wild courtesy of the .gov itself. Whether or not it gets repeated here is of little consequence. If you type "SAPI V50" on google everything I have mentioned is on the first page of results. We're well beyond calling "OPSEC" when the info is on the first 3 google results.

Edit:And the thread was not "what rounds will defeat x-plate at y velocity", though that came up in the course of discussion. Actually we only talked about rated threat protection as well, not the actual V50 of a certain plate which would be a much better indication of what is required to defeat it. The point though was to discuss what folks think about the weight, size, thickness, comfort, etc relative to the publicly stated level of protection and what people would choose for themselves given the choice. I could see being concerned if that info was being posted for the XSAPI (which spec's are still classified AFAIK) or even the ESAPI (though I believe that info is in the wild as well), but as I said everything talked about is publicly available.

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:15:30 PM EDT

[#11]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction.

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:26:03 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can we NOT discuss this in a place this public?

WTF are you thinking?

Everything we have talked about is open source.

You started a what round to defeat SAPI/ESAPI thread complete with what specific round will defeat them at what distance. Kind of a one stop info booth for anyone wanting to kill GIs.

I will say this as nicely as possible, please take down the technical data.

http://www.dodsbir.net/sitis/archives_display_topic.asp?Bookmark=10954

All the info is posted on a government affiliated site and is freely available. The test protocol's are publicly posted by the DOD as well (thought the threats aren't explicitly stated in this publication):

http://www.dodig.mil/Inspections/IE/Reports/FINAL%20REPORT-%20DoD%20Testing%20Requirements%20for%20Body%20Armor-Reduced.pdf

I understand where you are coming from, but the threat info and test protocols you are talking about is already in the wild courtesy of the .gov itself. Whether or not it gets repeated here is of little consequence. If you type "SAPI V50" on google everything I have mentioned is on the first page of results. We're well beyond calling "OPSEC" when the info is on the first 3 google results.

Edit:And the thread was not "what rounds will defeat x-plate at y velocity", though that came up in the course of discussion. Actually we only talked about rated threat protection as well, not the actual V50 of a certain plate which would be a much better indication of what is required to defeat it. The point though was to discuss what folks think about the weight, size, thickness, comfort, etc relative to the publicly stated level of protection and what people would choose for themselves given the choice. I could see being concerned if that info was being posted for the XSAPI (which spec's are still classified AFAIK) or even the ESAPI (though I believe that info is in the wild as well), but as I said everything talked about is publicly available.

and now you put it all in one basket. Are you the one going to get shot? No youre not.

Did you read the DODSBIR publication? Essentially everything I posted is in there. It already is in one place. If I redact the velocity specs on the v0 will you stop shitting in the thread?

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:33:54 PM EDT

[#13]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction.

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:43:29 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Cut out the specifics(round/range/velocity) and Ill leave you ignorant ass alone.

The thread would have zero point if none of us talks about preferences in weight vs protection vs comfort/thickness. You were looking to make a call out and I showed you that the info is posted BY the DOD and the larger .gov. I tried to throw you a bone, but you insist on playing the "OPSEC!" card. You were wrong, cut your losses and move on.

Posted: 4/25/2013 9:51:16 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Cut out the specifics(round/range/velocity) and Ill leave you ignorant ass alone.

The thread would have zero point if none of us talks about preferences in weight vs protection vs comfort/thickness. You were looking to make a call out and I showed you that the info is posted BY the DOD and the larger .gov. I tried to throw you a bone, but you insist on playing the "OPSEC!" card. You were wrong, cut your losses and move on.

You can, just dont put info I mentioned in there. If I started "What size pressure cooker" thread there would be a problem. But according to you, since its open source(no Im not posting that here), that would be ok.

Posted: 4/25/2013 10:05:43 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Cut out the specifics(round/range/velocity) and Ill leave you ignorant ass alone.

The thread would have zero point if none of us talks about preferences in weight vs protection vs comfort/thickness. You were looking to make a call out and I showed you that the info is posted BY the DOD and the larger .gov. I tried to throw you a bone, but you insist on playing the "OPSEC!" card. You were wrong, cut your losses and move on.

