Looking to get my first over/under 12 ga.  Looking at getting a used H&R 1212.  It was made in Spain imported in the 80's.  Currently  my budget is closer to the $500  mark than the $1000 mark.  I figured older Spanish was probably better than current turkish built.  So what is the thought on it?

No. Just no. Do not buy a $500 over/under shotgun. You will regret it . . . unless, of course, you somehow manage to buy a $1,000 shotgun for $500 . . . Do not buy a Spanish over/under. Do not buy any flavor of Mossberg or Savage. Do not buy a Stoeger.

Under $1,000 your O/U choices are:

• a sweetheart deal on a used Browning or Beretta - yes, the deals are out there but hard to come by. You'll probably only find it when you're not looking, though.
• a Japanese Miroku or Charles Daly (made by Miroku) from the late 60s, early 70s -- great guns but they will have fixed chokes. Parts and repairs could definitely be a problem
• a Japanese SKB -- $600-$800 will get you a fixed choke gun. You can probably find something with choke tubes for $1k. Great guns. SKB also made shotguns for Weatherby and sometimes you can get good deals on these (remember, Japanese only). These are no longer  made but repairs and parts are still available.
• a Japanese Winchester/Nikko -- again, expect fixed chokes and virtually no parts/repair support.
• a NEW CZ shotgun. You want to buy a new one because you'll probably need the warranty.


If you really can only spend $500, forget over/unders. You don't have the budget for a good over/under. You only have the budget for a shitty one. Far better to spend your $500 on a GOOD SHOTGUN. Find yourself a clean Remington 1100 with an unpopular barrel. Spend $300 for the gun. Sell the barrel on eBay for whatever it will bring and buy a target contour, vent rib, screw-choke barrel. You'll spend $500 but you'll have a gun that is WORTH $500 . . . and always will be. There are other good choices but the point is to spend your $500 on a good gun, not a shitty gun.

There will be plenty of people that come along shortly and tell you how their stoeger/mossturd/etc... has shot thousands of rounds with no problems.  I don't believe them, nor have I ever seen anyone shoot more than the occasional game of skeet/trap/sporting clays with one.

The reasons why;
Barrel indexing.  This is a process that takes a skilled craftsman to properly do.

Proper materials.  Soft cheap steel doesn't lend well to a design that puts all the pressure on a locking style receiver without a bolt.

O/U's and SXS's are essentially Swiss watches that you shoot.  It takes skilled labor more than a few hours per gun to make a reliable gun.

A quality entry level O/U would be a Beretta 686 or a Browning Citori, these guns are 50k-75k guns in terms of rounds shot before you should start to see any significant maintenance issues.  1800 bucks is a bargain when you consider the amount of abuse these guns will take.  

$500, you are better off with a used semi-auto.

I agree. Firing pin issues or trigger problems typically shut them down first . . . That said, I have a friend who shoots a Baikal. I have personally shot a few thousand rounds alongside this fella and his Russian shotgun . . . Strong like wife. Pretty like tractor . . .

I will skip echoing what everyone else has said and say this.

I don't know much about cheap Spanish o/us but I do know to never!!! buy a cheap Spanish sxs with a single trigger and generally avoid the same with double triggers unless you enjoy making new firing pins.

Just had a guy bring back a Stoeger and another guy bring back the Stevens 555 for repairs.  Both of them shot under 1000 rounds and craps breaking on them.

If you $500 for a shotgun, buy they best shotgun you can for $500.

It won't be an O/U.

If you want an O/U with any reliabiltiy / durability / etc.  Save more money.   Beretta and Browning are relatively safe bets.  There are lots and lots of O/U's that are a bit cheaper, who knows you might get lucky.

I will say that the CZ/Huglu shotguns of late SEEM to be doing better than the early ones.  A friend of mine has a CZ 20 ga. o/u.  The ejector stop broke on it - sheared right off.  CZ-usa was really good - they sent a replacement along for free.  It doesn't fit - as in not even close.  I managed to modify one to make the gun a extract only on that bbl.  Without completely re-machining a  chunk of tool steel and making a new stop it will never be an ejector gun.

Another friend of mine used to laugh at us knuckleheads with expensive shotguns.  He bought a baikal and was going to show us you just didn't have to spend the $ we have on shotguns.  It was fine for duck hunting, but after having the thing crap out on one tournament too many he bought a set of 4 Brownings for skeet (he doesn't like subgage tubes)

It's something of a crapshoot with cheaper o/u's, the basic design may be ok - it's the execution of the design thats the problem.  With any manufacturer there is a chance you're going to get a lemon.  The cheaper you go & the more you shoot it, the higher the chances of getting a boat anchor are.  So, it's really a question of risk.   How much risk of failure are you willing to take on your $500 investment?  Ruger tried to build an o/u for a price point - they couldn't do it.  The RRL is gone again - they found out you just can't put the kind of quality into an o/u at the reduced price point they were aiming for.  The gun cost more to manufacture than they wanted to sell it for, and there was no shortage of warranty work they have to eat also.

my $0.02 anyway.  I shoot skeet, so I've seen what happens to 'entry' level o/u's when they get used a lot.  They just don't hold up.