You can, just dont put info I mentioned in there. If I started "What size pressure cooker" thread there would be a problem. But according to you, since its open source(no Im not posting that here), that would be ok.

And those exact threads are already all over the internet. Once again 5 seconds on google will get you the info. I'd imagine you'd see them here too if it didnt conflict with the rules. Once again if the info is in the wild it's out there for everyone, especially if it's on the first page of google. Pretending like that's not the case and refusing to speak about it (or allow anyone else who does to go unmolested for that matter) doesnt change that. I guess by your logic we shouldnt talk about the first issue of AQ's english language magazine because the terrorists might find out that you can learn things on the net and could use the guide in there for nefarious purposes, OMG!!!1!!11! OPSEC!!!11!!1!

None of the info in this thread is particularly sensitive regardless. SAPI's are largely out modded anyway, and we didnt discuss the specifics on the I/E/X SAPIs. Which I'm sure is in the wild to some degree as well. In fact I think the Russians did a test of current issue gear vs their's and the rounds necessary to penetrate and put it on Youtube.

Though I assume it was somewhat rigged.

The point is that you act like we are providing detailed analysis of exceptionally sensitive topics (like EW, which is a BS comparison) when everything you have taken issue with is direct copypasta from stuff the .gov puts out. If it really bothers you that that info was made public then send a letter to your senator or something, but don't shit on this thread because ruining our discussion is not going to do anything one way or the other.

Posted: 4/25/2013 10:13:05 PM EDT

[#17]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction.

Posted: 4/25/2013 10:18:59 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Cut out the specifics(round/range/velocity) and Ill leave you ignorant ass alone.

The thread would have zero point if none of us talks about preferences in weight vs protection vs comfort/thickness. You were looking to make a call out and I showed you that the info is posted BY the DOD and the larger .gov. I tried to throw you a bone, but you insist on playing the "OPSEC!" card. You were wrong, cut your losses and move on.

You can, just dont put info I mentioned in there. If I started "What size pressure cooker" thread there would be a problem. But according to you, since its open source(no Im not posting that here), that would be ok.

And those exact threads are already all over the internet. Once again 5 seconds on google will get you the info. I'd imagine you'd see them here too if it didnt conflict with the rules. Once again if the info is in the wild it's out there for everyone, especially if it's on the first page of google. Pretending like that's not the case and refusing to speak about it (or allow anyone else who does to go unmolested for that matter) doesnt change that.

None of the info in this thread is particularly sensitive regardless. SAPI's are largely out modded anyway, and we didnt discuss the specifics on the I/E/X SAPIs. Which I'm sure is in the wild to some degree as well. In fact I think the Russians did a test of current issue gear vs their's and the rounds necessary to penetrate and put it on Youtube.

Though I assume it was somewhat rigged.

The point is that you act like we are providing detailed analysis of exceptionally sensitive topics (like EW, which is a BS comparison) when everything you have taken issue with is direct copypasta from stuff the .gov puts out. If it really bothers you that that info was made public then send a letter to your senator or something, but don't shit on this thread because ruining our discussion is not going to do anything one way or the other.

Clearly you are not going to see the light...again. Mods have been notifed and they can make the call.

They were notified as soon as you showed up in the thread to play callout and OPSEC ninja. I only wish I hadn't tried to compromise with you and redacted all that. Waste of time.

Posted: 4/25/2013 11:04:31 PM EDT

[#19]

Friends like this, we dont need anymore enemies...........wtf..

Posted: 4/26/2013 12:06:03 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Friends like this, we dont need anymore enemies...........wtf..

Seriously? I quote stuff from the first three results of a google search, stuff that is from .gov publications that are totally open source, during the course of what was thus far an interesting discussion and now you two are concerned about OPSEC. First off, if it's on google in a .gov publication so that ship has sailed long ago. But that really wasn't the point. This was a callout and an attempted "gotcha" moment that didn't play out like he had hoped. The idea that posting it here makes it easier to find when its on the first three results in a google search is absurd. Do potential adversaries not have google?

ETA: And the specific velocities and threats necessary to defeat a specific plate have not been touched upon (only the threats the SAPI is rated to stop) except for the statement that m855 may defeat a SAPI, which was refuted thus starting the line of discussion that you guys are taking issue with. I dont know those specs so it would be impossible to speak with authority on. Geez.

Posted: 4/26/2013 12:39:22 AM EDT

[#21]

Odd, I don't recall anybody calling me out the last few times I've explained the velocities and rounds these plates are tested against, or when I posted direct links to documentation of testing protocols.

Posted: 4/26/2013 1:01:15 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Odd, I don't recall anybody calling me out the last few times I've explained the velocities and rounds these plates are tested against, or when I posted direct links to documentation of testing protocols.

Exactly, these plates are commonly available and many folks have tested them and posted the results on both forums and youtube. Heck I just watched a Russian guy (who shouldnt even had been able to get ESAPI's) shoot ESAPI plates with tungsten core 5.45 that he had posted on youtube (results were surprising if anyone is interested I can probly find the link). And thats setting aside the fact that I got the info from a US. gov site that pops up on google. The only plate specs that I know of that are actually classified are the XSAPI's and you dont have to be a genius to guess what they are.

No this is about B1Da calling me out and attempting to find a "gotcha moment" because we disagreed on issued armor in another thread after I refuted the claim that you could get a high quality set of full coverage (ie not conceable and even then that would be a little on the tough side) for some insanely low number (I dont remember what the specifics of the argument were). Apparently he has a chip on is shoulder about about some stupid internet disagreement. I mean that's fine, but I dont see why that has to translate into shitting on a perfectly good thread that was starting to produce some interesting discussion. Exhibit A

Clearly you are not going to see the light...again.

I've been thinking about snagging a set of level IV or ESAPI type plates (commercial versions preferably) and I wanted to see if folks with legitimate experience though the weight, thickness, coverage, comfort, protection trade offs between the ESAPI and the SAPI (of which I already have a commercial version or very close to it, PPM SAPI aka Ceradyne Defender UG III) were worth it.

This is the type of input I was looking for. Thanks Spartikus

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort

Posted: 4/26/2013 2:50:52 AM EDT

[#23]

Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Posted: 4/26/2013 4:28:53 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
While i like the weight of the SAPI i prefer the additional protection of the ESAPI, knowing its going to stop basically 99.9% of the threats out there including all of the steel core and common AP rounds. Im not 100% sure but i remember haring that the SAPI couldnt stop M855, while our enemies dont use that round currently it doesnt mean that cant change, also a big concern for LEO here in the US where that round is readily available to criminals. I think the military had the right idea of developing the XSAPI but not making them standard issue. They can always issue them if threats of that level are encountered but until then why waste the money and fatigue the soldiers with the extra weight.

Overall i think the threat level they are trying to stop is more than enough and they should focus more on coverage area, decreasing the weight and better mobility/comfort.

Military SAPI spec plates are specifically tested to stop 7.62x51mm M80 at the muzzle, 5.56x45mm M855 at the muzzle, and 7.62x54r LPS (steel core) at 2350fps (or about 200m) if I recall correctly.

SAPI plates stop M855, we shot one in Iraq in 2003 a dozen times or so from about 10 yards with a M16A2, lots of blackface deformation but stopped all rounds.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Very interesting, thats good to know, ive heard stories about the SAPI not stopping the M855 but never seen an official test data for or against that claim.

I book marked the sites you posted, lots of good info ill have to sit down and read it all but i did catch the part about SAPIs being tested vs M855. I really i wish i would have had this info before i bought my ESAPI plates for my vest, probably would have went with the lighter and cheaper SAPI instead, especially since im not MIL or LE i really dont have to worry about any armor piercing threats and was only getting the ESAPI to be 100% sure it would stop M855 as thats a very common round in the united states, whether it be coming from bad guys or the trigger happy guy at the range who cant keep his barrel pointed in a safe direction.

Also, not to get in a fight i dont see why certain people were getting upset talking about body armor, as stated earlier this info is already out on the web, most of which is official gov released documents. Plus if even the data wasent out there you could just buy SAPI and ESAPI plates yourself, heck they sell them on EBAY, surplus stores, gun shops, gun shows, etc...