Why are you buying this?  I have a nice O/U.  O/U shotguns are really elegant and neat.  However cheaper O/Us are not that good.  Most people looking to get an O/U would be better served with just a good soft shooting autoloader.  

Having said all that,m in your price range maybe a used Red Label? A CZ?

In my opinion this poster is right on the money.   Don't buy a cheap O/U.

 
I was scrolling down to say the same thing.


The above poster sums it up, very good advice/recommendations.


I own a Citori, Winchester Diamond, Charles Daly (Italian made?) and a Miroku. I like them in that order FWIW.

The used 1100 is a good  recommendation.  I had one of those, I did what he suggests, sold off my fixed choke modified barrel, got a new vent rib Rem Choke.  Great shotgun wish I would not have sold it.  The worst thing you can say about an 1100 - in my opinion - is they are heavy and cleaning them is more of a pain.  But they'll run forever.

Just like the others have said.  Do not get a cheap O/U.    l am sure Someone will come out somewhere saying that they have one and it has never broken down on them.  If they do they are a liar or very lucky.   You would be better off saving up a few more months and getting a quality gun.   The 2 issues with a cheap O/U is 1) crapy parts and 2) the inability to get replacement parts when it does break because it will break.

Also remember you can sometimes get older Beretta's and Browning for around $1,000 - $1,200 at times.   They will usually be a basic field gun but work great if you get them from a quality dealer that knows shotguns.

You could also look for an older Ruger red label.  You can usually find them under $1,000 and they come with a lifetime warranty from a company that will be around when it needs to be fixed.

OP- Look for CZ Redhead shotguns and you'll be very happy.

Thanks for the advise, I am wanting this for taking out for grouse and bunnies.  Honestly it would only be seeing 2-3 boxes a year.  I already have an 11-87 but find the O/U more aesthetically pleasing.  I also have an 870 but it isn't set up for hunting.  There isn't a whole lot around locally.  There is a Citori 12 ga I found locally for $850 I am going to try to check it out tomorrow, the only problem i can think of with it is the barrel length being 30" which wouldn't be ideal for dense woods.

I bet a new CZ would be great for your uses. Have you considered a 20 gauge?

Regarding barrel length: the reason for the long barrels these days is that longer barrel put more weight forward and change the balance of the gun. The longer barrels smooth out your swing and help reduce the tendency to stop swinging when you pull the trigger. In other words, they're ideal for the various clays games. As a hunter you might appreciate shorter barrels, but I wouldn't go shorter than 28". That's plenty short and resale on 26" barrel guns is horrible (it's bad enough with 28" barrels).

Citori is great, if there's nothing wrong mechanically that would be a good choice.

Franchi and Winchester make O/U for about $1000

+1

Citori's are great guns, but don't overlook gun fit. If possible, shoot it before you buy. Not everybody shoots a Citori well. I struggled with the one I had.

If you're looking for a hunting gun and the round count will not be high then a CZ could fill the bill.

I had considered the 20 ga however being in Alaska I feel the 12 ga is more prudent in case I have a need to use slugs. I really like the idea of the 26" barrels for what I have planned max I really want to go is 28" but who knows I am gonna check out the citori and feel them out.  The 30" would probably be good if I decide to waterfowl with it but that's currently what I use the 1187 for.  I will have to look into the cz's some more I think the only dealer up here is about 350 miles away.

I bought a Baikal single barrel break action trap gun for $100......and no complaints/issues (then again, i havent put 1000 rds through it yet). I was curious about their o/u....

what about ruger red label? (ive seen them at or right under $1000, but it seems similar to the "sweetheart" deals mentioned edited since covered by earlier poster

anyone know much about Husqvarna? (made in italy and sold in sweden is all ive found)

Well I didn't make it to see the citori  in time.  So I now have my sights set on a 2013 new in box CZ Canvasback.  I was looking at both the canvasback and the canvasback gold and I like that the canvas back has ejector instead of extractors as four d on the canvasback gold, I also like the butt stock shape of the canvasback over the gold and I dislike the gold inlaid birds on the receiver of the gold.  Being that the 2013 canvasback is new in box I should be able to still get the 5 year warranty and b from what I could glean off shotgunworld the canvasback seems to be a good o/u.  We will see I still have to line up an ffl and find out what shipping will be.

I missed out on a $700 Ruger Red label at a pawn shop because I didn't have $700 in the budget at the time. Point is if you look around you can find deals on more expensive guns.

You dodged a bullet.

Are the old Red Labels any good?

With the exception of the 28 gauge model, I rarely hear much good about them from experienced shooters. Typically, I hear either 1.) the damn thing kept breaking or 2.) didn't fit. I don't believe I've ever met a high volume shooter who raved about his Red Label.

Yeah - I shoot skeet 1-2 times a month at my club and basically I never see these. 1100's, nice over unders, autoloaders like A400's, 870s and Mossbergs new guys bring, a few CZ's that bargain hunters use - never a Ruger Red Label.