Posted: 4/26/2013 7:03:08 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Posted: 4/26/2013 9:12:10 AM EDT

[#26]

EDIT: There are a few things in this thread that were better left unsaid, but not bad enough to warrant my reaction.

Posted: 4/26/2013 10:11:30 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

So some terrorist on a laptop, in a cave in Afghanistan, is going to find a thread about rifle plates on AR15.com and thats going to change the outcome of the war?

Image how dangerous this information could be if the invading aliens found it...Oh no i've said too much! Hurry everyone back to your bunkers!

Posted: 4/26/2013 10:30:25 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

Where the hell do you find M995 these days? and who uses a 20" barrel?
cell phone + arty shell would be more feasible than M995 + 20" 556

ETA: if you're going to have a paranoid moment, check out the chemicals and parts/devices being discussed in the 400 pg Boston thread

Posted: 4/26/2013 11:38:38 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

So some terrorist on a laptop, in a cave in Afghanistan, is going to find a thread about rifle plates on AR15.com and thats going to change the outcome of the war?

Image how dangerous this information could be if the invading aliens found it...Oh no i've said too much! Hurry everyone back to your bunkers!

If you knew anything you would cut the shit on some terrorist in a cave. AQ has deep intel cells. Sure from your laptop in the states its no big deal what if it is another group of boston bomber type folks who realize that the cheap mosin in the gun shop can likely cut down the swat officer wearing full plates. I don't know why you felt the need to post this up on the net. Its one thing to really talk about what is worth carrying and wearing but talking about the defeat characteristics in the same manner seem to not be of any use beside nefarious purposes.

Later it was brought up about 155 with cell phone but you aren't talking about whether the current level of issue protection is well suited or not you are simply throwing out tech data on what rounds can do what at range. Me personally I have a simple plate carrier with front and back protection. The question of a few additional ounces or pounds in full suite side neck groin ect isn't what is being questioned and that is the only real question or debate.

-edit to clarify. I have no problem talking about civilian purchase body armor that you wanna use for yourself. I feel it is very important to know what you have and what it is capable of. I don't feel this was posted in that way. I think it is all about framing. I don't buy into all the opsec stuff that bda1 was hollering about as you mentioned it is already up but there is no reason to package it in that way. Talk about what actually applies to you and maybe even cite your work making it easy to say ok this is what I have found online boom. Instead you used google fu to paint an expert badge onto yourself. What happens when the media eye is shifted to sites like this and they continue the shit about white tea party males blah blah blah and we are doing training on defeating police body armor and best ranges ect. If you don't think your 1st amendment rights are just as much as the 2nd then you need to sit down and take another good look.

Posted: 4/26/2013 12:21:31 PM EDT

[#30]

Did I miss something from earlier in the thread?

I was under the impression this thread was supposed to be about people making the most educated choice when it comes to purchasing a plate.

This is supposed to be the gear forum, not what's the best round to shoot cops/military forum. If I missed something directing this thread towards the latter, please point it out to me.

Posted: 4/26/2013 1:09:02 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

Where the hell do you find M995 these days? and who uses a 20" barrel?
cell phone + arty shell would be more feasible than M995 + 20" 556

ETA: if you're going to have a paranoid moment, check out the chemicals and parts/devices being discussed in the 400 pg Boston thread

There is a step by step guide that the bombers most likely used in AQ's inspire magazine. It's just kinda silly to sweat info that is already in the wild on the net. I get keeping sensitive info confidential, but once it's out it's out. You can't put the smoke back in the ciggarette.

Posted: 4/26/2013 1:14:43 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Did I miss something from earlier in the thread?

I was under the impression this thread was supposed to be about people making the most educated choice when it comes to purchasing a plate.

This is supposed to be the gear forum, not what's the best round to shoot cops/military forum. If I missed something directing this thread towards the latter, please point it out to me.

No. No one ever talked about defeating a plate (at least as a goal, someone mentioned M855, but that can be stopped by every plate we are discussing so it's moot). Only the threats they are designed to stop along with their other characteristics as a means to evaluate one vs the other and the cost/benefits of each choice. AFAIK the rounds/velocties/ranges necessary to defeat plates aren't publicly released by the .gov (though they may be out there, I dont know) but while one may be able to infer or guess what they are, it didn't even come up.

Posted: 4/26/2013 1:25:44 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

So some terrorist on a laptop, in a cave in Afghanistan, is going to find a thread about rifle plates on AR15.com and thats going to change the outcome of the war?

Image how dangerous this information could be if the invading aliens found it...Oh no i've said too much! Hurry everyone back to your bunkers!

If you knew anything you would cut the shit on some terrorist in a cave. AQ has deep intel cells. Sure from your laptop in the states its no big deal what if it is another group of boston bomber type folks who realize that the cheap mosin in the gun shop can likely cut down the swat officer wearing full plates. I don't know why you felt the need to post this up on the net. Its one thing to really talk about what is worth carrying and wearing but talking about the defeat characteristics in the same manner seem to not be of any use beside nefarious purposes.

Later it was brought up about 155 with cell phone but you aren't talking about whether the current level of issue protection is well suited or not you are simply throwing out tech data on what rounds can do what at range. Me personally I have a simple plate carrier with front and back protection. The question of a few additional ounces or pounds in full suite side neck groin ect isn't what is being questioned and that is the only real question or debate.

-edit to clarify. I have no problem talking about civilian purchase body armor that you wanna use for yourself. I feel it is very important to know what you have and what it is capable of. I don't feel this was posted in that way. I think it is all about framing. I don't buy into all the opsec stuff that bda1 was hollering about as you mentioned it is already up but there is no reason to package it in that way. Talk about what actually applies to you and maybe even cite your work making it easy to say ok this is what I have found online boom. Instead you used google fu to paint an expert badge onto yourself. What happens when the media eye is shifted to sites like this and they continue the shit about white tea party males blah blah blah and we are doing training on defeating police body armor and best ranges ect. If you don't think your 1st amendment rights are just as much as the 2nd then you need to sit down and take another good look.

I own a commercial variant of a SAPI spec plate. So I would say the spec is applicable, directly to an item that I already own (and that I have had and ongoing thread about). That was the genesis of my question.

I didn't make myself out to be an expert, I simply stated info I've read. When asked about, I posted the link. We're not writing peer reviewed journal articles here so I don't see the point of citing unless plagiarism or copyright comes into play. I'm not sure what more you want from me. No one had a problem with this thread until B1Da came in screaming opsec. The question was framed neutrally, I'd argue it's the way some folks are reading it thats the problem.

As for the issue of the media twisting discussions here into something they are not, you're on a site about "assault rifles". Do you really think they don't have all the material they would need to paint us as "Tea Part terrorists" if so inclined?

ETA: Just to clarify as it isn't totally apparent that you are aware of it from your post, me and Spartikus are different people. If you knew that in your reply and were directing the rest of the reply at me (which it seems you were) then disregard.

Posted: 4/26/2013 1:26:43 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

I'm still confused about why your jimmies got so rustled over the discussion of SAPI spec plates that was going on when you chimed in. Are 10 year old SAPI spec plates still being fielded in the sandbox?

Posted: 4/26/2013 5:09:25 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

You just put that out there. I have no idea if that's true or what can defeat an ESAPI. All we have talked about is the threats the plates CAN stop not what they cant.

What, are you going with the "if you can't beat them join them" school of debate now?

Posted: 4/26/2013 5:53:46 PM EDT

[#36]

In (hopefully) the interests of the discussion at hand, I would like to add something from personal experience.

Some of the soldiers that I have met over time did not know the first damned thing about the armor they were wearing. I had one soldier try to tell me that PE/Aramid hybrids were "stupid" and that the military was perfectly happy with the steel plates that they had, while he was wearing a ceramic/PE hybrid.

So discussions like this one can serve the purpose of educating people who rely on the gear, be it soldier, LEO, or civilian, who might not know what kind of performance they can truly expect from the gear that's supposed to save their life. If I know that my armor cannot stop M855 and that the bad guy has an AR-15, I might behave differently, depending on the circumstances, and that's just one example from an infinite number of possibilities.

Posted: 4/26/2013 6:08:00 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Some of the soldiers that I have met over time did not know the first damned thing about the armor they were wearing. I had one soldier try to tell me that PE/Aramid hybrids were "stupid" and that the military was perfectly happy with the steel plates that they had, while he was wearing a ceramic/PE hybrid.

Met plenty of soldiers like this. My only point of dissent is that we're, almost exclusively, talking about plates for civilian purchase in this thread...correct?
There's a big difference in knowledge when someone is spending $200-1000 of their own money on a product vs their issued PPE.

Posted: 4/26/2013 6:14:21 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
SNIP

Your comment just reminded me of something you may have knowledge of from your time in the industry. Do you know anything about any of the major .mil plate contractors ever delivering steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI spec plates? I know I have read about them supposedly existing, and I even ONCE saw some steel hybrid 6x8 ESBI side plates on eBay (and I really want to say they were made by Armorworks), but I have never seen a full size steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI anywhere. I kind of doubt that a steel hybrid plate could get down to spec weight, but I could be wrong...or they could be myth.

Posted: 4/26/2013 6:29:49 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

So some terrorist on a laptop, in a cave in Afghanistan, is going to find a thread about rifle plates on AR15.com and thats going to change the outcome of the war?

Image how dangerous this information could be if the invading aliens found it...Oh no i've said too much! Hurry everyone back to your bunkers!

You are really ignorant of who does come on this site to include terrorists.

Posted: 4/26/2013 6:44:28 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
In (hopefully) the interests of the discussion at hand, I would like to add something from personal experience.

Some of the soldiers that I have met over time did not know the first damned thing about the armor they were wearing. I had one soldier try to tell me that PE/Aramid hybrids were "stupid" and that the military was perfectly happy with the steel plates that they had, while he was wearing a ceramic/PE hybrid.

So discussions like this one can serve the purpose of educating people who rely on the gear, be it soldier, LEO, or civilian, who might not know what kind of performance they can truly expect from the gear that's supposed to save their life. If I know that my armor cannot stop M855 and that the bad guy has an AR-15, I might behave differently, depending on the circumstances, and that's just one example from an infinite number of possibilities.

Excellent points

Posted: 4/26/2013 6:49:43 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
SNIP

Your comment just reminded me of something you may have knowledge of from your time in the industry. Do you know anything about any of the major .mil plate contractors ever delivering steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI spec plates? I know I have read about them supposedly existing, and I even ONCE saw some steel hybrid 6x8 ESBI side plates on eBay (and I really want to say they were made by Armorworks), but I have never seen a full size steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI anywhere. I kind of doubt that a steel hybrid plate could get down to spec weight, but I could be wrong...or they could be myth.

Really? Do you have any more info on those. I have never seen or even heard of steel plates being used in SAPI, ESAPI, ESBI, or substitute plates (though that certainly doesnt me they dont exist). I'd be interested in reading more about them though. I kinda though steel was abandoned for western militaries some time ago, and that even LE had largely abandoned steel in the last 10 years or so.

Posted: 4/26/2013 9:15:59 PM EDT

[#42]

So after re-reading the thread Ive come to the conclusion I overreacted to certain elements. Some of the things mentioned in the thread didnt need to be said, but they are open source and not so confidential that it warranted my response. The source of my frustration stems from an on going threat in my AO, but thats not a excuse to vent in the OPs thread.

Sorry for the thread hijack guywiththeak. IM sent.

For what its worth, you never know who is going to read these threads and where the info will go. Nor do you know how they can piece together information to come to potentially dangerous conclusions.

Posted: 4/27/2013 5:05:22 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

Well since no one is going to take it down. M995+M16A2>ESAPI. Yes, this is all about me, you and some old disagreement and not about one of my soldiers or myself getting shot under the mentioned circumstance. Thanks for putting that out there. Real patriot, you are.

ARFCOM has reached a new low. Take a bow.

I'm still confused about why your jimmies got so rustled over the discussion of SAPI spec plates that was going on when you chimed in. Are 10 year old SAPI spec plates still being fielded in the sandbox?

Last deployment was 06-07', I had ESAPI plates. Probably only indigenous military and police use our leftover SAPI plates.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 4/27/2013 5:29:53 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

So after re-reading the thread Ive come to the conclusion I overreacted to certain elements. Some of the things mentioned in the thread didnt need to be said, but they are open source and not so confidential that it warranted my response. The source of my frustration stems from an on going threat in my AO, but thats not a excuse to vent in the OPs thread.

Sorry for the thread hijack guywiththeak. IM sent.

For what its worth, you never know who is going to read these threads and where the info will go. Nor do you know how they can piece together information to come to potentially dangerous conclusions.

Stay safe over there.

Posted: 4/27/2013 8:33:34 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
SNIP

Your comment just reminded me of something you may have knowledge of from your time in the industry. Do you know anything about any of the major .mil plate contractors ever delivering steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI spec plates? I know I have read about them supposedly existing, and I even ONCE saw some steel hybrid 6x8 ESBI side plates on eBay (and I really want to say they were made by Armorworks), but I have never seen a full size steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI anywhere. I kind of doubt that a steel hybrid plate could get down to spec weight, but I could be wrong...or they could be myth.

Nope. I never once heard of steel for body armor being issued to .mil folks. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but I never encountered it.

Posted: 4/27/2013 8:34:22 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So after re-reading the thread Ive come to the conclusion I overreacted to certain elements. Some of the things mentioned in the thread didnt need to be said, but they are open source and not so confidential that it warranted my response. The source of my frustration stems from an on going threat in my AO, but thats not a excuse to vent in the OPs thread.

Sorry for the thread hijack guywiththeak. IM sent.

For what its worth, you never know who is going to read these threads and where the info will go. Nor do you know how they can piece together information to come to potentially dangerous conclusions.

Stay safe over there.

Indeed.

Posted: 4/27/2013 12:19:46 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's end the GD type BS in this thread.

There has been nothing posted that violates the rules, and having information that allows people to to buy the best quality gear is not a problem. As pointed out, this isn't anything top secret.

Thanks

I'm still confused about why your jimmies got so rustled over the discussion of SAPI spec plates that was going on when you chimed in. Are 10 year old SAPI spec plates still being fielded in the sandbox?

Last deployment was 06-07', I had ESAPI plates. Probably only indigenous military and police use our leftover SAPI plates.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Ceradyne just got a big contract to supply SAPI pates (I believe actual SAPI spec , but I may be wrong) to the Afghans. There was an article about it somewhere I think.

Posted: 4/27/2013 3:54:08 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
SNIP

Your comment just reminded me of something you may have knowledge of from your time in the industry. Do you know anything about any of the major .mil plate contractors ever delivering steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI spec plates? I know I have read about them supposedly existing, and I even ONCE saw some steel hybrid 6x8 ESBI side plates on eBay (and I really want to say they were made by Armorworks), but I have never seen a full size steel hybrid SAPI or ESAPI anywhere. I kind of doubt that a steel hybrid plate could get down to spec weight, but I could be wrong...or they could be myth.

Really? Do you have any more info on those. I have never seen or even heard of steel plates being used in SAPI, ESAPI, ESBI, or substitute plates (though that certainly doesnt me they dont exist). I'd be interested in reading more about them though. I kinda though steel was abandoned for western militaries some time ago, and that even LE had largely abandoned steel in the last 10 years or so.

Unfortunately not. The plates were steel hybrid, either steel/aramid or steel/PE (like the AMI TAC3S). I think I remember seeing a .mil report floating around some time ago about small quanitites of full size SAPI or ESAPI plates procured for first article testing with that same construction, but details were few. I have a hard time believing a steel hybrid plate could get down to SAPI or ESAPI spec weight.

Posted: 4/28/2013 4:42:48 AM EDT

[#49]

It's been a while since I've looked over the specs, but do they just reference ballistic protection or is that multi-curve shape a part of the spec too?
CHRIS

Posted: 4/28/2013 9:08:57 AM EDT

[#50]

The info I've seen didn't mention shape, or I just didn't see it. But all I really ever read were testing protocols, not the actual contract specs which is where I would assume size/shape are set out in ink.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SAPI spec vs ESAPI spec vs other military spec plates? (Page 1 of 2)

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